Whats all this BS about the BS degree?

[chawbein]

If you are going to get a two year degree, get it with the intention of going to a four year school to finish. A guy I work with got an associates in computer information systems, and now he is going back to get his bachelors in computer science. He is haveing to take all of the remedial classes (i.e. history, calculus, etc...) because they weren't a part of his associates degree. My point is to keep the option to finish up your bachelors if at all possible.

 

[enigma]

Lastly...enigma -- doctoral candidates write dissertations, not a thesis; a thesis is written at the masters level.

congratulations, I are now edukated and you can consider yurself a grammer Natsi.

 

[dmspilot00]

Chawebein offers good advice. I would strongly suggest you take a variety of courses and focus on general ed. classes--maths, sciences, language, etc. This way you will learn about a variety of subjects and you also may find something else that interests you. If and when you go to transfer to a four-year school you will be better off, also.

College isn't about just memorizing books. It's completely different than high school. Book work is only half of it. College classes do not consist of teachers reading books as did high school classes. In most of my classes, we are lectured on the things that one can't learn from a book. If college consisted of merely reading and memorizing books there would be no professors; only proctors.

Like the military person said, there is a significant difference in the intelligence levels of people who attended college and those who did not. Keep in mind this is a generalization so don't get offended. I'm sure there are some "smart" people who didn't go to college but they are rare.

No, going to college does not automatically turn a dumb person into a smart person (although it would if he/she works very hard to change it). The fact is that smarter people are the ones to make the decision to go to college, and the less smart people are the ones to decide to not go to college.

Keep it mind this is 2002 and I say this because I've seen it myself. This may not be true for those of you in their upper 30s, or in their 40s, or older, because not as many people went to college back then, so I'm not trying to offend anyone. I'm just telling how it is right now. You don't see a person get As and Bs and have good SAT scores and then not go to college. They always do. You also don't see people who get straight Ds go to college, either. They usually don't. (Don't turn this into a debate of "test scores/grades don't matter," as that's not the issue).

 

[Freightdog75]

Thank you all for the info and advice! One more quick question. Anyone here taken any distance learning courses(internet), or know someone who has? Opinions? Reason being -- Full time pilot, got into the profession young to hopefully "get ahead oif the game." I can't imagine pulling out of it to go to a full-time, sit in class school right now. It would make all of the hard work to get this far, this early, seem pointless. Advice again? Thanks all.
Freightdog75

 

[Freightdog75]

As a reply for dmspilot00 -- I never took SAT's. Took the ACT, and scored a 29. Graduated high school with a 3.19 Cummulative and 3.75 for senior year. School work is not the problem, money is. No attitude intended if it read that way.

 

[dmspilot00]

I am a commuter student so I usually take one or two distance learning classes from the school I am attending per semester. You definitely have to be disciplined and it's easy to get way, way behind. Most of my classes involved essays and answering essay questions as the primary grading criteria. There is TONS of writing, so keep this in mind if you don't like to write. However it may be different from other schools.

As far as paying for it: Unless you are using the cost as an excuse because you just don't want to go (or feel you are smart enough without it), my comments aren't directed at you . Please do look into loans if you can't pay out of pocket because interest rates are very low.

I was just using SATs as an example of how good students go to college (or, WANT to at least) and bad one's don't want to. My hostilities are mostly directed to the individual(s) who think they are "too smart" to go to college, because I feel strongly about this topic. It still baffles me that someone can be so arrogant as to say they are smart enough without college. Isn't it interesting, then, that the smarter you are the MORE likely it is you will attend college? It's not the other way around!

 

[gsrcrsx68]

freight dog

Two things,
One it just occurred to me, dmspilot is a college student. That explains everything. Dms, how old are you? If you haven't had a job, don't pay for college out of money you've made from work and think college itself give you standing in any area, you have a lot to learn. Please respond honestly, Job? Money? Work? Age?
Two, yeah fr8t Dog I am actually taking classes online right now. The most important thing is the accreditation. The school I am going to is accredited to be accepted by all Colorado schools. It is CCCOnline. www.ccconline.org
I am 34 and think online learning is great. I went to embry riddle when I was 19 and ran out of money. You gave some good reasons for going online, I'll add one. There really aren't too many things more annoying than young punks with almost no experience at anything acting all pumped up on themselves because they read a book.
Education absent experience may not be the most worthless thing in the world but it is **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** close .

