What Others Think of the DAL MEC

[Fly4hire]

This was forwarded to me written by a CAL pilot:

"...Never in a million years did I see coming what happened at DAL - namely, that the DAL pilots would foresake (I wanted to use another term) their ALPA
brothers at NW and do a separate deal with management. Certainly I considered that these managements could force a merger without pilot consent or participation, but in that case I fully expected the two pilot groups to lock arms and march with one voice. Lee Moak at DAL ALPA is Judas as far as I'm concerned. I just can't see it any other way...."

During the strike of 98' (DAL pilots ask CMR how to spell it) we had the saying "A lie is half way the world before the truth gets it's boots on"

The truth is getting it's boots on, and DALPA is going to look like the weak dick Bendict Arnolds they are IMO.

 

[PuffDriver]

This was fowarderd to me written by a CAL pilot:

Yeah, the continental pilots should be throwing stones. Judas is welcoming scabs back into the fold at ALPA.

Nuff said

 

[IronCityBlue]

It all depends on who you believe regarding each sides SLI proposals to eachother. If you believe the Delta version, where NWA pilots tried to get super seniority and flush Delta pilots in the event DC-9's are parked, get credit for phantom options while not giving credit for firm orders for an existing plane, etc. then what are they supposed to do? A sweet 2 billion dollar deal was already trashed because the two sides couldn't agree. Very few, if any, of us actually know either side's position, much less both. But if one side was trying to rape the other with no compromise, and a good deal was ruined in the process and that side still wouldn't budge, there is nothing wrong with negotiating a bridge contract for pay increases during what is very obviouslly going to be an inevitable and very protracted process.

 

[Fly4hire]

Yeah, the continental pilots should be throwing stones. Judas is welcoming scabs back into the fold at ALPA.

Nuff said

We're not talking about CAL.

Was it going to be a rough road getting a workable SLI we could all live with? You bet. Simply amazing you were bought off so easily.

But instead of doing the work, DALPA decided to cross over to the enemy side, "cut and run", break ranks, and deserted their post. Dismissed

Your rationalizations are stating to sound like that of another group of pilots from a few decades ago. Hell of a legacy you guys are creating for yourselves. I hope that bed you made with management is real cozy because they are the only friends you are going to have for a long time.

 

[JohnQ]

This was forwarded to me written by a CAL pilot:


During the strike of 98' (DAL pilots ask CMR how to spell it) we had the saying "A lie is half way the world before the truth gets it's boots on"

The truth is getting it's boots on, and DALPA is going to look like the weak dick Bendict Arnolds they are IMO.

Nice attitude. I do remember sending ALPA monthly assessment checks so Comair F/Os could make more money NOT flying than if they were. I also remember checking every flight I flew to make sure that DAL mgmt didn't try to reallocate CMR flying onto mainline jets.

For all that, CMR pilots then turned around and sued us to try and sneak their way onto our seniority list! Ask me if I take one syllable of your bile seriously.

 

[jkkdca]

Alot of emotion and no facts what so ever. Please look around at some other posts for the letters from DALPA regarding the NWA pilots and how bad we are NOT trying to screw them. Of course if you are a conspiicy theorist like alot of the people here, then there is no hope for you. Why do you misrust so much?

 

[FmrFreightDog]

This was forwarded to me written by a CAL pilot:


During the strike of 98' (DAL pilots ask CMR how to spell it) we had the saying "A lie is half way the world before the truth gets it's boots on"

The truth is getting it's boots on, and DALPA is going to look like the weak dick Bendict Arnolds they are IMO.

I'm not sure that stirring sh*t up just for the sake of stirring sh*t up is particularly constructive at this point, is it?

IMO, there's still plenty of room for cooler heads to prevail on this thing, and sitting around poking at each other with sticks just isn't going to help anyone.

I, for one, will think hurling insults and antagonizing each other is playing right into the money-men's hands and weakening BOTH groups.

I'd better stop, Fins might accuse me of writing kum-by-ya posts and wasting space.

 

[Fly4hire]

Alot of emotion and no facts what so ever. Please look around at some other posts for the letters from DALPA regarding the NWA pilots and how bad we are NOT trying to screw them. Of course if you are a conspiicy theorist like alot of the people here, then there is no hope for you. Why do you misrust so much?

