What has ALPA done for me lately?

[pipe]

I've received FAR more money from our ALPA-conceived Bond Distribution and the UAL share distribution we received post-bankruptcy than I will ever pay in dues my entire career.

I love it that some of the posters on this forum willingly applied to and accepted a job at an ALPA carrier and now complain about it. There are so many utopian non-union carrier to apply to at any given time, yet they choose an ALPA carrier to work at. Go figure.

Have you lost your mind?

Glenn Tilton was robbing your house. ALPA (the police) came in and caught him red-handed. They held a gun to his head and made him give you back the brass candlesticks before he left with everything else.

And you're satisfied with that? Enjoy your Stockholm Syndrome.

PIPE

 

[pipe]

If you really wanna know what ALPA can do for you, just ask about 1500 TWA pilots that are still furloughed directly because of ALPA.

Furloughs approaching seven years. Many will go to ten. Strong work ALPA.

In fact, these may set a record for the longest furloughs ever.

PIPE

 

[ualdriver]

Have you lost your mind?

Glenn Tilton was robbing your house. ALPA (the police) came in and caught him red-handed. They held a gun to his head and made him give you back the brass candlesticks before he left with everything else.

And you're satisfied with that? Enjoy your Stockholm Syndrome.

PIPE

I'm not happy about 2 things that transpired during the bankruptcy: 1) the paycuts and the loss of pensions and 2) the way our executive are paid.

Being the realist that I am and understanding what an organization like ALPA can and cannot do for me under the circumstances, the work that ALPA did to minimize my losses was very good. They negotiated a 550M bond settlement on behalf of the pilots that I would not have received had not ALPA floated the whole concept during our exit. Further, they came up with a mechanism such that the pilot group could choose to sell their stock to speculators before bankruptcy exit, and I ended up getting approximately 3 times the face value of the stock upon exit. Thirdly, representing the pilots on the creditor's committee, they were able to greatly reduce the "land grab" our executives tried to pull right before exit.

Those are 3 things I wouldn't have gotten had ALPA not represented my interests. You can call it what you want.

 

[ualdriver]

Wait a sec, your bond distribution metrics/methods weren't actually the epitome (sp) of perfection??

Define perfection? You mean there's a way to divide 550M dollars amoung 7000 pilots in a way where every pilot feels they received the appropriate amount?

 

[jke406]

Those are 3 things I wouldn't have gotten had ALPA not represented my interests. You can call it what you want.

Wait a minute, I thought the union was here to serve all 60,000 pilots, not just ualdriver or a small faction.

at least, that's what Rez keeps harping on.

 

[ualdriver]

Wait a minute, I thought the union was here to serve all 60,000 pilots, not just ualdriver or a small faction.

at least, that's what Rez keeps harping on.

OK, so ALPA national shouldn't waste their time with the Lost Retirement Savings Act or the Pilots Equitable treatment act because it only helps tens of thousands of ALPA pilots (right now, anyway) and not all 60,000 pilots directly? Are you saying the passage of that legislation might not help other ALPA pilots in the future who currently do have their pensions?

You stated this: From what I can see, National spends about as much time being concerned for the average pilot as they do about getting hit by a meteor (in other words, none).

..........and I give you two examples where thousands upon thousands of ALPA pilots who lost their pension might receive a TREMENDOUS benefit (worth thousands of dollars per year in may case and possible 10's of thousands of dollars for some other guys) if ALPA helps these guys out. And now you're criticizing ALPA because that doesn't help what your definition of the "average" pilot is?

 

[Flopgut]

Define perfection? You mean there's a way to divide 550M dollars amoung 7000 pilots in a way where every pilot feels they received the appropriate amount?

Yes. I do.

Hold on, maybe we aren't on the same page here...are you saying: it was perfectly screwed up? Because that I would agree with.

 

[ualdriver]

Yes. I do.

OK, let's hear it then! What distribution method divides a 550M bond among 7000 pilots in a way that all feel they received the appropriate amount. I can't wait for this......

 

[El Pobre]

There is no such thing as an ALPA airline....I googled it and it doesn't exist. ALPA doesn't move people from point A to point B, UAL does, AA does, CAL does etc....ALPA doesn't move boxes in the middle of the night in crappy weather, FEDEX does and so does UPS.

So get over this whole ALPA non-ALPA airline thing. If ALPA is so great...maybe national should start it's own airline...I'm takin' bets to see how long it would take to become bankrupt.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Wait a minute, I thought the union was here to serve all 60,000 pilots, not just ualdriver or a small faction.

at least, that's what Rez keeps harping on.