 

[JBHewlett]

Distance Learning

There are some great distance learning prgrams out there. I have never taken any of them though. Embry Riddle has a pretty extensive distance learning program. If you will go back a few issues of AOPA Flight training magazine you will find some information about it.

The text discussed how useful the learning program was for people already employed.

Personally I have no clue how these distance learning programs work. I understand that they are great. Can some of you who have taken them give me some details about them?

Enjoy,
J.

 

[MetroSheriff]

College was not an option for me, financially, right after high school. Neither was flight training. I enlisted in the Marine Corps. The G.I. Bill paid for 2 years of college (night school) and G.I Flight Training benefits paid for about $10,000 of the $15,000 total for all my ratings (training was a little cheaper in the mid 80's). I worked as an CFI in my free time my last 2 years in the service. That route was tough, but it is possible for those that can't afford college. So that option is available.

I have been working toward completing my Bachelor's at ERAU via distance learning. It is expensive, make no mistake, but the course work is good, the instructors that I have had are top notch. I a married, raising kids and have a full time flying job. It is not easy to maintain the discipline to study with such a full plate, but once again it is possible.

If you are on the fence, take it from me, it is WELL worth the effort. I only have 18 units left, and finally see the light at the end of the tunnel and it feels great. If you are interested in talking to a counselor at ERAU, PM and I will give the gals name who has been helping me for the last 18 months. No pressure, and very helpfull, it may be all you need to get the ball rolling.

As for TIMP, the b00b that started the whole officer/enlisted thing. I am neither jealous, nor pissed, at officers. I got along great with them both as an enlisted NCO in the command structure, and acting as their CFI at Kadena Air Base (they were the only ones who could afford flying lessons even at Aero Club rates). I just don't like elitest snobs, enlisted or commissioned, that's all. I would expect an educated man such as you, to easily comprehend the difference. Savvy?

As for intelligence, I don't feel a lick smarter than I did before I got my schooling under my belt. That is not to say I didn't learn anything, I learned a lot, but nothing that would have changed who I am, or with whom I could hold an intelligent conversation. I feel a great sense of pride in what I have forced myself to accomplish, but that has to do with nearly completing a goal I set for myself, not something a professor taught me.

As the old saying goes: "Everything you really need to know in life, you should have learned in kindergarden".

P.S.

TIMP,

If God is an Irish-Catholic, you'll never be on a major's hiring board the day I show up. I can't imagine you would extend an invitation to the garden party to someone of my pedigree.

 

[JediNein]

Howdy!

I no longer recommend ERAU's distance program. Supposedly they went online and changed their courses over to that format.

No, they took their distance programs, added an online discussion forum, but their videos are a camera focused on a professor sitting at a desk for hours of droning on and on and on. . . The "neat-o whiz bang" powerpoint presentations are slapped together in a black and white poorly copied course book that you get to receive for an extra $40-100. Most of the undergraduate courses lack the videos. I've not enjoyed the "Riddle Runaround" in most every facet, most likely due to the fact the staff thinks we won't show up on their doorstep and get answers to such questions as when are tuition payments due, why am I double-billed for a class, what books are required, and so on.

UNO's Online Aviation Institute is online learning done right. Their online classes are considered the same as if you attended classes in person. The number of students in each class is quite small. The tuition is at the in-state resident rate, no matter where you live. Financial aid is also at the in-state, off-campus rate. IOW, have the government pay interest for the student loans while attending classes. Having access to the instructors during their office hours made the difference in two of my courses there. Being able to correspond within a matter of days instead of weeks allowed questions to be answered before missing a deadline on a homework assignment. Another plus is the courses are a full semester's length long. This allows time to complete assignments while working full or "normal ~80 hours" time. www.unomaha.edu/~unoai

Bakersfield College and most of the other community colleges in CA offer online courses. The rate? $11 per credit hour. Avoid Cerro Coso College as their class sizes are much too large and overwhelm the instructors.www.cvu.com

HTH,
Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein

 

[dmspilot00]

Thanks for you insight JediNein. Very interesting.

