What's 357 Done For You Lately?

[ArcadiaMaxima]

So, is that considered PFT?

 

[Captain Morgan]

As far as I'm concerned, IBT threw us lowly F/Os under the bus. It's apparent I have to look out for myself under their leadership. I won't cross a picket line, but if an opportunity presents itself to better mine and my families life, so be it. I am at the bottom of the seniority list either way so, eh... I'm furlough fodder anyway.

 

[OpenClimb]

I've seen a couple of people talking about an A320 type rating for Frontier new hires. Just as a heads-up, Frontier does not "type" its FO's. We get this SIC-only A320 type rating that isn't good for anything but meeting some sort of ICAO requirement. You can't serve as PIC on an A320 with the SIC-only type rating.

 

[Captain Morgan]

I've seen a couple of people talking about an A320 type rating for Frontier new hires. Just as a heads-up, Frontier does not "type" its FO's. We get this SIC-only A320 type rating that isn't good for anything but meeting some sort of ICAO requirement. You can't serve as PIC on an A320 with the SIC-only type rating.

I didn't think they did, I don't know where people got that.

 

[SF340Guy]

Not real intelligent to simply copy and paste internal FAPA emails to a message board like this...

You mean like some F'nut did to the RAH EXCO on APC

 

[SizzleChest]

While there was certainly a dose of schadenfreude in the thread's title, how is this FAPA's fault?

The IBT's refusal to negotiate forced the arbitrator to rule, and his decision created some things that all parties find repugnant. As the letter states, IBT refused to consider a flow through when it was put on the table and now there will be at least seven years for you to calculate what the net present value of that decision was.

RAH is following the arbitrator's decision - a seven year fence. If you thought you had found a path under it, you were wrong. This has nothing to do with FAPA.

Let's put this in different terms, if i were to buy your "house" would i need to consult with you before implementing changes to it? Do I need to call you before i put a new roof on it? Would I have to meet your standards before my bank check would be accepted? I tend to think that "no" would be the answer. As such, RAH bought F9. There was no need to flow thru to F9 just like there is no need to flow thru to any of the legacy RAH carriers. (ex. CHQ->REP) "We are one" right? So for these guys to give up anything to bid an Airbus is lame as heck. They have been vetted the same as F9 guys, they have passed checkrides in turbojets in a 121 airline, they have talked on the radio. they are plenty capable to fly the prcious Airbus. No wonder they see FAPA as a great evil....

 

[Bolo]

Let's put this in different terms, if i were to buy your "house" would i need to consult with you before implementing changes to it? Do I need to call you before i put a new roof on it? Would I have to meet your standards before my bank check would be accepted? I tend to think that "no" would be the answer. As such, RAH bought F9. There was no need to flow thru to F9 just like there is no need to flow thru to any of the legacy RAH carriers. (ex. CHQ->REP) "We are one" right? So for these guys to give up anything to bid an Airbus is lame as heck. They have been vetted the same as F9 guys, they have passed checkrides in turbojets in a 121 airline, they have talked on the radio. they are plenty capable to fly the prcious Airbus. No wonder they see FAPA as a great evil....

AGAIN, this had nothing to do with FAPA! This was managements decision. Do not put this great evil B-crap on FAPA's plate.

 

[F9 Driver]

Let's put this in different terms, if i were to buy your "house" would i need to consult with you before implementing changes to it? Do I need to call you before i put a new roof on it? Would I have to meet your standards before my bank check would be accepted? I tend to think that "no" would be the answer. As such, RAH bought F9. There was no need to flow thru to F9 just like there is no need to flow thru to any of the legacy RAH carriers. (ex. CHQ->REP) "We are one" right? So for these guys to give up anything to bid an Airbus is lame as heck. They have been vetted the same as F9 guys, they have passed checkrides in turbojets in a 121 airline, they have talked on the radio. they are plenty capable to fly the prcious Airbus. No wonder they see FAPA as a great evil....

What a specious analogy. YOU didn't buy anything.