I'll try and make it simple for you -

NWA pilots have had to fight tooth and nail for years for every scrap of contract and to have the contract we do have honored.

Moak (and I'll concede this is not all DAL pilots) has sided with DAL management + NWA management to disadvantage our bargaining position and to impose your "fair" SLI on us, to acheive through duplicty what was stalled at the negotiating table.

The manager you decided to trust is the same one that spent the aforementioned years trying to screw the NWA pilots.

I think you will end up regretting that choice.

 

[Noserider76]

Was it going to be a rough road getting a workable SLI we could all live with? You bet. Simply amazing you were bought off so easily.

But instead of doing the work, DALPA decided to cross over to the enemy side, "cut and run", break ranks, and deserted their post. Dismissed

Your rationalizations are stating to sound like that of another group of pilots from a few decades ago. Hell of a legacy you guys are creating for yourselves. I hope that bed you made with management is real cozy because they are the only friends you are going to have for a long time.

DALPA = Dishonor, Deceit, Duplicity

FUD

The reality is DALPA negotiates for Delta pilots. NWALPA negotiates for NW pilots. DALPA was able to secure a little for the Delta pilots without adversely affecting the NW pilots after it became clear the SLI was not happening and the merger was. I've heard first hand the way your Premium Widebody Flying merger committee worked. One group came in with compromise in mind the other opened up with both barrels. The well was poisoned from the beginning.
Confrontation is an addiction for you guys. The reality is, you think DL pilots threw you under the bus. I don't see it at all but I'm certain if the roles were reversed you would have backed over us and run us over a second time.

Please help us kill this idiotic hedge fund idea by not showing up for work, using all the gas you can, and putting stickers all over your flight kit.

 

[FmrFreightDog]

Confrontation is an addiction for you guys. The reality is, you think DL pilots threw you under the bus. If the roles were reversed you would have backed over us and run us over a second time.

See.. more needless "Stick-poking". How about this? When one group actually successfully screws the other group, then we can have a fist-fight (ok, the General can resort to fingernail scratching and hair pulling). Until then, perhaps we could actually direct our anger and frustration towards the appropriate people (hint... NOT other pilots)

Whatever, you guys go at it. I'm done with slinging mud for now, because it only serves the people who stand to gain by dividing us (hint again... NOT other pilots).

 

[Tanker Clown]

I always thought that DALPA did a fine job of screwing themselves.

 

[IronCityBlue]

The new letter to NWA pilots promised specifics about recent events, yet delivered nothing (in terms of facts) not already publicly known by everyone, yet plenty of their own opinions. Nothing whatsoever was specifically mentioned about their SLI proposal, nor did they deny their asinine "premium widebody" and phantom 787 based super seniority fantasy ultimatum. They then proceded to blame the Delta pilots for ramming a SLI down their throats, when the Delta LOA doesn't or can't force them to accept anything other than whatever they would have been willing to negotiate anyway. They accuse Delta pilots of being traitors, yet they expected the Delta pilots to use what little unique contractual resistance they had (over and above what is standard in any ALPA contract) to help facilitate their own raping of the Delta pilot seniority list. Nice.

So the Delta pilots recognise a USAir North/South fight brewing no matter what, and at least get a portion of the equity stake the NWA pilot leadership squandered for both groups with their all or nothing super seniority demands to begin with.

The merger was happening anyway, and the NWA contract was dramatically worse than the Delta contract. The better of the two contracts was going to be the floor for a combined contract anyway, so raising it up, even if by a little, helps both groups. The B scale rhetoric is laughable. Even without LOA19 the NWA contract was already a B scale. Either way they will get raises and now when a SLI is reached they will get bigger raises.

Their super seniority pipe dream is simply not going to happen, no matter what. Everyone agrees on one thing though, better off without the merger than to get steamrolled by another pilot group's arrogance.

 

[FDJ2]

I'll try and make it simple for you -

NWA pilots have had to fight tooth and nail for years for every scrap of contract and to have the contract we do have honored.

So has everyone else sport. What part of your contract, that you fought tooth and nail for" was not honored."

Moak (and I'll concede this is not all DAL pilots) has sided with DAL management + NWA management to disadvantage our bargaining position and to impose your "fair" SLI on us, to acheive through duplicty what was stalled at the negotiating table.