It is easy to talk tough when you don't have responsibility.....

The luxury of apathy, despair, pessimism and failure, brought to you by hard working volunteers: the harder you work for your fellow pilot the harder they kick you in the nuts...

 

[JoeMerchant]

It is easy to talk tough when you don't have responsibility.....

The luxury of apathy, despair, pessimism and failure, brought to you by hard working volunteers: the harder you work for your fellow pilot the harder they kick you in the nuts...

....that's right Rez....keep blaiming the people who PAY the bills.....that will endear them.....

"Apathy, despair, and failure".....sounds like Herndon...

 

[JoeMerchant]

Joe-

I'd disagree with your assessment that one requires "so little training" to become a pilot. In fact, I would say that it takes more training, on average, to become a commercial airline pilot than it does to become an accountant, a nurse, a computer guy (pick a field), etc., etc. Not only do are you basically required to obtain a 4 year degree like any other profession (yes, I realize you don't need a 4 year degree, but realistically it's required to maximize earnings potential), but you're required to spend 10's of thousands more on flight training.

Can you go to Florida for 11 months and go right into an operating room, a court room, or file a 1040 for a client? You can do that and go to the right seat of a 50-90 seat part 121 jet..... see any problem there?

The problem with this profession is that little kids and teenagers don't dream of becoming accountants some day. They dream of becoming pilots (among other things). Our profession, by any practical standard, is a "dream" profession. And because of that, young people are willing to sacrifice more (financially) to obtain the position and earn less while in the profession, then some guy who works as a bean counter in a cubicle in some multi-billion dollar company's mid-rise office complex in the near city suburbs. So pilots are willing to subsidze the costs (personal, financial) of the extra training required to become a pilot. And you're right- the result of the above?........TOO MANY pilots are (were?) willing to sacrifice themselves for the dream job and therefore there are (were?) too many pilots chasing too few jobs.

You're right about this being a "dream job"....It is, and I wouldn't trade it for any of the aforementioned professions.....That is why I am so protecting of the career I do have.....One that is constantly being attacked by fellow union members.....both regional and mainline.....

However, it is also true that the other professions require tougher entry requirements.....ALPA has never addressed that, and even now doesn't oppose MPL.....That is a mistake we are paying for today and will continue to pay for.....

What do you do about that? Should ALPA make everyone join the union as soon as they get their commercial pilot certificate or forever be excluded from any ALPA job? Then he just goes to JetBlue or Virgin. Would it be legally possible to control the supply of ATP's on the U.S. market? I don't know. If it was possible to restrict the number of pilots in the U.S., would it matter if you're not supporting ALPA's fight against cabotage? A scumbag like Ornstein could just find a nice Indonesian crew to fly a RJ for him, instead of choosing someone from ALPA's restricted pilot supply.

There are many things that could have been done, and can be done.

1. Was there ever a lobby effort to raise the 121 pilot requirements? We raised 135 requirements to 121 standards..... How different would things be if the 121 minimums were 1200 hours....

2. Pilot contracts could require a minimum pilot experience level....That isn't unheard of.....it has been done before....

Your points about whipsaw among RJ operators are heard and understood by me, but unfortunately I don't have the luxury of being a "one issue" or "two issue" person when it comes to our profession or the failings of ALPA. Out of all the things that concern me the most, cabotage/foreign ownership/flags of convenience rank up there. The only thing standing between me and those things is my not-so-perfection union (ALPA) and the not-so-perfect ALPA-PAC!

You have every right to make cabotage your main concern.....I have more immediate concerns....fellow ALPA members are bidding for my job....Maybe when that is settled I can worry about your issue.....If I don't deal with my issue, then your issue won't matter to me...... It's all about priorities......

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

did someone say something?

 

[JoeMerchant]

did someone say something?

...more than you just did....

 

[Andy]

I've received FAR more money from our ALPA-conceived Bond Distribution and the UAL share distribution we received post-bankruptcy than I will ever pay in dues my entire career.

I love it that some of the posters on this forum willingly applied to and accepted a job at an ALPA carrier and now complain about it. There are so many utopian non-union carrier to apply to at any given time, yet they choose an ALPA carrier to work at. Go figure.

I received $0 from the ALPA conceived Bond Distribution. Thanks UAL ALPA and thanks for doing the same to the retirees. And my stock distribution wasn't much more than the bond distribution. At least I got a stock distribution; the retirees got zero thanks to UAL ALPA.

And since when did the union representation of a carrier become THE single criteria for choosing where to work? Calling that argument dumb is an insult to dumb. Seriously.