The company that you work for bought the company that I work for. The management team of the company that now owns both our companies decided that it was in their best interest to follow the procedure outlined in both our CBAs to merge the various pilot groups. Part of that procedure allowed the groups' representatives to create and agree to an Alternative Dispute Resolution process (ADR), per LPP 13(b), rather than simply go to arbitration when negotiations deadlock, per LPP 13(a).

The representatives for your group acted in bad faith during the agreed upon ADR negotiation and mediated negotiation, and the arbitrator had to decide how to put the groups together - the last resort under the ADR. During the interim period between when the SLI was announced and when it may be implemented, the management team that runs the company that owns our companies decided to hire pilots for the Frontier operation. They opted for the lowest cost solution (including training costs, litigation, and maybe even costs implicit in harmonious operation) to put qualified pilots in those positions. The IBT shills on this site whine about how awful it would be for the SLI award to be followed since they had promised that there would be a way to tunnel under the seven year fence, and were wrong.

This isn't about whether an IBT EMB pilot could operate an Airbus. Many of the current FAPA Airbus pilots made the same transition, after being hired at Frontier, with no problem. The likelihood that the majority of IBT EMB pilots would succeed is high. The issue is management's.

If they don't have to move an active pilot from one certificate to another, with the attendant training costs, they won't. AMR and CAL had flow through agreements that respected the hierarchy of pilot career progression and the regional counterparts of those agreements thought they were great agreements. Somehow Local 357 has gotten some pilots, at least you anyway, to believe that you are being screwed by that same arrangement.

 

[jetalc]

You mean like some F'nut did to the RAH EXCO on APC

Precisely. Why do people feel the need to "advertise" internal memos? I heard now there's a dispute filed by IBT because of the now-public nature of this otherwise internal memo.

 

[sqwkvfr]

Speaking of ignorance, what in the world are you talking about in that second sentence?

Repubic has hired.....what......fifty pilots this year? I would think it would be a no brainer for 20 of them to take this Frontier deal? What have they got to lose, unless the company holds them to their training contract, which they could conveniently choose to ignore. And once again, Midwest pilots are left on the street.

Must have been on the SL Oct 1st, 2009...new hires are not eligible.

 

[crashpad]

I've had numerous opportunities over the past 3 yearsr to observe republics pilots at work up close. In every instance they measured up to my expectations of a commuter airline pilot.

 

[sshrae]

I've had numerous opportunities over the past 3 yearsr to observe republics pilots at work up close. In every instance they measured up to my expectations of a commuter airline pilot.

That's funny, I remember being in the jumpseat of an rah 170 and they decided to do a slip because they were so high. After the flight instead of thanking them for the ride I thanked them for not killing me.

 

[SF340Guy]

That's funny, I remember being in the jumpseat of an rah 170 and they decided to do a slip because they were so high. After the flight instead of thanking them for the ride I thanked them for not killing me.

Yeah, and I remember riding a camel in an underwater congo line in celebration of the martian new year.

Both my statement and yours contain the same amount of truth, except maybe the part about you thanking them at the end of the flight. But hey it is on the internet so it must be true right.

BTW, a few pilots in your group (FAPA) come from RAH companies, and passed your training just fine.

 

[SF340Guy]

I've had numerous opportunities over the past 3 yearsr to observe republics pilots at work up close. In every instance they measured up to my expectations of a commuter airline pilot.

So that Beech 1900 or the CRJ you flew, those were operated by Delta, correct, or was it American? Because with the attitude that some of you display, it seems you were born into your seat at an LCC. I hope you didn't think I was going to call F9 a major?

 

[arjayeffo]

All of the mud-slinging against IBT is only solidifying their pilot group against ours. They will cling to the IBT just to get back at us for picking on them. God Help us all.

 

[ABC123]

That's funny, I remember being in the jumpseat of an rah 170 and they decided to do a slip because they were so high. After the flight instead of thanking them for the ride I thanked them for not killing me.

Being in this business 25 years and working with some of the most professional crews at TWA, the crews I work with at Republic (Chautauqua, Shuttle and Republic), rank right there with them.

