What Others Think of the DAL MEC

[jkkdca]

I have heard Lee Moak talk in the past few months. He says the same things. Here is my take.

He has a vision for Delta. He sees globalization as inevitable and wants DAL to be a part of it. He sees Skyteam as our ticket to the show which is global airline travel. He wants Skyteam to be a leader. He thinks the merger is not only inevitable but very good for DAL pilots. He wants it to happen.

He feels that a profitable airline leads to more pay for the pilots. He feels an unprofitable airline leads to pay cuts for pilots. Alot of DAL pilots have critisized him for what they call "getting in bed with mgmt". He sees it as establishing a repore to lead to better communications which lead to a better working relationship which leads to a profitable company which leads to higher pay for the DAL pilots.

His vision for the SLI was to come in not as adversaries to NWALPA but as partners. He came in not to start by shooting for the moon and negotiating from there but to start in his mind at what he felt was fair. I think the reason he did not go for the arbitration was because he felt it would not show solidarity with the NW pilots. Seriously. He wanted to be a ground breaker in cooperation with two pilot groups.

Again, please read some of the other posts which contain his memos to us. He wants to have you all DAL pilots. In negotiations he was adament about no seperation of the pilots like at NWA for the fact that it alienated people from each other.

I saw on this webboard many times before that the NW pilots didn't believe anything we were hearing about the contract. We were told EVERYONE would have parity as soon as possible. I think it would not be possible for NW to get parity until the airline was running as a single certificate anyway, so whats the big deal? Think of it as mgmt at DAL rewarded the DAL pilots for going along with the merger,)which remember Moak wants too), and the NW pilots get to ride it as they come on board.

Not me or any other DAL pilot wants to ride in a cockpit with a NW guy who is making less than another Capt. BELIEVE ME! It does'nt make sense on so many levels. Please get out of this misstrust mentality. No one threw anyone under the bus. We WANT you on our pay scales, we NEED you on our pay scales, work rules, etc.

 

[~~~^~~~]

I'm overall pleased with the Delta MEC's actions throughout this process.

We do need the the NWA pilots on board, ASAP.

 

[sabreliner]

I believe that as a union, our job is NOT to as a knee jerk reaction oppose anything that management approaches us with, but to carefully evaluate and come to a decision as to how to proceed. The DAL MEC did this, and decided it was better to work from within the process than to get all fired up and squander any opportunity we may have to shape a deal to our advantage.

Granted there are times when it is necessary for a union to say enough, but it is not every time. I for one believe that the DAL MEC has been very sucessful in their approach to MGMT/Union relations, and hope that the NWA guys see the benefits that has gained us.

You need to look no further than the bankruptcy era contracts that many of us are working under. While we at Delta lost a lot, we are still far better off than any of our contemporaries, and even better off than our collegues at CAL with their non bankruptcy contract. They didn't save as much as they did by demanding and threatening and stomping their feet.

I support the DAL MEC's direction, and hope the we can bring the NWA guys up at least to our level as soon as possible so that we can all move forward together.

 

[dtfl]

Your rationalizations are stating to sound like that of another group of pilots from a few decades ago. Hell of a legacy you guys are creating for yourselves. I hope that bed you made with management is real cozy because they are the only friends you are going to have for a long time.

And your constant bitching and whining and declaring your 78s orders and promised retirements are grounds for your list are getting old too.

There is only one way this is going to be worked out and that is with cool heads looking forward. Let me ask you what YOUR MEC would have done if the shoe were on the other foot? Hmm? I shudder to think, actually, from the way a lot of the NWA posters act. I am sure you guys are FAR from the norm there..and I am glad.

Send your smart folks who care about making something work and building an airline that can AFFORD to pay us all more...and provide some job security.

Have you gotten your new flight case sticker with F U and a widget after it yet?

 

[Kroll]

I'm overall pleased with the Delta MEC's actions throughout this process.

We do need the the NWA pilots on board, ASAP.

Are you overall pleased with giving up on scope? I must admit I don't know the details but any scope relief is a bad move on DALPA part. Can the combined group really take it back off the table? DALPA just potientially sold out the bottom of both groups. Why?

I find it funny that most of these posts on this thread are from DAL guys tryng to justify your MEC position. Most you guys do a lot of finger pointing blaming NWA MEC without knowing any facts............It all hearsay. Were you guys in the meetings? Oh you heard it from your captain who heard it from his sisters cousins brothers who works for UAL. I see.

From my position I feel DALPA MEC made a huge mistake going to Mngmt. It shows distrust and shows a lack of willingness to "really" work things out. So instead DALPA went crying to daddy and have weakened this future pilot groups unity.

