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What the 717 leaving means

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madjack said:
Lear,

Believe what u want...You had pay/seats/ATL fence... You traded it away...big mistake and your 717 CPs are paying for it...
Click to expand...

Nothing was traded away. The MEC voted down a lopsided ISL with swiss cheese language, with expectation it would then be decided by completely neutral arbitrators, as had been agreed to by all parties. WN mgmt. clearly indicated their intent to abrogate their agreement with subtle, not so indirect threats of job loss. Spin it any way you like, but those are the facts as seen by the FL group.
 
As far as the Cowboys. I think this is the season. If they don't win, (imho, they are going to get destroyed. Possibly lose Romo for the season against this defense) the best we can hope is 8-8, more likely 6-10. They are a weak team(mentally) from top to bottom. Jerry needs to step down, hire a football GM and let him blow it up and start over. Tired of his PT Barnum sales job every offseason. I'd rather a complete rebuild with players with heart than what we currently have.

Lear70 said:
Well-said.

I'd offer something childish or petty like "fade to black" but the simple truth is people will continue to sling poo on here when facts are posted that conflict with the kool-aid group-think.

So instead I'll go enjoy my day, see if the Cowboys can pull a win out in BWI, and let you guys have the last (undoubtedly completely inaccurate) say.

COWBOYS!
Click to expand...
 
Lear70 said:
Well-said.

I'd offer something childish or petty like "fade to black" but the simple truth is people will continue to sling poo on here when facts are posted that conflict with the kool-aid group-think.

So instead I'll go enjoy my day, see if the Cowboys can pull a win out in BWI, and let you guys have the last (undoubtedly completely inaccurate) say.

COWBOYS!
Click to expand...
Nothing childish or petty about writing cowboys though...

One word about this whole deal comes to mind on the AT unions actions


Hypocrite.
 
"The MEC voted down a lopsided ISL with swiss cheese language"

SL9 had pay/seats/ATL fence...but hey Lear moved up 300 numbers in SL10...he should be thanking all the 717 CPs...
 
scoreboardII said:
Nothing childish or petty about writing cowboys though...
Click to expand...
Just my way of saying I'd rather talk about something else without continuing the argument. We've beat this to death.

One word about this whole deal comes to mind on the AT unions actions

Hypocrite.
Click to expand...
Pot. Meet Kettle. Your unions' insistence on "using every legal avenue" to enforce the 1/1/15 date so you can net more CA seats than you were expecting when you inked SL10 then getting mad at us for trying to retain them is the very definition of the word.
 
Cobraair75drvr said:
As far as the Cowboys. I think this is the season. If they don't win, (imho, they are going to get destroyed. Possibly lose Romo for the season against this defense) the best we can hope is 8-8, more likely 6-10. They are a weak team(mentally) from top to bottom. Jerry needs to step down, hire a football GM and let him blow it up and start over. Tired of his PT Barnum sales job every offseason. I'd rather a complete rebuild with players with heart than what we currently have.
Click to expand...
I thought that last season, too. Talented guy but just doesn't have what it takes to bring the team together and pull the wins out.

Also thought the same thing about JJ. One of these days maybe he'll step back and let someone really manage the team.
 
Lear70 said:
I don't disagree. That's why so many are so aggravated at it. That's why I'm aggravated about it. I'm watching our guys get hosed, and your guys don't give a rat's a$$, you just want more CA seats. We get it.

The whole process, from beginning to end, was smoke and mirrors. It was never designed to give us a fair shake at arbitration, and that is the mistake that the MEC made: to believe that the process was ever going to be allowed to play out the way it was negotiated in the Process Agreement.
Click to expand...

Are these "facts" that you continue to spew? Our guys don't give a "RA"? Smoke and mirrors?

Look, I don't doubt that you guys are feeling some sting over on your side. You say that we are trying to gain more and more, but you are filing a grievance to gain more on your side. I know you are going to plead your case about your notes that were recorded in the sessions. Guess what? AT pilots and SWA pilots were not voting on notes. They were voting on the language that they read. We both read the same language and voted accordingly. So, you are trying to maneuver to get something for your guys. Guess what, I don't care. Go for it. Chase every rabbit until you are satisfied, but quit acting like the SWA pilots are piling dirt on you.