I want to thank the Frontier crew who decided last summer to fly through a thunderstorm enroute from IND to DEN, thank you for not killing me. Apparently the crew nor the dispatcher was too concerned with a 50,000 foot cell, right on the filed route...GOOD JOB.

Before you insult a Republic crewmember, you better know, we are a family here, and this family saved F9's butt, so come down off your pedestal F9, because all you fly are Airbus, for a failing national

 

[crashpad]

I got more...but I don't want to hog the board. Next?

 

[crashpad]

......blah, blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,.....who was bought by a regional

It's a commuter airline. C'mon professor, read the directions on the koolaid before you drink it, eh?

 

[Chuck Steak]

Being in this business 25 years and working with some of the most professional crews at TWA, the crews I work with at Republic (Chautauqua, Shuttle and Republic), rank right there with them.

I want to thank the Frontier crew who decided last summer to fly through a thunderstorm enroute from IND to DEN, thank you for not killing me. Apparently the crew nor the dispatcher was too concerned with a 50,000 foot cell, right on the filed route...GOOD JOB.

Before you insult a Republic crewmember, you better know, we are a family here, and this family saved F9's butt, so come down off your pedestal F9, because all you fly are Airbus, for a failing national

Oh, SNAP!!!!! Stick that in your pipe and smoke it!

 

[The Drizzle]

All of the mud-slinging against IBT is only solidifying their pilot group against ours. They will cling to the IBT just to get back at us for picking on them. God Help us all.

Yup, you guys finally discovered the way to unify a historically scattered and cagey group. Congrats.

 

[Megalops]

Being in this business 25 years and working with some of the most professional crews at TWA, the crews I work with at Republic (Chautauqua, Shuttle and Republic), rank right there with them.

I want to thank the Frontier crew who decided last summer to fly through a thunderstorm enroute from IND to DEN, thank you for not killing me. Apparently the crew nor the dispatcher was too concerned with a 50,000 foot cell, right on the filed route...GOOD JOB.

Before you insult a Republic crewmember, you better know, we are a family here, and this family saved F9's butt, so come down off your pedestal F9, because all you fly are Airbus, for a failing national

Oh how I wish RAH had not saved my butt, Truly you cannot fathom that wish. This is an issue of jobs stolen and seniority jumped, this is none of your business or concern so why don't you fuk along now. Really, you do not belong on this thread.

 

[SizzleChest]

AGAIN, this had nothing to do with FAPA! This was managements decision. Do not put this great evil B-crap on FAPA's plate.

Bolo & F9 Driver:
Are you sure FAPA had nothing to do with it? Did you read the FAPA BOD email that says they support what RAH is doing? Apparently IBT has communicated with the Arbitrator about this manuever around the SLI award.

 

[BUDDHA145]

Yup, you guys finally discovered the way to unify a historically scattered and cagey group. Congrats.

Dont forget the icing of "ALPA"!! lots of peeps in the RAH side where exited about stand alone union (FAPA)... all gone now. :smash:

 

[F9 Driver]

Bolo & F9 Driver:
Are you sure FAPA had nothing to do with it? Did you read the FAPA BOD email that says they support what RAH is doing? Apparently IBT has communicated with the Arbitrator about this manuever around the SLI award.

You mean the part where our union is protecting the best interests of its members - as we are being constantly reminded that the IBT did for the RAH pilots? I believe that the discussions focused on necessary staffing levels. The company threw the IBT a bone offering up a way for their membership to move to mainline before the seven year fence expires. "The decision to add staffing, and the method of adding those pilots, was made after discussion between your FAPA representatives and senior RAH management. We appreciate RAH management’s interest in discussing these issues with us prior to the decisions being made, and we agree that the process is in compliance with the current status of the FAPA and IBT CBA’s and the IMSL award."

Or the part where the IBT reps can't seem to have constructive discussions with the RAH management, and end up walking out to beg the arbitrator to revise his award in order to give them the tunnel under the fence ("maneuver around the SLI award," in your parlance) that they thought they saw - and wrongly promised their members?

We'll see what Eischen says to this attempt to revise his award and how this goes down if the STS happens, but I'm not going to be surprised if, because of the IBT's greed and avarice, it is a full seven years plus before anyone sees squat for improvement on the RAH side of the house. You'll have the IBT to thank for it.

