What the 717 leaving means

[Speeeedbump]

Sounds like you guys are the ones stressed and should take some of you own advice. I haven't flown with anybody here at SWA who has even talked about AirTran or this lawsuit or anything else about this AirTran acquisition. No one seems to care on our side.

Well, perhaps that serves to demonstrate which pilot group is under more duress. Why might that be? One group lives in uncertainty over whether their current domicile will ever become a base and gets fed very little information (or outright lies) from management. On the AirTran side of the fence there are very few people who have not by now become utterly disappointed or downright disgusted by the way things have turned out. The blame can be assigned in multiple directions, I know, but I think most outside observers would agree the AirTran pilots took it in the teeth the most. Over and out.

 

[B73av8r]

"The main reason I don't agree is because I was there, and I know what the intent was when we negotiated it: protecting our Captains until the point where their seniority would hold their CA seat as the planes went away under their normal lease expiration dates."

So where is the language protecting those seats? It was in SL9, which your MEC rejected in a bid for more seniority, which they got in SL10. The seniority gains of SL10 cost the 717 CPs their protections...you have to ask yourself was it worth it?

No matter how many times one keeps repeating it, this is not true or correct. If one were to simply read the bullet points of the agreement, they may come to that conclusion. On the other hand, if one were to read the entire document, t[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]he language in SLI9/AIP 1 simply did not support keeping Captain seats or provide protections.


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[madjack]

B73,

BS and you know it...CP seats (slots) were protected for 10 Years, ATL domicile fenced for 10 years...snap up pay...all that was given up for seniority...hey I get it that it sucks to be you now right now... But your side dropped the ball and now you want a redo at the SWA pilots expense...what a bunch of KRAP...

 

[redflyer65]

There absolutely was a fence in the first agreement.

The Airtran MEC pushed for more and didn't allow their members to vote the agreement up or down. They wanted more. We said numerous times that if SW was pushed, you'd most likely get less. It all came to fruition.

It was like watching a slow speed crash, all the while knowing it would turn out horribly. I wish it didn't turn out that way. All the blame rest with the MEC in the end.

 

[B73av8r]

B73,

BS and you know it...CP seats (slots) were protected for 10 Years, ATL domicile fenced for 10 years...snap up pay...all that was given up for seniority...hey I get it that it sucks to be you now right now... But your side dropped the ball and now you want a redo at the SWA pilots expense...what a bunch of KRAP...

As was mentioned previously, one can keep repeating that mantra and try to convince through continued repetition of something that is false, it's called the repetition and persistence principle. Even if it is not true, the facts don't support it, if one repeats it enough, it becomes real to the deliverer as well as the receiver.

The fact is, there were no realistic Captain seat protections nor an ATL fence, the manner in which the language was written, they did not exist.

Your opinion of the agreement is not supported by the facts and actual language of the document, irregardless how many times you repeat that it does.

 

[texman]

As was mentioned previously, one can keep repeating that mantra and try to convince through continued repetition of something that is false, it's called the repetition and persistence principle. Even if it is not true, the facts don't support it, if one repeats it enough, it becomes real to the deliverer as well as the receiver.

The fact is, there were no realistic Captain seat protections nor an ATL fence, the manner in which the language was written, they did not exist.

Your opinion of the agreement is not supported by the facts and actual language of the document, irregardless how many times you repeat that it does.

Sorry our SL 9 had everything that is stated from the poster. Unless your MEC said different. You guys had a fence, snap up pay, and locked in captain seats.

How was the language written? Our was pretty black and white.

 

[Just thinking]

Our MEC chairman will be forever known as a failure of biblical proportions. He embarrassed this pilot group with the way he communicated with GK. He embarrassed this pilot group in how we were represented throughout the "process."

We have an extremely professional pilot group that deserved to be represented in a much better manner. He is an embarrassment to this pilot group that has worked so hard to make AirTran a success in spite of management's efforts to screw it up. Look how long the AT management team that came with the deal have been with SWA and how quickly they have departed the pattern.

With that being said............

