What made Eastern GO Under?

[MetroSheriff]

Re: all most right

I do not think that it is correct that Lorenzo bought it to break up. That was more a result than a reason for the purchase.

He felt that if he took over, the tension would be relaxed and he could save it and bought cheap. He was wrong and went ahead to make the best of his investment. He just did not appreciate the ill feelings that existed and the entrenchment.

While he was no saint, he gets a bad rap for a deal here that he did not create. Like dinosaurs, big things take a long time to hit the ground when falling.

Nothing personal, but that is an ADBSURDLY generous mischaracterization of Eastern's demise. Your view of corporate raidership in the 80, Lorenzo in particular, must be interesting through those rose colrored glasses of your yours.

Typhoon has it right. By your twisted logic, Hitler just thought he was improving the "economic" situtation for the Fatherland when he tried to take over Europe. The 6 millionn innocent people he murdered were just victims of unintended circumstance.

Hopefully you will never decide to go into airline management.

 

[Toecutter]

Enigma,

I must say that you live up to your name. Although I disagree with your response to my post, I think your second post was right on the mark. I'm not going to start a "who's the most corrupt administration contest."just because I know it won't change anybody's mind on how they feel. However, the second post answered my thoughts exactly on someones earlier post about why we need unions. I've heard horror stories on what is was like flying for airlines like Value Jet and Fine Air.

 

[Typhoon1244]

Oh and speaking of scabs the guy who started Gulfstream...SCAB!

Yes, they're everywhere. The late Legend Airlines had one in its command structure.

My dad spent a total of two weeks at AirTran during the late Nineties. During ground school he found out the head of their in-house union was a scab. Adios.

As for presidential administrations, I'm not going to waste everybody's time by comparing the level of corruption in each. I'll only remind everyone that Frank Lorenzo was one of George Herbert Walker Bush's larger campaign contributors. Let's just say I'm not a big fan of that gentleman...or his dim-witted sons.

Publisher: I'm still aghast at your view of Lorenzo's work at Eastern. Are you related to him or something? As militant a pilot group as Eastern had...sometimes I'm amazed Lorenzo is still breathing!

You know one way you can tell an airline has class? If the stripes on the cuffs of the pilots' uniform jackets go all the way around the sleeve...the way Eastern's did. When winter rolls around, take a good look at a Delta or ASA pilot's sleeves. (Yeah, ASA's leather jackets are expensive...but they're not as silly-looking as the blazers.)

I was a true E.A.L. baby. My first ride in an airplane was at six months...MIA-SJU, so my mom could show me off to her family. It was a DC-8-60...'course I don't really remember it too well.... Whenever fate ever brought me to some unfamiliar city, if I saw a silver jet with a two-tone blue hockey stick--"Caribbean blue" and "ionosphere blue," of course--I had the funny feeling of still being connected to home. Sounds wierd, I guess.

I miss it...and I didn't even work there!

 

[mckpickle]

WOW good for your dad, that takes gutts!

 

[flight-crew]

One of my mentors who helped me so greatly in my pilot career was (is) a scab. I've known him since I was a young kid and well before I even started flying. He will always be my friend. But I strongly disagree with scabbing. And I think that there will always be a part of me that resents what they have done.

And maybe Eastern would still be around were it not for all the scabs who stole the jobs of the Eastern pilots. Although I was only a young kid when most the scabbing took place (CAL 83', UAL 85', and EAL 89'), I can't help but look back at the past and realize the true damage that these individuals have done to the whole industry. You can really learn a lot about history by looking at the past. For the pilots who truely disagreed with the above strikes and crossed the line, I'm not sure if they totally did it out of greed, but maybe more because of the way they felt. I look at them more as "picked line crossers" or "strike breakers." But the pilots who came right off of the street (SCABS), are scabs in every sense of the word. They knew that there was an active strike in progress and made their decision.

