What Others Think of the DAL MEC

[FDJ2]

Are you overall pleased with giving up on scope?

What scope was given up? What scope was enhanced?

I must admit I don't know the details

Then learn them before you pontificate.

 

[FDJ2]

I don't care who was hired after Sept 11th and who was hired after Sept 11th. It doesn't matter. PERIOD.

What?

I believe wha he meant to say, is it doesn't mater who was hired before 9/11 and who was hired after 9/11.

The last time I checked, DOH was taken out of ALPA'S merger policy. He has a valid point.

 

[justin15e]

I don't care who was hired after Sept 11th and who was hired after Sept 11th. It doesn't matter. PERIOD.

What?

Sorry. Fixed the typo in the previous post.

 

[Fly4hire]

This is what our reps told us they (DALPA) was actually proposing. Relative seniority whereby all pilots from both airlines would maintain there previous RS within 1-2%. Do you think that is unfair? Did you know that DAL has almost Twice the widebodies of NWA? So at the same relative seniority, NWA pilots would hold closer to widebody at the merged DAL then at NWA. Do you agree with this?

We were told NWALPA wanted the first 400-500 positions for themselves and the last 2000 positions to go to DAL pilots. Is this what you know to be true?

Complete and utter nonsense.

Day one would have looked acceptable, by year 3 there would have been only 50 NWA pilots left on the 747-400, by year 10 none.

The widebodies count include your 757's and domestic 767 but not our 757's both intl or domestic.

DALPA wanted to count all their options, none of ours

If you look simply at the demographics of hiring over the last year DAL hired more, therefore has more pilots on the bottom portion of the list, but would have still severely biased the DAL list.

As to the "do no harm to NWA TA" upping to 255 70 seater's does no harm? (Again DAL set the bar lower for Scope) Nor does taking ratios of future NW 787 options to be flown and counted for DAL integration calculations?

The DALPA TA most certainly protects DAL pilots, and was designed to exert pressure on the NW pilots and disadvantage their leverage to get a fair deal.

Why has Moak reversed his position on no arbitration to now saying he will?

 

[PuffDriver]

Complete horsesh*t.

Right, you weren't there, and we talked with the guy who was there. We have one side of the story, and other side "won't ever be told". That tells me a lot. Methinks somebody doesn't WANT the story told.

Educate yourself, THEN come back and talk to us.

 

[Fly4hire]

Right, you weren't there, and we talked with the guy who was there. We have one side of the story, and other side "won't ever be told". That tells me a lot. Methinks somebody doesn't WANT the story told.

Educate yourself, THEN come back and talk to us.

I've talked to the guys who were there on our side. What your guys who were there report doesn't even meet in the middle from what our guys reported. Obviously it's in your interest to think your side is right, as it is mine. Where is the truth?

Our MEC, that often has internal strife over residual issues from the last merger, was unanimous in saying "no way" to DALPA's last SLI position.

Moak categorically rejected expedited arbitration.

Sorry, but that speaks volumes.

I'll concede you guys have had your talking points and PR down from day one, but it's not going to be decided here or in the press.

 

[PuffDriver]

I've talked to the guys who were there on our side. What your guys who were there report doesn't even meet in the middle from what our guys reported. Obviously it's in your interest to think your side is right, as it is mine. Where is the truth?

Our MEC, that often has internal strife over residual issues from the last merger, was unanimous in saying "no way" to DALPA's last SLI position.

Moak categorically rejected expedited arbitration.

Sorry, but that speaks volumes.

I'll concede you guys have had your talking points and PR down from day one, but it's not going to be decided here or in the press.

That's all correct. You have nothing to add. I don't know about what part of "we will not willingly accept arbitration" you don't get, but there it is again. Go ahead and stalemate, while the earnings reports start to trickle out. You will eventually get your arbitration. Things will look a lot different, however, on PID day-and your MEC knows it.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Fly4hire:

Do you understand that "expedited arbitration" and "arbitration" are two different things?

Kroll:

Candidly, I have more research to do before taking a position for, or against, LOA19. Those who negotiated it are far ahead of me right now.

I think the ratio,RJ to mainline may have preserved the inferior Delta language and if that is the case, I do not like that part when you consider the economic realities of the DC9.

Also, if LOA 19 was a scope sale then it harms the junior members of the list the most. Weighting the equity payout to the more senior pilots is not equitable.

Does anyone know if NWA's Jets for Jobs provisions were retained? In any event, we need that flying one one list.

I've got a lot of studying to do before completely understanding the effects of LOA19. I hope the NWA pilots get on board and we negotiate something together than eclipses LOA19.

P.S. The credit markets want blood. They want parked airplanes and an old fashioned merger that removes a bunch of capacity. To the extent that the market is not impressed with the ideas hedge funds have for running an airline, ot would not surprised me if this merger began to unravel.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Our MEC, that often has internal strife over residual issues from the last merger, was unanimous in saying "no way" to DALPA's last SLI position.