"CP seats (slots) were protected for 10 Years"...............

It was weak language at best and poorly written with supposed protections that were fraught with holes.

At best, as a junior Captain you would be commuting around the system to be on reserve until a pilot that was on the last page of the SWA seniority roster had upgraded. Does being on reserve for the next ten+ years sound like fun? How long would it have taken for a SWA pilot hired in the spring of 2008 to be in the top half of the seniority list at SWA?


"We said numerous times that if SW was pushed, you'd most likely get less."'.............

Why do you even negotiate with the company then? If their first offer is the best that you are going to get, why do you bother to negotiate? Just asking since we were just supposed to take what was given and shut up about it. Trying to understand your rationale.

 

[Lear70]

I still have all the SIA 1 documentation and could quote exactly how and why the ATL fence and CA protections would have eventually been wound-down over 3-4 years until only straight-line seniority held both of those things.

The Negotiating Committee at the time agreed with me, both in private conversation and open-session MEC meeting with about 20% of our pilot group in attendance (largest turnout ever).

However, all of that would not convince you, because you do not want to be convinced. It's easier to lay it all on the feet of our MEC. That's fine. I get that it's easier to do that. But you will never convince the people who actually read the documents, did the research, attended the MEC meeting, and heard the truth for ourselves from the people that negotiated it.

That said, I've said since then that the benefits may or may not outweigh the cons of voting down the 1st agreement, even though I know we did it thinking we could go to Arbitration. For me, it's likely a wash, as I was bidding lines that were close to what we're making now anyway (I'm in the minority) and the 300 numbers I gained in seniority (upgrading to CA faster) wash with the loss of snap-up pay for 3 years. Others aren't so lucky (junior F/O's still stapled and no snap-up pay), and our CA's are now getting even MORE severely hosed and ethically, it's not right. We expected better.

As for what our pilots over there are telling you... of COURSE they're saying that. If they didn't they'd get crucified. They're not stupid. They're going to smile and come to work, do their job, then go home. What they truly believe about what went down isn't going to change, but they're not going to sit there and get into a debate about it with you on a trip. That would be unprofessional and rather pointless.

They're over there and most have moved on, although they'll never forget it. We're here and stil living it. Someday it'll be all over, but for us it still goes on, every day. Not much more can be said other than that.

 

[madjack]

Lear,

Believe what u want...You had pay/seats/ATL fence... You traded it away...big mistake and your 717 CPs are paying for it...

 

[redflyer65]

I still have all the SIA 1 documentation and could quote exactly how and why the ATL fence and CA protections would have eventually been wound-down over 3-4 years until only straight-line seniority held both of those things.

The Negotiating Committee at the time agreed with me, both in private conversation and open-session MEC meeting with about 20% of our pilot group in attendance (largest turnout ever).

However, all of that would not convince you, because you do not want to be convinced. It's easier to lay it all on the feet of our MEC. That's fine. I get that it's easier to do that. But you will never convince the people who actually read the documents, did the research, attended the MEC meeting, and heard the truth for ourselves from the people that negotiated it.

That said, I've said since then that the benefits may or may not outweigh the cons of voting down the 1st agreement, even though I know we did it thinking we could go to Arbitration. For me, it's likely a wash, as I was bidding lines that were close to what we're making now anyway (I'm in the minority) and the 300 numbers I gained in seniority (upgrading to CA faster) wash with the loss of snap-up pay for 3 years. Others aren't so lucky (junior F/O's still stapled and no snap-up pay), and our CA's are now getting even MORE severely hosed and ethically, it's not right. We expected better.

As for what our pilots over there are telling you... of COURSE they're saying that. If they didn't they'd get crucified. They're not stupid. They're going to smile and come to work, do their job, then go home. What they truly believe about what went down isn't going to change, but they're not going to sit there and get into a debate about it with you on a trip. That would be unprofessional and rather pointless.

They're over there and most have moved on, although they'll never forget it. We're here and stil living it. Someday it'll be all over, but for us it still goes on, every day. Not much more can be said other than that.