You clearly had a path to arbitration. You chose not to accept it. So quit acting like you were hamstrung. Did SWA put pressure on you? Sure they did, but you had a path and you chose not to follow it. Don't forget that you were bought by SWA and they don't like to be told what to do.
 
Here are some facts for you..............

Sept 27, 2010
Southwest executives have confirmed that it plans to operate AirTran's 86 Boeing 717s once its acquisition of AirTran closes and the Atlanta-hubbed carrier is folded into the Southwest brand. Southwest today unveiled plans to acquire AirTran through a combination of cash and common stock.
During a call with media to discuss the acquisition Southwest CEO Gary Kelly said the carrier has decided it wants to keep and operate the 717, and will operate the smaller aircraft in a single 117-seat configuration. Currently AirTran operates its 117-seat 717s in a dual class offering.

Kelly acknowledges the addition of the 717 requires a different type crew rating and establishing how the aircraft is scheduled into operations. But he believes the 86 aircraft offer enough scale and says Southwest has the ability to incorporate the aircraft into its fleet cost effectively.
"Our pilots have looked at it [the 717] and like it," Kelly states. The aircraft will also allow Southwest to operate in markets too small to support its 737 fleet. Southwest's chief says the carrier is not prepared to make a decision on adding the larger -800 to its fleet. "We hope to make a decision soon," he says. Previously Southwest indicated it would decide on adding -800s in December and has negotiated a tentative deal with its flight attendants to operate the aircraft.

May 2011
Another milestone of the AirTran acquisition is the abandonment of one of Southwest's cardinal rules replicated the world over by successful and unsuccessful copycat carriers - keep it simple by operating a single fleet type. Almost immediately after Southwest revealed its intent to acquire AirTran, Kelly and the Southwest team fielded a barrage of questions over the fate of AirTran's 88 117-seat Boeing 717s.

Yes, Kelly declared, Southwest would keep the smaller aircraft and remains excited over the small-city prospects those aircraft open up to Southwest, which has for the past five years concentrated much effort on legacy-dominated markets of Denver, Minneapolis, San Francisco, New York LaGuardia and, most recently, Newark. Kelly admits Southwest needs an aircraft the size of the 717 to grow into markets that cannot support the current mainstay of the Southwest fleet, the 137-seat Boeing 737-700.

"As we stand today, it's difficult to muster up the effort to make one small city work, because it is so small and it just requires a lot of attention," he explains. "In this particular case AirTran will bring us several dozen cities that are up and running, generating revenue and profits. So it is now worth the management effort to make that fit into the Southwest brand and Southwest culture." Kelly believes there are several dozen additional small cities a combined Southwest-AirTran could grow into, and while the company now has the equipment to penetrate those cities, he admits Southwest will need to focus its attention at some point on a 717 replacement. Citing the size of the 717 fleet Southwest gains from acquiring AirTran, Kelly says clearly that is too large a number "for that not to be a question. So we're going to have to figure out what the successor aircraft will be". Ideally, it is a conversation Southwest would like to have with its lone aircraft supplier Boeing, but Kelly says the airframer has not expressed any real interest in pursing the market for that sized aircraft.

Aug 2011
Southwest Airlines is "happy to fly" the fleet of Boeing 717s that are operated by its AirTran subsidiary, but is planning its future fleet needs around the Boeing 737. Chief executive officer Gary Kelly said yesterday that "we don't see a reason to keep the 717s longer than we have to, or find a unique replacement for the 717 that is anything other than the 737". Kelly noted that Southwest has 717 lease commitments through 2024. According to a Southwest filing made with US regulators today, 88 717s are in the carrier's fleet, 80 of which are leased. "We have broad discussions underway with Boeing on a number of issues, and at this point we don't see a reason why we would want to have a different aircraft other than the 737," he added. Boeing Capital Corporation is a major lessor of 717s to AirTran, according to Flightglobal's ACAS database. According to a Boeing Capital filing with US regulators, AirTran represented 21% of its revenue for the first half of 2011.
When Southwest's acquisition of AirTran was originally announced last September, Kelly said Southwest was "pleased to have the 717" and that the aircraft could be utilised to serve smaller markets. Kelly also mentioned that the aircraft was "very cost effective".
 
madjack said:
Luv,

Good luck with that! Hope you feel as strongly after the next acquisition...
Click to expand...