Now if ALPA just wanted to get rid of Frank Lorenzo at CAL and EAL by strikes and didn't care what happened to the striking CAL and EAL pilots, then that was wrong. But you have to remember one thing, a strike is always voted on by the pilots. The pilots voted.

 

[JetPilot500]

I have worked at a non-union carrier that did not respect seniority. I can tell you that in such an environment, the amount of inequity was huge. Upgrades were based upon how well you kissed up, schedules always seemed to reflect who happened to be the favorite, and who was on the outs with managment. Oh Yea, getting on the outs was as easy as refusing to fly a broken/illegal airplane.

There may be some operations out there that are poorly run without a union. But, I worked at several non-union aviation jobs including flight instruction, part 135 and part 91 corporate. I can tell you that in all of those jobs, you were rewarded for hard work and not because of the day you were hired. A pilot was upgraded on ability to do the job...what is wrong with that. The guys who didn't have the ability or weren't "team players" were not given opportunities for advancement. And being a "team player" does not mean bending the rules or kissing butt, it means helping the company out when they need you.

At my 135 job, one day we all got a 25% raise! And that raise had nothing to do with a union strong arming the company into giving the raises. We started to have some turnover because good people were leaving to take higher paying jobs. Well, the laws of economics took over and the company gave everyone a raise to stop the bleeding.

A union contract has its benefits, that is for sure. When you get that many employees, it is nice to have an agreement on how certain things should be handled.

IMO, UAL is in trouble, in part, due to the UNIONS. The Unions have strong armed the company into paying rediculous salaries that the company simply could not afford. And in the process of strong arming the company, they scared away many of the customers. The company didn't agree to those contracts because they suddenly realized they could afford them, they agreed so the UNIONS would stop pushing away all of its customers! No customers, no airline! I don't know one person who tells me they enjoy riding on UAL. They all talk about how bad the employee attitudes are. I choose AA any day before UAL, even if I have to change planes versus going non-stop. A bad attitude should get you fired! However, the unions keep protecting these people who don't deserve the jobs they have.

I've worked for an ALPA airline, and I'll tell you, it is definately part of the reason I did not go back to that job when I was recalled.

There needs to be some reform to all this mess, the system no longer works.

JetPilot500

 

[Typhoon1244]

Now if ALPA just wanted to get rid of Frank Lorenzo at CAL and EAL by strikes and didn't care what happened to the striking CAL and EAL pilots, then that was wrong.

I was about to tell you what a great post that was until I got to this sentence.

ALPA wasn't trying to get rid of Lorenzo, the Eastern pilots (and, of course, the F/A's and mechanics) were trying to get rid of him. The people who got caught in the middle--the rampers, gate agents, etc.--love to blame ALPA for what happened, but that blame is misdirected.

As far as its structire is concerned, ALPA is a little like a religion. There are thousands of (for example) Baptist churches in the country, all with the same basic core beliefs, but each church has its own concerns and does thing its own way. Just as all the ALPA pilot groups have the same core beliefs, but each MEC (in other unions called a "local") does things its own way.

As for your friend, I admit, I have a little respect for someone who has the guts to say "this is wrong" and do what they think is right. It's a little like a soldier who, in combat, decides it's wrong to kill and refuses to take part. But if he gets a handful of his buddies killed...?

 

[Typhoon1244]

A pilot was upgraded on ability to do the job...what is wrong with that. The guys who didn't have the ability or weren't "team players" were not given opportunities for advancement. And being a "team player" does not mean bending the rules or kissing butt, it means helping the company out when they need you.

I know of one non-union carrier where being a "team player" and "helping the company out" mean agreeing to falsify the aircraft log book so that your duty time problem will go away. I know of another where many upgrades are based on management favoritism and nepotism. But I guess you'd prefer that to being a member of a union who could back you up when the company was trying to screw you over.

I've worked for an ALPA airline, and I'll tell you, it is definately part of the reason I did not go back to that job when I was recalled.

I suspect you wouldn't have been happy at that airline whether it was ALPA or not.