The government will only subsidize interest on student loans if someone can claim you as a dependant. Also, there are limits on the amount of the subsidized loan you can take out. If you can't get enough money from government loans (subsidized or not), you can get an alternative loan through a number of sources, including Sallie Mae, TERI, and GATE. Sallie Mae only gives loans if you're enrolling in a 4-year program, TERI will give loans for 2-year programs. Not sure about GATE, but I did not go with them because their interest/terms were not as good.

People much older, wiser, and more experienced than me have expressed very similar opinions when it comes to education. My age and how I pay for it has nothing to do with it and it's none of your business.

 

[kl7741]

I personally would highly recommend ERAU's distance learning program. I enrolled at the end of 1998 and I am still enrolled; taking one class at a time and working towards a BS degree.

I thought it was a great program before they went online, and I still think it's a great program. It just takes a little getting used to especially if your used to the traditional distance learning stuff.

As far as their videos are concerned, I do remember one or two classes (I've taken 14) that have had some boring videos, but the videos were only a part of the whole syllabus; I would expect some boring lectures during face-to-face classes too.

I personally have never had any problems with the billing department. At ERAU they assign you an "academic advisor" that handles your account. All of your dealings go through that person. Mine (Andrea) is great! She has been there since I started with them, and I can always reach her on the telephone.

 

[gsrcrsx68]

ERAU

I will say this about Riddle. Paying for their paper is well worth it. People always recognize the name, especially in aviation. As for the Riddle run around, all I can say is the people in Az were always nice. True that you need your checkbook but then again that is the price you pay as a civilian getting in to aviation.

as for this:
<<My age and how I pay for it has nothing to do with it and it's none of your business. >>

Actually it has as much to do with it as does your level of education. You are voicing some strong opinions not only about education, but about people. Nobody is going to disagree college is better than no college. However sweeping generalizations regaurding people and the types of education that people get seem silly. I venture a guess that when you put a few more miles under your belt and life opens yours eyes for you over time(as it does for everyone) you will be able to appreciate more of the different paths life takes people on.

Think on this: The point the world is at is because of the work of all people, not the minute percentage of people who have walked the earth with a college degree. Certainly it is only a fraction of a percent of the people throughout history that have ever had a degree.

 

[dmspilot00]

If I only think the way I do because of my age, then how do you explain the other 50% of people on this thread that are older than me expressing similar opinions?

My being older isn't going to affect all the people who say, later in life, "I wish I had gone to college. I made such a mistake." I've heard it too many times. Hardly any people in my family in previous generations went to college, and they are ALL sorry for it. Not a single person thinks college is a waste of time, and not one can think of a good reason why one should not go to college. There's people that want to go, but can't, and that's a different story--I wish those people good luck.

I predict that many of the people that say college is a waste of time will change their minds, eventually. Like I said before, rumpletumbler seems to think that only "dumb" people go to college because they aren't smart enough otherwise. Anyone with an IQ of at least 10 realizes that nothing can be further from the truth.

There are also people who go to college, coast along while barely passing; attending parties getting drunk all the time, and they aren't any better than people who did not go to college at all. Shame on them.

To me, there is nothing better than the excitement that comes from learning and being in a college environment (on campus or not). For people to dismiss this and say it's worthless caused me to be furiated enough to make the generalizations I made.

It's the same as me telling all of you that learning to fly is a waste of time, and that you don't need to "learn to fly" to experience flying. It's an expensive waste of money and job opportunities are highly limited. Some non-pilots might think the same thing, but saying that to a group of pilots would outrage them. So would telling dedicated, honest college students, or people that have gone to college and enjoyed it, that college is a waste of time.

The difference is that for many people, not going to college means you will have a very limited and difficult future.

Thank you for your time.

 

[JediNein]

Three small thoughts...