Actually, we've talked about that on our side and should another merger happen down the road, the former AT guys will be providing a good example to our new pilots and treating them the way we wished to be treated. We'll be emailing and facebooking SWA mgmt encouraging them to integrate the next group fairly. That is what the Golden Rule is really about. We wouldn't wish this sh!t sandwich on anyone else.
 
So after reading your "facts", I am still trying to figure out what your issue is. SWA changed their plans. I know that some of your guys don't like it and will possibly get the shaft, but an airline has the ability/responsibility to change their fleet plans when ever they please.

Luv, do you actually know what the Golden Rule is? I ask, because you seem to think that it has something to do with negotiations.

I know that my posts probably come off like I am being a jerk, but that is really not my intention. I am merely pointing out some facts that you are missing or forgetting to include. Yes it sucks! Guess what, this whole deal sucks!!
 
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"I am still trying to figure out what your issue is.".............................

They told the AT pilot group that they HAD to submit a bid. The bid was based upon information that was provided to this pilot group by GK and his minions. The information that was provided to this pilot group was false. They lied. That is our issue. It is a bit more than just "changing" their plans. They were working the deal with Delta while they were telling us a different plan for the 717.
Much like the process agreement and the whole "negotiating" effort. I don't mind playing the game but don't change the rules that all parties agreed to in the middle of the game.

It is called integrity.
 
I am not trying to defend what SWA management did to you guys. Most of us are kinda fed up with their "antics" as well. That being said, a company cannot always give out all the information that we minions would like. They could have been navigating a very tricky and sensitive negotiation. Or, they could have just been playing you to get what they wanted. I don't know. Anyway, best of luck moving forward.
 
FlyinGuy said:
Luv, do you actually know what the Golden Rule is? I ask, because you seem to think that it has something to do with negotiations.
Click to expand...

For those that actually believe in it and abide by it, yes, it would have something to do with negotiations and allowing the process that was agreed to play out.

For those that have a hollow perception of it, the Golden Rule would only be applied when convenient or wouldn't harm those that are familiar with it.
 
B73av8r said:
No matter how many times one keeps repeating it, this is not true or correct. If one were to simply read the bullet points of the agreement, they may come to that conclusion. On the other hand, if one were to read the entire document, t[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]he language in SLI9/AIP 1 simply did not support keeping Captain seats or provide protections.


[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
Click to expand...

Bingo! Give that man a cigar.....and give MJ some Lithium. :D
 
FlyinGuy said:
Look, I don't doubt that you guys are feeling some sting over on your side.
Click to expand...

A lot more than just "some."

FlyinGuy said:
You say that we are trying to gain more and more, but you are filing a grievance to gain more on your side.
Click to expand...

No! The grievance was filed to MAINTAIN what we agreed to in SL10 or some compensation for the loss. The fact is that x number of AT guys will not be CAs on 1/1/2015 as was promised. It is that simple, even an air force guy could get it.

Phred
 
Just thinking said:
Here are some facts for you..............

Sept 27, 2010
Southwest executives have confirmed that it plans to operate AirTran's 86 Boeing 717s once its acquisition of AirTran closes and the Atlanta-hubbed carrier is folded into the Southwest brand. Southwest today unveiled plans to acquire AirTran through a combination of cash and common stock.
During a call with media to discuss the acquisition Southwest CEO Gary Kelly said the carrier has decided it wants to keep and operate the 717, and will operate the smaller aircraft in a single 117-seat configuration. Currently AirTran operates its 117-seat 717s in a dual class offering.