Companies, not just airlines, tend to have the unions they deserve. Northwest has a militant pilot group because they have a management team that treats employees like cattle. Employees who are treated with respect don't form unions.

Part 135 outfits, flight schools, and other small operators tend to not have unions because (1) nobody works there long enough to care, and (2) everybody knows that if a union organization was attempted, the company could just go out and find new people who are so desperate for a job, they'll ignore a union. Chicago Express is a perfect model for this. Before 9/11, "Windy City" was just a stepping stone, and the pilots just swallowed the occasional abuses. But now that Osama Bin Laden has decreed that C.E. pilots are stuck where they are for the forseeable future, the pilots are starting to feel differently about ALPA.

ALPA is not perfect by any stretch of the imagination...but it beats the heck out of the alternative.

 

[pilotyip]

Union's

I have worked for two union companies, ALPA and Teamsters.
Both companies are now out of business. The unions came in to fix pilot problems, in fixing the problems, mostly more time off, the airline was not as profitable as it was before the contract, true it was a better place to work with protections, but they had a cost structure and management constraints that made it harder to remain profitable. Sinece they were privately held they elected to do something else with there money and not operate airplanes. I am kinda neautral union wise, but a union can not make a silk purse out of a pig's ear.

 

[skyking1976]

Not to open old wounds...

Lorenzo bought Eastern with the intention of breaking it up and selling it for parts.

Hey Air Wis guys...
Sounds like someone we used to know. Maybe.... Bill Andres? It still makes my stomach turn.

 

[race#53]

Eastern employees needed to look into the future to see how UAL's pilots used the Co's own rules to get what they wanted (be carefull what you ask for though).
A better example is the French that put their lives on the line laying down on the runway and no one flew. A smarter version of the French tactic combined with the UAL pilots would be for several thousand employees to just drive to the airport and obey the speed limit around the terminal, wouldn't that be a sight!!!

 

[rumpletumbler]

I don't think it is as complex as most folks like to make it. Isn't the real reason Eastern went under is because the pilots wouldn't go to work?

RT

 

[publisher]

missed point

Obviously when you post stuff here you try and keep it short (except of course for Surplus1). This leads to generalities and some misconceptions.

My point was that Frank Lorenzo did not take a perfectly good company and drive it into the ground at Eastern. The company was in a death spiral when he showed up.

Lorenzo nor Icahn were ever airline guys. They were entrepeneurs and business opportunists. He misjudged the situation at Eastern. Perhps I am wrong but I see Bryan as much of the problem as he was of any solution. He was entrenched in his position, the employees were entrenched and wanted nothing less than someone who would lead them back to prominance, an airline guy who recognized the history and the value of the name. Lorenzo was not that guy but that guy was not going to show up.

My posts were not a defense of Frank Lorenzo at all. Merely that to lay the blame for the demise of Eastern on him is a bit off base. My feeling is that Borman did the most damage.

When companies like this go down, sharks come around for the feed. Lorenzo was one of those just like Marty fed off it for awhile. They are rarely the people that wounded the animal.

Many excellent people were hurt over Eastern and its demise. Some crossed and some did not. There are no kudo's to be passed out here for unionism or much of anything else for they turned out to be just as bad as the management they were fighting.

They continually misjudged the situation, the condition of the airline, and let their personal feelings determince courses of action. What happened at Eastern is a perfect example of labor run amok.

To me, there were no scabs, no hero's, no goats, just a bunch of basically good people caught up in the moment not understanding anyone elses position. It was a business tradgedy.

 

[flight-crew]

To me, there were no scabs, no hero's, no goats, just a bunch of basically good people caught up in the moment not understanding anyone elses position. It was a business tradgedy.

That is a bold faced lie. There were plenty of SCABS who came off the street during the Eastern strike. When a pilot crosses an active picket line to work, that makes him/her a scab by definition.

 

[B-J-J Fighter]

Thanks

Thanks for your comments, this has turned into an interesting thread!