This battle is all about sli........the rumor was we were close. Who walked away from the table? I don't know........do you?

From the NWA guys I talk to we want to get this resolved and move on with our lives.

Let me ask you guys a question. Do think it is fair that a NWA guy hired before Sept 11th furloughed 5+ years should be junior to guys hired after that?

Let stop the blame game and finger pointing and resolve this and move with our lives.

 

[grinder]

I've worked in both systems and now work for neither. Each company has a unique culture and relationship with management. What has happened already with the pilots should be no surprise to anyone. I think the pilots might be able to work something out as common sense may prevail, but its really going to get crazy with the other labor groups who will all be necessary to run the airline. Think Detroit Blue Collar vs. Atlanta Genteel.

Grinder.

 

[400ADude]

Did anyone really believe the DAL pilots would look out for someone other than themselves? The world revolves around them....just ask them.....

I'm just surprised at how many people are surprised....This is how ALPA is set up....

There world is going to revolve around 115 barrell oil....for now. Merger or not both of these companies have fiscal problems ahead. IMO Unprofitable routes will be cut which could lead to forloughs or another BK 11 visit in which management will cut their wages. Who really knows though??? Glad I am not there.

 

[PCL_128]

Moak (and I'll concede this is not all DAL pilots) has sided with DAL management + NWA management to disadvantage our bargaining position and to impose your "fair" SLI on us, to acheive through duplicty what was stalled at the negotiating table.

Agreed. It's disappointing to see so many DAL pilots happy with their MEC's actions on this matter. And this is coming from someone who has always been a strong supporter of Captain Moak and the DAL MEC. A very disappointing turn of events.

 

[justin15e]

Let me ask you guys a question. Do think it is fair that a NWA guy hired before Sept 11th furloughed 5+ years should be junior to guys hired after that?

I think people that ask this question need to step back and take a look at the big picture. I don't care who was hired before Sept 11th and who was hired after Sept 11th. It doesn't matter. PERIOD.

Why doesn't it matter? Because Sept 11th affected everyone, not just those who were furloughed, but it also affected those people who were hoping to get hired prior to Sept 11th. So, what if you were someone who had to put off your dream job for 5+ years because no one was hiring? How are you going to factor that into seniority integration? The answer is you can't.

Those people who were furloughed after Sept 11th, I feel sorry for you and it sux that it happened. However, your furlough is the fault of your management's business plan and events that no one can control. Does this mean because of that, pilots at another company that have been hiring a lot more new hires should be penalized for what happened to you? No.

Who should you take your anger and frustration out on? Your company. Demand retribution from them. And if your merging currently, demand retribution from the new company through wages and QOL enhancements.

If a newhire at company X is say 90% seniority in his/her company, and a ex-furlough-ee is 90% in their company (even if they have been on their list for 7 years), how is it fair to staple the 90% guy newhire to the new integrated list? After you put the newhires behind your "Sept 11th furloughees" , now that guy/girl is potentially at 80%. Wow, good for that person, they just got paid back for their furlough status by taking it out on a fellow pilot. Botom line is it isn't fair.

This kind of BS thinking that a furloughee has already put in his "dues" or something like that is the same reason newhires have to put up with a BS first year payscale. No one should have to put up with welfare level wages just because you are a newhire.

So, another question. Lets say CAL does merge with UA. CAL has 2.5 year Captains (newhires after Sept 11th). UA's youngest Capt is ~ 10 years. So if they merge, do all the new guys at CAL since Sept 11th get stapled as well and lose their Capt in the new company? No, of course not.

Good luck to everyone, but if you think your gonna get preferential treatment on a seniority list because you were furloughed after 9/11 you've got another thing coming.

RANT OFF.

 

[Cobra17]

I don't care who was hired after Sept 11th and who was hired after Sept 11th. It doesn't matter. PERIOD.

What?

 

[FDJ2]

Are you overall pleased with giving up on scope?

What scope was given up? What scope was enhanced?

I must admit I don't know the details

Then learn them before you pontificate.

 

[FDJ2]

I don't care who was hired after Sept 11th and who was hired after Sept 11th. It doesn't matter. PERIOD.

What?

I believe wha he meant to say, is it doesn't mater who was hired before 9/11 and who was hired after 9/11.

The last time I checked, DOH was taken out of ALPA'S merger policy. He has a valid point.

 

[justin15e]

I don't care who was hired after Sept 11th and who was hired after Sept 11th. It doesn't matter. PERIOD.

What?

Sorry. Fixed the typo in the previous post.