You mean this part....


F. Base Protections
1. AirTran Pilots will be assigned to Atlanta for their initial vacancy bid at Southwest provided Atlanta vacancies are available.
2. If no Atlanta vacancies are available, newly transitioned AirTran Pilots will be awarded vacancy openings based on their Southwest seniority and normal Southwest vacancy rules.
3. Until September 27, 2020:
a. For Atlanta vacancies, those former AirTran Pilots in other Southwest domiciles with Atlanta as the higher vacancy bid in their current seat will be assigned to the same seat in Atlanta in seniority order prior to a Southwest Pilot being assigned to Atlanta. This protection is limited to 737 and 717 or similar narrow body aircraft types.
b. Former AirTran Pilots will not be displaced out of the Atlanta domicile by a Southwest pilot unless there is an overall reduction in the number of respective equipment seats system-wide

There was no way (as a SW pilot) that I could have bidded into Atlanta at all. Could they have downsized ATL? Maybe. But it was spelled out to be a 10 year ATL AAI fence. I flew with very senior SW CAs that were pissed about that language because they felt they should be able to go to ATL when they wanted. It wasn't written that way, and they were looking at an additional 10yrs to get there if that's what they bid.

All water under the bridge at this point. The MEC pushed for arbitration because in their mind, the money would be there anyway...so why not go for the brass ring (more seniority). It cost the line pilots at Airtran literally hundreds of thousands of dollars, probably more like several million. There was a huge monetary lose Lear, regardless of what your personal numbers are.

-Didn't mean to double post on the other thread, so sorry about that.
__________________
"..E170s or CR9s, but I guess some service is better than none"- OYS on more RJ service at DL.

 

[Lear70]

All water under the bridge at this point. The MEC pushed for arbitration because in their mind, the money would be there anyway...so why not go for the brass ring (more seniority). It cost the line pilots at Airtran literally hundreds of thousands of dollars, probably more like several million. There was a huge monetary lose Lear, regardless of what your personal numbers are.

I don't disagree. That's why so many are so aggravated at it. That's why I'm aggravated about it. I'm watching our guys get hosed, and your guys don't give a rat's a$$, you just want more CA seats. We get it.

The whole process, from beginning to end, was smoke and mirrors. It was never designed to give us a fair shake at arbitration, and that is the mistake that the MEC made: to believe that the process was ever going to be allowed to play out the way it was negotiated in the Process Agreement.

Additionally, you can quote bits and pieces from SIA 1 all you want, but unless you take the whole thing in context and see what all the OTHER moving pieces were doing, how few people could hold ATL and therefore be protected, and what happened to everyone ELSE (the vast majority of the group), you're being disingenuous.

A few hundred people in ATL got protected. That's it. Everyone else got hosed. And, in the end, it simply should have gone to arbitration. It wasn't. And here we are. We will continue to do whatever we can for our people until every avenue is exhausted. I still believe it's pretty hypocritical to get upset at us for doing exactly the same thing that your union is but that's just one guy's opinion, and you know what they say about those.

 

[madjack]

Lear,

You want seats and pay... AAI had it but gave it away and now want another go...understand, I feel your pain but SWA pilots aren't interested in paying for it...

 

[scoreboardII]

Fade to black.

 

[Luv2BFlyin]

AT pilots have nothing to lose now, so we're in it for the long haul, regardless of what SW pilots are "interested" in or who pays for it. It'll take years to work out and decades to "get over", we're OK with that, thanks in advance for your concern.

 

[Lear70]

AT pilots have nothing to lose now, so we're in it for the long haul, regardless of what SW pilots are "interested" in or who pays for it. It'll take years to work out and decades to "get over", we're OK with that, thanks in advance for your concern.

Well-said.

I'd offer something childish or petty like "fade to black" but the simple truth is people will continue to sling poo on here when facts are posted that conflict with the kool-aid group-think.

So instead I'll go enjoy my day, see if the Cowboys can pull a win out in BWI, and let you guys have the last (undoubtedly completely inaccurate) say.

COWBOYS!