What's more dangerous? Taxiway or Overflight+

[PeanuckleCRJ]

john,
you said it is bunk and you said my assertion was false because it was not the deadliest... you missed my whole point. this incident has nothing to do with death but alot to do with complete absurdity. that is what a blunder is. A blunder is a fumbled punt. a botched snap, and on and on.

yes, it is the biggest blunder of modern airlines times.. name one bigger!

Well, stalling an airplane on approach b/c neither pilot was paying attention and then totally botching the recovery...subsequently killing 50 people.... i'd place that one higher.

Playing around like little kids in a CRJ, taking it up to 41,000 feet, stalling it, botching the recovery and trying to hide it from the feds- killing both on board. Yep, that's a bigger blunder.

Not checking your heading prior to takeoff and killing 51 people... yep, that's a bigger blunder.


Maybe you meant to say "currently all over the news but no one is going to remember it 6 months from now?"

 

[Dan Roman]

YGTBSM, so the other doesn't involve human error? the other neglect?
i think they both involved both, but one could happen to most anybody, but the other was so grossly unconscionable, so derelict, so wantonly negligent, so pathetic and so lied about. 188 crew is trying to desparately save face even though they're through. they were sleeping and any disgusting attempt to defend them is beyond comprehension. In their vile attempt to pervert the truth and explain away the biggest blunder of modern airline times, they allow themselves to ride out their lives as shams, as liars and hopelessly resigned to dumb anguish. Like OJ, maybe there will be a deathbed confession, a petition for mercy, and an request to be forgiven. just tell the truth. nobody overflies by 150 miles. if you were awake , wouldn't you ever be slightly curious as to the time remaining on such a long leg. they're liars plain and simple. Man up 188, Man up.

I'll bet you watch a lot of FOX News.....

 

[800Dog]

The taxiway could have been very bad if someone else was on it at the time. The question is: Was the Delta crew absolutely certain that the taxiway was clear before they landed on it? It seems like a dumb question but since they landed on a taxi way in the first place it is not that much of a stretch to wonder if they knew for certain that their path was clear (especially because it was dark).

We all know what the proper response is if ever asked this question in an investigation, but none of us will ever really know what the crew saw or did't see in ATL.

I had a fed on the js the other day out of ATL. He said the controllers in ATL were aware that the 767 was lined up for taxiway Mike and said nothing. Theywere aware of the medical emergency and chose to say nothing as the taxiway was clear. Also, fed said the fo was heads down loading 27r in the box after the sidestep was approved. Should have just stuck with 27L as planned after a long night of flying and fatigue set in. FO should have been out as well. See runway, land airplane. Not a difficult concept.

 

[ATLboeing]

With the issue of fatigue being in the spotlight lately, wouldn't falling asleep be easier to explain and defend, as opposed to being on laptops and not paying attention? There have been numerous instances in the past of pilots falling asleep in the cockpit, and the public is receiving more and more information on this issue through the media. We all know it's possible to still end up dog tired even after a long layover and having actually gotten plenty of sleep the night before. The human body can still become fatigued due to differing sleep cycles from the previous few weeks, so even though you had a 19hr layover, falling asleep in the cockpit is still a possiblity though you showed up to work feeling just fine.
With that said, if I were one of the NWA pilots, I think I would much rather defend me being dead tired and falling asleep than say that we were using our laptops. Many on here are saying these guys should "man up" and tell the truth. Well, I think it took a lot of courage to come forth and say they were on their computers. Much more difficult to admit than falling asleep, in my opinion. I would think the flying public might actually have some sympathy for tired pilots, even after a long layover. They were'nt out drinking and ALPA could easily get on the news and start talking about circadium sleep cylces and explain the effects of interuptions.
So yes, I think these guys told the truth.
Now it's our responsiblity as professionals to take what we've learned from two unfortunate events the past couple of weeks and remind ourselves not to let our guard down. Why do highly educated, highly trained professionals make seemingly "stupid" mistakes? How is it a doctor can amputate the wrong limb, or leave behind a medical instrument? The same way a commercial airline crew overflies their destination, they let down their guard and got complacent.
Now, we can be high-schoolish and come on this board and name call, airline bash, and talk about how these two should be crucified, or we can be professionals and learn something.
My two cents. Rant over.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

With the issue of fatigue being in the spotlight lately, wouldn't falling asleep be easier to explain and defend, as opposed to being on laptops and not paying attention? There have been numerous instances in the past of pilots falling asleep in the cockpit, and the public is receiving more and more information on this issue through the media. We all know it's possible to still end up dog tired even after a long layover and having actually gotten plenty of sleep the night before. The human body can still become fatigued due to differing sleep cycles from the previous few weeks, so even though you had a 19hr layover, falling asleep in the cockpit is still a possiblity though you showed up to work feeling just fine.
With that said, if I were one of the NWA pilots, I think I would much rather defend me being dead tired and falling asleep than say that we were using our laptops. Many on here are saying these guys should "man up" and tell the truth. Well, I think it took a lot of courage to come forth and say they were on their computers. Much more difficult to admit than falling asleep, in my opinion. I would think the flying public might actually have some sympathy for tired pilots, even after a long layover. They were'nt out drinking and ALPA could easily get on the news and start talking about circadium sleep cylces and explain the effects of interuptions.
So yes, I think these guys told the truth.
Now it's our responsiblity as professionals to take what we've learned from two unfortunate events the past couple of weeks and remind ourselves not to let our guard down. Why do highly educated, highly trained professionals make seemingly "stupid" mistakes? How is it a doctor can amputate the wrong limb, or leave behind a medical instrument? The same way a commercial airline crew overflies their destination, they let down their guard and got complacent.
Now, we can be high-schoolish and come on this board and name call, airline bash, and talk about how these two should be crucified, or we can be professionals and learn something.
My two cents. Rant over.