That tells you nothing other than they all took the easy way out, to the detriment of their pilots, rather than step up the plate to participate.

If Chuck Yeager would have never left his farm, we would have no idea he could fly an airplane.

 

[jkkdca]

Fly4hire, this is great. You talked to your negotiaters. What exactly was your position on the SLI? Will you please tell us why YOU think our last proposal was not fair? Also will you tell us what you think would be a fair SLI? I am very curious. Stop complaining. I have not seen one post from a nwa pilot with any ideas. Just accusations. thanks

 

[Truckdriver]

As to the "do no harm to NWA TA" upping to 255 70 seater's does no harm? (Again DAL set the bar lower for Scope)

The scope in the TA simply took the 70 seaters that DAL was allowed to fly under the current PWA and added that number to what NWA is currently allowed to fly. We also had to relax the weight limit a little to allow the use of the E-175's at Compass that NWA allowed to be operated. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but we didn't allow any additional 70 seaters to be added to the combined airline we just added up the DAL and NWA 70 seaters and relaxed the weight limit for the 175's. I personally think we should have an agreement that said any additional 70-76 seaters come to the combined airline to be flown by mainline pilots. That is really the only furlough protection that will work here. We all know the 9's and some of the 88's will be replaced by CRJ 900's and E 175's. Maybe we can get that in the joint contract.

 

[jkkdca]

Also, I DID take your 757's into account. I took the numbers from APC. I think Lee Moak wants to now go to arbitration because this needs to get concluded. He tried the right way, now we have to do it the way in which your negotiaters can say they had nothing to do with it. Lee was told by them that they are afraid of all the bag stickers the NWA guys would put on there bags if they gave them something the membership didn't like. This is who you have working for you. Guys afraid of stickers instead of trying to create an airline.

 

[Kroll]

Then learn them before you pontificate.

Where did I pontificate? Please refrain adding your own negative tone to my post. Its not meant to be negative. Its a question. Man you guys are touchy. This is what we have heard. Are you say that its not in there? If you know then let us all know. What was given up or added? So tell us since you know. Not hearsay.

 

[Kroll]

I think people that ask this question need to step back and take a look at the big picture. I don't care who was hired before Sept 11th and who was hired after Sept 11th. It doesn't matter. PERIOD.

Why doesn't it matter? Because Sept 11th affected everyone, not just those who were furloughed, but it also affected those people who were hoping to get hired prior to Sept 11th. So, what if you were someone who had to put off your dream job for 5+ years because no one was hiring? How are you going to factor that into seniority integration? The answer is you can't.

Those people who were furloughed after Sept 11th, I feel sorry for you and it sux that it happened. However, your furlough is the fault of your management's business plan and events that no one can control. Does this mean because of that, pilots at another company that have been hiring a lot more new hires should be penalized for what happened to you? No.

Who should you take your anger and frustration out on? Your company. Demand retribution from them. And if your merging currently, demand retribution from the new company through wages and QOL enhancements.

If a newhire at company X is say 90% seniority in his/her company, and a ex-furlough-ee is 90% in their company (even if they have been on their list for 7 years), how is it fair to staple the 90% guy newhire to the new integrated list? After you put the newhires behind your "Sept 11th furloughees" , now that guy/girl is potentially at 80%. Wow, good for that person, they just got paid back for their furlough status by taking it out on a fellow pilot. Botom line is it isn't fair.

This kind of BS thinking that a furloughee has already put in his "dues" or something like that is the same reason newhires have to put up with a BS first year payscale. No one should have to put up with welfare level wages just because you are a newhire.

So, another question. Lets say CAL does merge with UA. CAL has 2.5 year Captains (newhires after Sept 11th). UA's youngest Capt is ~ 10 years. So if they merge, do all the new guys at CAL since Sept 11th get stapled as well and lose their Capt in the new company? No, of course not.

Good luck to everyone, but if you think your gonna get preferential treatment on a seniority list because you were furloughed after 9/11 you've got another thing coming.

RANT OFF.

I disagree veiw period. Why did you go into a rant? It was meant to be a calmly asked question. Nothing more. You've stated your point and it has some merit in areas but I disagree with it. Have you been furloughed? I doubt it because of your posted time.

I don't expect much but I don't feel that I should be junior to someone hired a month ago.

 

[Kroll]

Fly4hire:

Do you understand that "expedited arbitration" and "arbitration" are two different things?

Kroll:

Candidly, I have more research to do before taking a position for, or against, LOA19. Those who negotiated it are far ahead of me right now.

I think the ratio,RJ to mainline may have preserved the inferior Delta language and if that is the case, I do not like that part when you consider the economic realities of the DC9.