Subsidized student loans are available for ALL students, not just dependents or independent students. The amount available will vary.

Boring lectures in actual classrooms, yes, I've had my share of them. Online courses, correspondence courses, undergraduate in-classrom, graduate in-classroom, none are immune. However, a student can change the prof's tune during an in-class session. Same thing with the online sessions and various correspondence courses. A set of 10 videos? No luck.

UNO is 1/3 the price of ERAU...

Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein

 

[gsrcrsx68]

dmspilot00

Now those seem to be intelligent thought out points, laced with a bit more understanding for others. Good luck to you with both your studies and your flying.

 

[B-J-J Fighter]

Degree

Im very proud of my degree. I made o.k. grades and graduated with a 3.1.
Im proud of my degree because I also participated in Division I athletics. It wasnt that the course work was so hard, for me college taught my time management if nothing else. We trained 6 hours per day during the wrestling season.

We had balls to the wall conditioning practice every weekday morning from 6am to 8am. I went straight to class stinking like crazy because there was no time to take a shower. I attended class from about 8 to noon everyday. Went straight back to the dorms after class, took a shower, then would cook fresh skinless boneless chicken, steam one cup of rice and make a small salad. After eating my lunch I made a protein shake to take with me to the gym to lift weights. After lifting I would study in the library a few hours before heading to the real wrestling practice with started at 4 and ended anywhere from 6 to 7. After practice back to the dorm room to cook a nutricious (sp?) meal. After eating and taking a shower more book time.

My whole point o this was college taught me excellent time management skills and how to priortize things. There was never enough time in the day to do everything I needed to do. I just got real good at priortizing my life which I think makes people successful at life in general. Im off to the gym now, sorry for the rambling, go get a degree it will make you proud of it if you have to work for it like I did.

 

[aero99]

wow.

There are some very good points on both sides of this discussion. I think BJJ's comment that getting his degree provided him skills in time management and prioritization is dead on. Life experience is something one cannot buy or study. What you choose to learn by every experience determines your success...not a piece of paper stating you followed curriculum.

I didn't go to college, yet I feel I have been successful in what I have done in the past and will be successful in the future and it has nothing to do with the fact that I do or don't have a degree.

When I was deciding if I wanted to pursue a professional career as a pilot, I knew I would have to get the degree in order to be competitive in the market place. It is a hurdle to jump through and what you learn during that process is up to the individual, not the lesson plan.

The only reason I would go to college at this point would be for my personal satisfaction of accomplishing it. I would bet that my resume and my past work ethics is more important than a degree is and I don't know too many people that made over 150k a year without a degree. I was lucky and in the right place at the right time and I applied myself to the tasks at hand to get there.

I left that job because I learned that chasing the might $ doesn't bring you happienss. I am doing what I want to do now, and for the time making less money.

To go back to the orignal question, I would not attempt to fly for a living without a degree if you plan on or want to fly for the majors. Could it be done- sure, but why sell yourself short in a market that is already hard to find any paying job.

At my last job I was at a Directors level and managed a group of around 15 and had clients and sources all over the world. When I interviewed people to work with me, the degree was a non-issue. I wanted someone that I thought could communicate, work indepently and that would continue to learn throughout the years. Some of the best people I ever hired didn't have degrees.

All this being said, I do want to get me degree someday- just to say I did it.

 

[jsoceanlord]

someone mentioned richard branson; he was never asked for a resume, so i heard that he never asks applicants for one. but he's an ex hippy.

to me, college shows an employer you're a little less free spirited and enslaved and have to pay off your tuition and are less likely to walk, etc ,etc, etc.

in latin america it's who you know, not what you know.

ATP's used to be a rare requirement for jobs, now it's almost mandatory

i'm in the 10% group of pilots without a degree

 

[brett]

I believe in the 80/20 rule:

About 80% of people having degrees are intelligent, capable, reliable, and professional. The other 20% are not.

People without advanced education reverse the percentages.

You can't rule out one group altogether, because there are gems and bums in both groups. But if you are an employer hiring people for an important job, one your customers need to be able to trust also - which goody bag do you want to pull from?

- Brett