That's exactly why I think they are telling the truth. It is a much harder road to admit you were breaking company policy and on your laptops than take the easy out and say "we fell asleep." This is why aussiepilot looks so weird jumping all over this... it's like a dog barking up the wrong tree.

These are 2 guys that literally have never had a blemish in careers of over 30,000 hours, and they obviously were very frank in admitting that they screwed the pooch.

 

[Fubijaakr]

yes, it is the biggest blunder of modern airlines times.. name one bigger!

1. Tenerife
2. Palm 90
3. Eastern 401
4. Delta 191
5. NWA 255
6. Delta 1141

Six enough?

 

[Dan Roman]

1. Tenerife
2. Palm 90
3. Eastern 401
4. Delta 191
5. NWA 255
6. Delta 1141

Six enough?

and sadly enough, you are just scratching the surface. I flashed on the SWA overrun in BUR as the biggest blunder, but the fact is, any of us can screw up. The finger pointers are usually the biggest screw ups.

 

[JohnDoe]

john,
you said it is bunk and you said my assertion was false because it was not the deadliest... you missed my whole point. this incident has nothing to do with death but alot to do with complete absurdity. that is what a blunder is. A blunder is a fumbled punt. a botched snap, and on and on.

yes, it is the biggest blunder of modern airlines times.. name one bigger!

NO, the only thing I called bunk was your assertion that it was the "biggest blunder in modern airline times." I was not saying that any critisism of the incident is bunk. I think you should work on your reading comprehension.

After reading other responses, apparently I am not alone in the belief that your view of a blunder is a little out of whack.

 

[ozpilot]

It is a much harder road to admit you were breaking company policy and on your laptops than take the easy out and say "we fell asleep."

My understanding is that while it is against Delta policy, NorthWest policy actually allows the use of laptops. Anyone care to confirm this?

 

[filejw]

My understanding is that while it is against Delta policy, NorthWest policy actually allows the use of laptops. Anyone care to confirm this?

Well NW at one time encouraged you not take paper manuals so lots of folks have them on laptops. So if i was to study on a long leg my laptop would come out and studying on a trip is OK.

 

[filejw]

As for the whats more dangerous question I suggest you Google Western Airlines Mexico City accident (1979) to see what happens when you land on closed pavement..

 

[Metrojet]

john,
you said it is bunk and you said my assertion was false because it was not the deadliest... you missed my whole point. this incident has nothing to do with death but alot to do with complete absurdity. that is what a blunder is. A blunder is a fumbled punt. a botched snap, and on and on.

yes, it is the biggest blunder of modern airlines times.. name one bigger!

What about the NW DC-10 that overflew Amsterdam and was going to land at Frankfurt, and all the passengers were watching it on the in-flight movie screen before a flight attendant alerted them? Can't remember what year, and I don't think they actually landed at Frankfurt.

Metrojet

 

[IBNAV8R]

Sadly, politicians (including those in the FAA) will focus on the issues sensationalized by the media. Meanwhile, the issues that actually constitute the bigger risk factors get left on the back burner. Let's face it, the risk factors that affect the "majors" affect the "regionals" and vice versa. It's just a matter of who it happens to when there is an otherwise slow-news day.

 

[filejw]

What about the NW DC-10 that overflew Amsterdam and was going to land at Frankfurt, and all the passengers were watching it on the in-flight movie screen before a flight attendant alerted them? Can't remember what year, and I don't think they actually landed at Frankfurt.

Metrojet

You really at least should get the airports right if you are going to reference something.They were going to FRA and the controller thought they were going to BRU and vectored them there. The Ca was brand new to europe and didn't recognise what the mistake was untill it was too late and just landed at BRU. Unfortunately he had an FO that was trouble from day one at Air West and was of no help.

 

[Metrojet]

You really at least should get the airports right if you are going to reference something.They were going to FRA and the controller thought they were going to BRU and vectored them there. The Ca was brand new to europe and didn't recognise what the mistake was untill it was too late and just landed at BRU. Unfortunately he had an FO that was trouble from day one at Air West and was of no help.

Well - chalk it up to human error - just like not using spell check when you type "recognise" instead of recognize or "untill" when you mean until.

But hey - we all make mistakes - just depends if we catch the error before it becomes a major factor.

Metrojet