 

[Fly4hire]

This is what our reps told us they (DALPA) was actually proposing. Relative seniority whereby all pilots from both airlines would maintain there previous RS within 1-2%. Do you think that is unfair? Did you know that DAL has almost Twice the widebodies of NWA? So at the same relative seniority, NWA pilots would hold closer to widebody at the merged DAL then at NWA. Do you agree with this?

We were told NWALPA wanted the first 400-500 positions for themselves and the last 2000 positions to go to DAL pilots. Is this what you know to be true?

Complete and utter nonsense.

Day one would have looked acceptable, by year 3 there would have been only 50 NWA pilots left on the 747-400, by year 10 none.

The widebodies count include your 757's and domestic 767 but not our 757's both intl or domestic.

DALPA wanted to count all their options, none of ours

If you look simply at the demographics of hiring over the last year DAL hired more, therefore has more pilots on the bottom portion of the list, but would have still severely biased the DAL list.

As to the "do no harm to NWA TA" upping to 255 70 seater's does no harm? (Again DAL set the bar lower for Scope) Nor does taking ratios of future NW 787 options to be flown and counted for DAL integration calculations?

The DALPA TA most certainly protects DAL pilots, and was designed to exert pressure on the NW pilots and disadvantage their leverage to get a fair deal.

Why has Moak reversed his position on no arbitration to now saying he will?

 

[PuffDriver]

Complete horsesh*t.

Right, you weren't there, and we talked with the guy who was there. We have one side of the story, and other side "won't ever be told". That tells me a lot. Methinks somebody doesn't WANT the story told.

Educate yourself, THEN come back and talk to us.

 

[Fly4hire]

Right, you weren't there, and we talked with the guy who was there. We have one side of the story, and other side "won't ever be told". That tells me a lot. Methinks somebody doesn't WANT the story told.

Educate yourself, THEN come back and talk to us.

I've talked to the guys who were there on our side. What your guys who were there report doesn't even meet in the middle from what our guys reported. Obviously it's in your interest to think your side is right, as it is mine. Where is the truth?

Our MEC, that often has internal strife over residual issues from the last merger, was unanimous in saying "no way" to DALPA's last SLI position.

Moak categorically rejected expedited arbitration.

Sorry, but that speaks volumes.

I'll concede you guys have had your talking points and PR down from day one, but it's not going to be decided here or in the press.

 

[PuffDriver]

I've talked to the guys who were there on our side. What your guys who were there report doesn't even meet in the middle from what our guys reported. Obviously it's in your interest to think your side is right, as it is mine. Where is the truth?

Our MEC, that often has internal strife over residual issues from the last merger, was unanimous in saying "no way" to DALPA's last SLI position.

Moak categorically rejected expedited arbitration.

Sorry, but that speaks volumes.

I'll concede you guys have had your talking points and PR down from day one, but it's not going to be decided here or in the press.

That's all correct. You have nothing to add. I don't know about what part of "we will not willingly accept arbitration" you don't get, but there it is again. Go ahead and stalemate, while the earnings reports start to trickle out. You will eventually get your arbitration. Things will look a lot different, however, on PID day-and your MEC knows it.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Fly4hire:

Do you understand that "expedited arbitration" and "arbitration" are two different things?

Kroll:

Candidly, I have more research to do before taking a position for, or against, LOA19. Those who negotiated it are far ahead of me right now.

I think the ratio,RJ to mainline may have preserved the inferior Delta language and if that is the case, I do not like that part when you consider the economic realities of the DC9.

Also, if LOA 19 was a scope sale then it harms the junior members of the list the most. Weighting the equity payout to the more senior pilots is not equitable.

Does anyone know if NWA's Jets for Jobs provisions were retained? In any event, we need that flying one one list.

I've got a lot of studying to do before completely understanding the effects of LOA19. I hope the NWA pilots get on board and we negotiate something together than eclipses LOA19.

P.S. The credit markets want blood. They want parked airplanes and an old fashioned merger that removes a bunch of capacity. To the extent that the market is not impressed with the ideas hedge funds have for running an airline, ot would not surprised me if this merger began to unravel.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Our MEC, that often has internal strife over residual issues from the last merger, was unanimous in saying "no way" to DALPA's last SLI position.

That tells you nothing other than they all took the easy way out, to the detriment of their pilots, rather than step up the plate to participate.

If Chuck Yeager would have never left his farm, we would have no idea he could fly an airplane.

 

[jkkdca]

Fly4hire, this is great. You talked to your negotiaters. What exactly was your position on the SLI? Will you please tell us why YOU think our last proposal was not fair? Also will you tell us what you think would be a fair SLI? I am very curious. Stop complaining. I have not seen one post from a nwa pilot with any ideas. Just accusations. thanks