Also, if LOA 19 was a scope sale then it harms the junior members of the list the most. Weighting the equity payout to the more senior pilots is not equitable.

Does anyone know if NWA's Jets for Jobs provisions were retained? In any event, we need that flying one one list.

I've got a lot of studying to do before completely understanding the effects of LOA19. I hope the NWA pilots get on board and we negotiate something together than eclipses LOA19.

P.S. The credit markets want blood. They want parked airplanes and an old fashioned merger that removes a bunch of capacity. To the extent that the market is not impressed with the ideas hedge funds have for running an airline, ot would not surprised me if this merger began to unravel.

Thankyou for your calm answer. Sounds like we are all tryng to figure things out. We just hear a different tail over here and are tryng to sort through this mess and move on.

 

[Kroll]

That tells you nothing other than they all took the easy way out, to the detriment of their pilots, rather than step up the plate to participate.

Fins your a level headed guy I can tell. I guess all I can say here how do you know we took the easy way out? You sure it wasn't your guys. From my understanding we got to a point where no-one would move. Then arbitrate. Isn't that what we ask for? So who step away from the binding arbitration.

Now we have lost that old contract and we are back to arbitration. DALPA MEC appears to have divided the two side because of siding with mngmt. So who has caused more harm to the combined pilot group?

 

[tomgoodman]

Winds of change

I suggest that, before bashing either MEC, we acknowledge that neither one could afford to get too far in front of their membership. Throwing yourself on a political grenade "for the good of all" sounds noble, but eliminates your usefulness in future battles, which are sure to come. The situation (and some pilot opinions), have changed in the last few days, and new SLI negotiations may now be more productive. There's still time to achieve a pre-merger agreement.

 

[Cobra17]

It doesn't really matter which uniform you wear or which side of the argument you are on. Anyone seriously think it will be an enjoyable place to work when half the employees (or at least the ones that are still around) feel they got screwed by the other half?

 

[justin15e]

I disagree veiw period. Why did you go into a rant? It was meant to be a calmly asked question. Nothing more. You've stated your point and it has some merit in areas but I disagree with it. Have you been furloughed? I doubt it because of your posted time.

I don't expect much but I don't feel that I should be junior to someone hired a month ago.

I went into a Rant because this type of attitude makes me angry. Like I said, it's the attitude that people need to "pay their dues" in order to get something in this industry (translation:take it in the shorts so that old guys can live it up). The industry is based on, put in your time, and you will get all your wildest dreams. But then when those dreams crash when mergers happen, we wonder what has happened.

Does it matter that I've never been furloughed? Do I need to be furloughed in order to understand that being furloughed stinks?

I agree, as a general rule, if you've been at your company for a few years and being integrated with a person who has been on station only a month, I'd say your pretty safe to say you won't be put behind them. However, it doesn't matter if you've been at your company for 25 years, if you're at the bottom of your list at your current company, you will be at the bottom of the list at the combined company.

You know what is a big problem with this industry? It's way too top loaded. Why do all the senior guys get "all" the best deals: the best routes, the best aircraft, the best hubs, the best schedule, the best pay, the most days off each month, the most vacation, etc.

How about this to blow you old airline pilots minds?

How about change the seniority system so that seniority doesn't cover what routes you fly?

This way seniority doesn't matter "as" much. It would basically be in place to determine the aircraft you fly, bases , and FO/Capt positions. That way, a few percentage points either way won't matter as much as it would have before.

I know, it's a ridiculous idea since the old guys would never go for it. They've put in their "dues" and the industry "owes" them. There are too many old, and as Obama would say, "bitter", people to get some real change to make the profession better.

Oh, and I can already sense the replies... "You haven't been in the industry long enough to have an opinion." "You wouldn't say that if you've been flying for 25 years". Whatever, try thinking outside your comfort zone once in a while.

 

[Occam's Razor]

My natural inclination is to be suspicious of any actions by a fellow MEC that compel them to hire a PR firm to sell to the membership.

 

[FDJ2]

Our MEC, that often has internal strife over residual issues from the last merger, was unanimous in saying "no way" to DALPA's last SLI position.

Interersting. Residual internal strife, the product of an arbitrated award. AAA/AWA also have strife, the product of an arbitrated award. Yet we Delta pilots have integrated PAA pilots and Western pilots without that internal strife. The product of a negotiated awards.

You said "no way" to the option afforded by the transaction framework agreement. That's cool. We respect that. Move on. We did, and we crafted an LOA with our own leverage.

Moak categorically rejected expedited arbitration.

What is expedited arbitration? Where is it defined? Is it in our contract? Is it in yours? Why should we? Why should you? Isn't arbitration for losers?

Sorry, but that speaks volumes.

It speaks volumes about an MEC with common sense, that is not afraid to negotiate an award and stand by it.