SLI was not negotiated. The Delta pilots negotiated a LOA with their management because the Delta pilots preserved vital sections of their contract at great cost. The NWA pilots had different priorities. No one asked the NWA pilots for relief because none was needed. You had already conceded it.

The manager you decided to trust is the same one that spent the aforementioned years trying to screw the NWA pilots.

Trust has nothing to do with it. That's why it's a contract, not a hand shake.

I think you will end up regretting that choice.

Thanks for the lecture, but at the end of the day it is an LOA between DAL pilots and DAL management based on the leverage we brought to the transaction. It's a pay raise, equity, and some furlough and whipsaw protection. If you want to wonder why you weren't included in this LOA, look to your own MEC and your own contract.

 

[Redmeat]

See.. more needless "Stick-poking". How about this? When one group actually successfully screws the other group, then we can have a fist-fight (ok, the General can resort to fingernail scratching and hair pulling). Until then, perhaps we could actually direct our anger and frustration towards the appropriate people (hint... NOT other pilots)

Whatever, you guys go at it. I'm done with slinging mud for now, because it only serves the people who stand to gain by dividing us (hint again... NOT other pilots).

I think if you have two brain cells to rub together you realize it's a pretty safe bet to believe the NW "negotiating team" fugged this up.

And now the political damage control method is to 'oppose the merger'.

The biggest true difference between the two company cultures has already reared it's ugly head:

The Labor/ Management relationship.

Delta pilots met a road block and went around it because they have communication with their management.

that particular maneuver is impossible at NWA.

I lose more confidence in this place everyday.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Did anyone really believe the DAL pilots would look out for someone other than themselves? The world revolves around them....just ask them.....

I'm just surprised at how many people are surprised....This is how ALPA is set up....

 

[Truckdriver]

Did anyone really believe the DAL pilots would look out for someone other than themselves? The world revolves around them....just ask them.....

I'm just surprised at how many people are surprised....This is how ALPA is set up....

Until there is one national seniority list wouldn't you expect your MEC to look out for you and only you? What was our MEC suppose to do, give up pay raises, equity, and contract improvements over the next 4 years just so the disfunctional NWA MEC would be happy? If they wanted pay raises and equity, they knew what they needed to do to get it. They didn't do it and until we see what the SLI proposals were, we really can't say who screwed who here. This can still all work out fine, it will just take alot longer and that is what the Delta MEC was doing with the LOA is getting us something while we spend the next couple of years working this out. I hope that someday everyone will get along, but that's probably not gonna be the case.

 

[FDJ2]

I think if you have two brain cells to rub together you realize it's a pretty safe bet to believe the NW "negotiating team" fugged this up.

And now the political damage control method is to 'oppose the merger'.

The biggest true difference between the two company cultures has already reared it's ugly head:

The Labor/ Management relationship.

Delta pilots met a road block and went around it because they have communication with their management.

that particular maneuver is impossible at NWA.

I lose more confidence in this place everyday.

There's still work to be done for all of "us". We can work together on negotiating a joint contract, or we can pretend there is no timeline and let events unfold without "us".

There are three types of pilots. Those who make things happen, those who watch things happen and those who say "what happened." Let's try to be the ones who make things happen.

You can't get there pretending the whole world will wait on you or court you, or by negotiating in the rear view mirror, looking at opportunities that have already passed you by.

 

[Fly4hire]

I think if you have two brain cells to rub together you realize it's a pretty safe bet to believe the NW "negotiating team" fugged this up.

Obviously you didn't use your abundance of brain cells to pick up the phone and talk to your Reps about what DALPA was actually proposing. Either that or your Rep has the initials JS and you have a 3 digit or better seniority number.

 

[jkkdca]

This is what our reps told us they (DALPA) was actually proposing. Relative seniority whereby all pilots from both airlines would maintain there previous RS within 1-2%. Do you think that is unfair? Did you know that DAL has almost Twice the widebodies of NWA? So at the same relative seniority, NWA pilots would hold closer to widebody at the merged DAL then at NWA. Do you agree with this?

We were told NWALPA wanted the first 400-500 positions for themselves and the last 2000 positions to go to DAL pilots. Is this what you know to be true?

 

[Redmeat]

Obviously you didn't use your abundance of brain cells to pick up the phone and talk to your Reps about what DALPA was actually proposing. Either that or your Rep has the initials JS and you have a 3 digit or better seniority number.