 

[SF340Guy]

Nevermind, not worth it.

My union speaks for me!

 

[Bolo]

You mean the part where our union is protecting the best interests of its members - as we are being constantly reminded that the IBT did for the RAH pilots? I believe that the discussions focused on necessary staffing levels. The company threw the IBT a bone offering up a way for their membership to move to mainline before the seven year fence expires. "The decision to add staffing, and the method of adding those pilots, was made after discussion between your FAPA representatives and senior RAH management. We appreciate RAH management’s interest in discussing these issues with us prior to the decisions being made, and we agree that the process is in compliance with the current status of the FAPA and IBT CBA’s and the IMSL award."

Or the part where the IBT reps can't seem to have constructive discussions with the RAH management, and end up walking out to beg the arbitrator to revise his award in order to give them the tunnel under the fence ("maneuver around the SLI award," in your parlance) that they thought they saw - and wrongly promised their members?

We'll see what Eischen says to this attempt to revise his award and how this goes down if the STS happens, but I'm not going to be surprised if, because of the IBT's greed and avarice, it is a full seven years plus before anyone sees squat for improvement on the RAH side of the house. You'll have the IBT to thank for it.

+1 Very well said!

 

[Aerosurfer]

Why a captain actually questioned if I could sit in the back while jumpseating...until I informed the gate agent...who chewed him out in front of the whole cabin and crew?

I dont even understand this quote... Were you being questioned about being able to catch a ride or did you and the 'gate agent' feel you needed to be on the flight deck for everyone else's sake? WTF would the gate agent be upset or care?

We all have our %3ers that are clueless about Jumpseating, but then again you are a mainline pilot you should know this

 

[FSIGRAD]

I don't get this, you had an issue with the Captain while jumpseating so you went crying to a gate agent who came down and chewed out the Captain for you in front of passengers? Makes no sense.

 

[SizzleChest]

You mean the part where our union is protecting the best interests of its members - as we are being constantly reminded that the IBT did for the RAH pilots? I believe that the discussions focused on necessary staffing levels. The company threw the IBT a bone offering up a way for their membership to move to mainline before the seven year fence expires. "The decision to add staffing, and the method of adding those pilots, was made after discussion between your FAPA representatives and senior RAH management. We appreciate RAH management’s interest in discussing these issues with us prior to the decisions being made, and we agree that the process is in compliance with the current status of the FAPA and IBT CBA’s and the IMSL award."

Or the part where the IBT reps can't seem to have constructive discussions with the RAH management, and end up walking out to beg the arbitrator to revise his award in order to give them the tunnel under the fence ("maneuver around the SLI award," in your parlance) that they thought they saw - and wrongly promised their members?

We'll see what Eischen says to this attempt to revise his award and how this goes down if the STS happens, but I'm not going to be surprised if, because of the IBT's greed and avarice, it is a full seven years plus before anyone sees squat for improvement on the RAH side of the house. You'll have the IBT to thank for it.

The thing is is that they want the same thing Midwest/Lynx guys got. FAPA wants a double standard. You take the vacancy and then hold whatever the IMSL allows you to do when it is enacted. Why didn't FAPA have a problem with that before but now have a problem with it when it pertains to the IBT pilots they don't wish to represent? A bit of a double standard there, eh? What's good for Lynx/Midwest isn't good for IBT guys? IBT is just "protecting the best interests of its members" by filing with the arbitrator. Since FAPA hasn't the history of experience with RAH management, don't assume that constructive talks are even possible or were/weren't had. The IBT wanted what's fair and asked to continue the same deal as lynx/Midwest... the same thing FAPA doesn't want now. FAPA is just looking to splash the pot here... and what is this "mainline" you speak of? We are one right?

 

[trainer8]

The IBT357 NC just sent out a blast e-mail regarding the FAPA-ALPA raid. Very enlightening letter, especially since one of the NC members is a former YX NC member. If fact, he endorsed the YX SLI proposal. I wonder what has changed his mind about ALPA? Hmmmmm...