ALPA merger policy has its procedures for a reason. It's in our contract, since we were unable to capture the value pre announcement of the merger, as outlined in the transaction framework agreement, we have ALPA policy. Let's follow that path. Hopefully to a negotiated outcome.

I'll concede you guys have had your talking points and PR down from day one, but it's not going to be decided here or in the press.

We have been focused and prepared since day one. We weren't going to lose an opportunity to capture value due to an inability of our respective MECs to reach a negotiated result on SLI.

Ultimately you will come to the same conclusion we have, that the road forward is to enter into joint contract negotiations. The sooner the better. If you pretend there is no timeline to capture value, like you did with the TFA, you'll be left out in the cold again. That's not a threat, that's reality. Believe it or not, the whole world doesn't stop and wait for you to make a decision.

 

[General Lee]

Fins your a level headed guy I can tell. I guess all I can say here how do you know we took the easy way out? You sure it wasn't your guys. From my understanding we got to a point where no-one would move. Then arbitrate. Isn't that what we ask for? So who step away from the binding arbitration.

Now we have lost that old contract and we are back to arbitration. DALPA MEC appears to have divided the two side because of siding with mngmt. So who has caused more harm to the combined pilot group?

So, if someone has a weaker case, and knows it, they shouldn't negotiate so there could be a chance to abritrate it and MAYBE win anyway? They kept the pension, had a lot of older planes, worse bases, and would get a pay raise along with losing their boss that hates them. Hmmmmmm. I guess that is NOT good enough. Let's roll the dice and hopefully win something with someone who really doesn't care, and if we lose we can blame it on them!! A win win.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

I disagree veiw period. Why did you go into a rant? It was meant to be a calmly asked question. Nothing more. You've stated your point and it has some merit in areas but I disagree with it. Have you been furloughed? I doubt it because of your posted time.

I don't expect much but I don't feel that I should be junior to someone hired a month ago.

When USAir and AWA had arbitration, the arbitrator put the bottom USAir guy at the time at the bottom of the list next to the bottom AWA guy, even though he had 17 years at USAir. If you are in the bottom 1%, of one company, you should be in the bottom 1% when merged with a like sized company. (hey, we are even bigger than you guys). That is called relative seniority. Nicalau saw it, and any other arbitrator will also likely see it that way. Add in there that your DC9s are the smallest mainline plane between the two airlines, and the first planes that would continue to get parked if oil continues to rise, then it would make sense also.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[~~~^~~~]

The ALPA Reps are starting to come out and talk. One surprise was that apparently Delta is NOT in favor of arbitration and not going there. They dispute the comments made by the NWA MEC in their communication and add color to say the NWA made some assumptions. The absence of a "no" to arbitration should not be interpreted as a "yes."

Point being - please disregard my post on "arbitration" versus "expedited arbitration" since although you think you knew what I meant, I in fact did not know what I was writing about.

The better option is a negotiated resolution, I think we all know that. The lines of communications between our MEC's are OPEN.

 

[~~~^~~~]

My natural inclination is to be suspicious of any actions by a fellow MEC that compel them to hire a PR firm to sell to the membership.

What if the MEC has superior information?

No line pilot wants to be merged. However, the train was leaving the station and the choices were to get on board or be left behind.

The NWA pilots' representatives made a decision that left money on the table. I'm not going to pass judgement on their decision from a NWA perspective, but the decision probably helped the Delta pilots. Of course, I should not write that because the long term truth is, we need to work this out and work together.

 

[FDJ2]

My natural inclination is to be suspicious of any actions by a fellow MEC that compel them to hire a PR firm to sell to the membership.

My natural inclination is to be suspicious of a fellow MEC that is suspicious of itself and spent the better part of 2 decades fighting each other.

But to each his own.

Any idea how the NWALPA voting member on the NWA BODs voted on the merger?

 

[Relic01]

This was forwarded to me written by a CAL pilot:


During the strike of 98' (DAL pilots ask CMR how to spell it) we had the saying "A lie is half way the world before the truth gets it's boots on"

The truth is getting it's boots on, and DALPA is going to look like the weak dick Bendict Arnolds they are IMO.

That statement was made on a internal CAL Forum...ow did it make it here? Hum...

 

[comrcap]

Dalpa has been boning CMR for years. They were just waiting for the BIG FISH! That's why we slapped the RJDC on them. I guess ALPA will stand back and watch as usual..

 

[PuffDriver]

Dalpa has been boning CMR for years. They were just waiting for the BIG FISH! That's why we slapped the RJDC on them. I guess ALPA will stand back and watch as usual..

Yeah, you really showed them.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Dalpa has been boning CMR for years. They were just waiting for the BIG FISH! That's why we slapped the RJDC on them. I guess ALPA will stand back and watch as usual..

That helps

Meanwhile the local politicians come out of a meeting with Ed Bastian and say things like "we hope Comair's long association with Delta Air Lines continues" what does that mean?