Dude...after the BK road show Armageddon prediction...and what ACTUALLY went down...all I hear these days is Bwaa Ba Bwaa Ba Bwaa Bwaa Bwaa (like the Charlie Brown cartoon phone character) when it comes to NW intel.

You wanna believe it? Go righta head.

 

[jkkdca]

I have heard Lee Moak talk in the past few months. He says the same things. Here is my take.

He has a vision for Delta. He sees globalization as inevitable and wants DAL to be a part of it. He sees Skyteam as our ticket to the show which is global airline travel. He wants Skyteam to be a leader. He thinks the merger is not only inevitable but very good for DAL pilots. He wants it to happen.

He feels that a profitable airline leads to more pay for the pilots. He feels an unprofitable airline leads to pay cuts for pilots. Alot of DAL pilots have critisized him for what they call "getting in bed with mgmt". He sees it as establishing a repore to lead to better communications which lead to a better working relationship which leads to a profitable company which leads to higher pay for the DAL pilots.

His vision for the SLI was to come in not as adversaries to NWALPA but as partners. He came in not to start by shooting for the moon and negotiating from there but to start in his mind at what he felt was fair. I think the reason he did not go for the arbitration was because he felt it would not show solidarity with the NW pilots. Seriously. He wanted to be a ground breaker in cooperation with two pilot groups.

Again, please read some of the other posts which contain his memos to us. He wants to have you all DAL pilots. In negotiations he was adament about no seperation of the pilots like at NWA for the fact that it alienated people from each other.

I saw on this webboard many times before that the NW pilots didn't believe anything we were hearing about the contract. We were told EVERYONE would have parity as soon as possible. I think it would not be possible for NW to get parity until the airline was running as a single certificate anyway, so whats the big deal? Think of it as mgmt at DAL rewarded the DAL pilots for going along with the merger,)which remember Moak wants too), and the NW pilots get to ride it as they come on board.

Not me or any other DAL pilot wants to ride in a cockpit with a NW guy who is making less than another Capt. BELIEVE ME! It does'nt make sense on so many levels. Please get out of this misstrust mentality. No one threw anyone under the bus. We WANT you on our pay scales, we NEED you on our pay scales, work rules, etc.

 

[~~~^~~~]

I'm overall pleased with the Delta MEC's actions throughout this process.

We do need the the NWA pilots on board, ASAP.

 

[sabreliner]

I believe that as a union, our job is NOT to as a knee jerk reaction oppose anything that management approaches us with, but to carefully evaluate and come to a decision as to how to proceed. The DAL MEC did this, and decided it was better to work from within the process than to get all fired up and squander any opportunity we may have to shape a deal to our advantage.

Granted there are times when it is necessary for a union to say enough, but it is not every time. I for one believe that the DAL MEC has been very sucessful in their approach to MGMT/Union relations, and hope that the NWA guys see the benefits that has gained us.

You need to look no further than the bankruptcy era contracts that many of us are working under. While we at Delta lost a lot, we are still far better off than any of our contemporaries, and even better off than our collegues at CAL with their non bankruptcy contract. They didn't save as much as they did by demanding and threatening and stomping their feet.

I support the DAL MEC's direction, and hope the we can bring the NWA guys up at least to our level as soon as possible so that we can all move forward together.

 

[dtfl]

Your rationalizations are stating to sound like that of another group of pilots from a few decades ago. Hell of a legacy you guys are creating for yourselves. I hope that bed you made with management is real cozy because they are the only friends you are going to have for a long time.

And your constant bitching and whining and declaring your 78s orders and promised retirements are grounds for your list are getting old too.

There is only one way this is going to be worked out and that is with cool heads looking forward. Let me ask you what YOUR MEC would have done if the shoe were on the other foot? Hmm? I shudder to think, actually, from the way a lot of the NWA posters act. I am sure you guys are FAR from the norm there..and I am glad.

Send your smart folks who care about making something work and building an airline that can AFFORD to pay us all more...and provide some job security.

Have you gotten your new flight case sticker with F U and a widget after it yet?

 

[Kroll]

I'm overall pleased with the Delta MEC's actions throughout this process.

We do need the the NWA pilots on board, ASAP.

Are you overall pleased with giving up on scope? I must admit I don't know the details but any scope relief is a bad move on DALPA part. Can the combined group really take it back off the table? DALPA just potientially sold out the bottom of both groups. Why?