Kelly acknowledges the addition of the 717 requires a different type crew rating and establishing how the aircraft is scheduled into operations. But he believes the 86 aircraft offer enough scale and says Southwest has the ability to incorporate the aircraft into its fleet cost effectively.
"Our pilots have looked at it [the 717] and like it," Kelly states. The aircraft will also allow Southwest to operate in markets too small to support its 737 fleet. Southwest's chief says the carrier is not prepared to make a decision on adding the larger -800 to its fleet. "We hope to make a decision soon," he says. Previously Southwest indicated it would decide on adding -800s in December and has negotiated a tentative deal with its flight attendants to operate the aircraft.

May 2011
Another milestone of the AirTran acquisition is the abandonment of one of Southwest's cardinal rules replicated the world over by successful and unsuccessful copycat carriers - keep it simple by operating a single fleet type. Almost immediately after Southwest revealed its intent to acquire AirTran, Kelly and the Southwest team fielded a barrage of questions over the fate of AirTran's 88 117-seat Boeing 717s.

Yes, Kelly declared, Southwest would keep the smaller aircraft and remains excited over the small-city prospects those aircraft open up to Southwest, which has for the past five years concentrated much effort on legacy-dominated markets of Denver, Minneapolis, San Francisco, New York LaGuardia and, most recently, Newark. Kelly admits Southwest needs an aircraft the size of the 717 to grow into markets that cannot support the current mainstay of the Southwest fleet, the 137-seat Boeing 737-700.

"As we stand today, it's difficult to muster up the effort to make one small city work, because it is so small and it just requires a lot of attention," he explains. "In this particular case AirTran will bring us several dozen cities that are up and running, generating revenue and profits. So it is now worth the management effort to make that fit into the Southwest brand and Southwest culture." Kelly believes there are several dozen additional small cities a combined Southwest-AirTran could grow into, and while the company now has the equipment to penetrate those cities, he admits Southwest will need to focus its attention at some point on a 717 replacement. Citing the size of the 717 fleet Southwest gains from acquiring AirTran, Kelly says clearly that is too large a number "for that not to be a question. So we're going to have to figure out what the successor aircraft will be". Ideally, it is a conversation Southwest would like to have with its lone aircraft supplier Boeing, but Kelly says the airframer has not expressed any real interest in pursing the market for that sized aircraft.

Aug 2011
Southwest Airlines is "happy to fly" the fleet of Boeing 717s that are operated by its AirTran subsidiary, but is planning its future fleet needs around the Boeing 737. Chief executive officer Gary Kelly said yesterday that "we don't see a reason to keep the 717s longer than we have to, or find a unique replacement for the 717 that is anything other than the 737". Kelly noted that Southwest has 717 lease commitments through 2024. According to a Southwest filing made with US regulators today, 88 717s are in the carrier's fleet, 80 of which are leased. "We have broad discussions underway with Boeing on a number of issues, and at this point we don't see a reason why we would want to have a different aircraft other than the 737," he added. Boeing Capital Corporation is a major lessor of 717s to AirTran, according to Flightglobal's ACAS database. According to a Boeing Capital filing with US regulators, AirTran represented 21% of its revenue for the first half of 2011.
When Southwest's acquisition of AirTran was originally announced last September, Kelly said Southwest was "pleased to have the 717" and that the aircraft could be utilised to serve smaller markets. Kelly also mentioned that the aircraft was "very cost effective".
Click to expand...
Justthinking, you missed the most critical word in that whole piece, PLAN. sWA has many plans, but nothing was guaranteed in writing.

SWA sold the pilots a side letter saying if you agree to fly the 800 for the same rate swa would grow, guess what happened, no growth. So get used to the fluff surrounding swa statements of plans in the future.
 
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I don't know why you guys are bothering to argue about this anymore. . . . What's the point? Let the elected/appointed folks work it out, there's nothing that is going to be decided here.

Ty
 
OK, don't want to start a new thread, but couldn't find the Dispute thread. Seems SWAPA just denied the AT pilots claim citing it should be handled outside the DR process, as in the DRP has no jurisdiction. Lawyers should meet to discuss, of course...
 

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