I find it funny that most of these posts on this thread are from DAL guys tryng to justify your MEC position. Most you guys do a lot of finger pointing blaming NWA MEC without knowing any facts............It all hearsay. Were you guys in the meetings? Oh you heard it from your captain who heard it from his sisters cousins brothers who works for UAL. I see.

From my position I feel DALPA MEC made a huge mistake going to Mngmt. It shows distrust and shows a lack of willingness to "really" work things out. So instead DALPA went crying to daddy and have weakened this future pilot groups unity.

This battle is all about sli........the rumor was we were close. Who walked away from the table? I don't know........do you?

From the NWA guys I talk to we want to get this resolved and move on with our lives.

Let me ask you guys a question. Do think it is fair that a NWA guy hired before Sept 11th furloughed 5+ years should be junior to guys hired after that?

Let stop the blame game and finger pointing and resolve this and move with our lives.

 

[grinder]

I've worked in both systems and now work for neither. Each company has a unique culture and relationship with management. What has happened already with the pilots should be no surprise to anyone. I think the pilots might be able to work something out as common sense may prevail, but its really going to get crazy with the other labor groups who will all be necessary to run the airline. Think Detroit Blue Collar vs. Atlanta Genteel.

Grinder.

 

[400ADude]

Did anyone really believe the DAL pilots would look out for someone other than themselves? The world revolves around them....just ask them.....

I'm just surprised at how many people are surprised....This is how ALPA is set up....

There world is going to revolve around 115 barrell oil....for now. Merger or not both of these companies have fiscal problems ahead. IMO Unprofitable routes will be cut which could lead to forloughs or another BK 11 visit in which management will cut their wages. Who really knows though??? Glad I am not there.

 

[PCL_128]

Moak (and I'll concede this is not all DAL pilots) has sided with DAL management + NWA management to disadvantage our bargaining position and to impose your "fair" SLI on us, to acheive through duplicty what was stalled at the negotiating table.

Agreed. It's disappointing to see so many DAL pilots happy with their MEC's actions on this matter. And this is coming from someone who has always been a strong supporter of Captain Moak and the DAL MEC. A very disappointing turn of events.

 

[justin15e]

Let me ask you guys a question. Do think it is fair that a NWA guy hired before Sept 11th furloughed 5+ years should be junior to guys hired after that?

I think people that ask this question need to step back and take a look at the big picture. I don't care who was hired before Sept 11th and who was hired after Sept 11th. It doesn't matter. PERIOD.

Why doesn't it matter? Because Sept 11th affected everyone, not just those who were furloughed, but it also affected those people who were hoping to get hired prior to Sept 11th. So, what if you were someone who had to put off your dream job for 5+ years because no one was hiring? How are you going to factor that into seniority integration? The answer is you can't.

Those people who were furloughed after Sept 11th, I feel sorry for you and it sux that it happened. However, your furlough is the fault of your management's business plan and events that no one can control. Does this mean because of that, pilots at another company that have been hiring a lot more new hires should be penalized for what happened to you? No.

Who should you take your anger and frustration out on? Your company. Demand retribution from them. And if your merging currently, demand retribution from the new company through wages and QOL enhancements.

If a newhire at company X is say 90% seniority in his/her company, and a ex-furlough-ee is 90% in their company (even if they have been on their list for 7 years), how is it fair to staple the 90% guy newhire to the new integrated list? After you put the newhires behind your "Sept 11th furloughees" , now that guy/girl is potentially at 80%. Wow, good for that person, they just got paid back for their furlough status by taking it out on a fellow pilot. Botom line is it isn't fair.

This kind of BS thinking that a furloughee has already put in his "dues" or something like that is the same reason newhires have to put up with a BS first year payscale. No one should have to put up with welfare level wages just because you are a newhire.

So, another question. Lets say CAL does merge with UA. CAL has 2.5 year Captains (newhires after Sept 11th). UA's youngest Capt is ~ 10 years. So if they merge, do all the new guys at CAL since Sept 11th get stapled as well and lose their Capt in the new company? No, of course not.

Good luck to everyone, but if you think your gonna get preferential treatment on a seniority list because you were furloughed after 9/11 you've got another thing coming.

RANT OFF.

 

[Cobra17]

I don't care who was hired after Sept 11th and who was hired after Sept 11th. It doesn't matter. PERIOD.

What?