What has ALPA done for me lately?

[PCL_128]

This very thread counters your argument here.....So ALPA can improve things even though the membership is apathetic......Why is it credit goes to ALPA for the victories, and blame goes to the membership for the losses......

ALPA is sometimes able to achieve victories in spite of the apathetic membership. Victories would be far more common if the membership would take ownership of their careers.

 

[JoeMerchant]

ALPA is sometimes able to achieve victories in spite of the apathetic membership. Victories would be far more common if the membership would take ownership of their careers.

ALPA cheerleader translation:

When ALPA achieves a victory it's because ALPA is a far superior organization that "achieves victories in spite of the apathetic membership"......

When ALPA loses, it all the fault of the "membership"...

Any wonder the boss (membership) is getting tired and more apathetic.....

 

[PCL_128]

I do disagree though that any POTUS really cares about pilots or labor in general. It is ironic that people distrust management but trust politicians. Think they are of the same cloth.

It's not a matter of trusting them; it's a matter of playing the political game. Big business buys their politicians, and labor/lawyers/etc... buy theirs. Guys like McCain and Guiliani have been bought by the people that oppose our interests. You have a choice of whether to vote for the people that have been bought off by the Air Transport Association, or people that have been bought by labor. My votes are going to the latter. Do I really think that Obama cares about me or anyone else in the labor movement? I really don't know. It's possible, but it really doesn't matter. What matters is that he'll support us because he counts on us for campaign contributions and votes to stay in power. It's just all part of playing the game.

 

[ualdriver]

Joe, the mainline pilots are just mad because now they're going to have to face the same competition and downward pressure of wage we have been facing for years here in the regionals. Poor babies.

They created this mess with ineffective exclusive scope. Now they reap the reward as Asian, Latin, and European pilots raid their hubs. If they had brought the industry together 10 years ago, when certain airlines filed a PID, we could be fighting a united front. But now, the industry is so fractured, nobody, especially ALPA, can put up any real resistance to the tidal wave of cheap airline labor approaching our shores. We are the next shipping industry and ALPA is fiddling while Rome burns.

I agree that the mainline guys created a mess with what is happening with the ALPA RJ operators right now.

I think comparing cabotage to the RJ whipsaw is apples and oranges. When worldwide pilot supply catches up with demand in the up and coming years, I'd be far more concerned about some third world pilot coming to the U.S. and flying as a 70 seat RJ Captain (for example) for 20K/year than Comair and ASA fighting over Delta flying. Or I'd be more concerned about an airline operating in the U.S. under some sort of "flag of convenience" (with all associated labor laws concerning that flag) then TransStates and Mesa fighting over a United contract.

Both issues certainly important and need to be addressed, but to imply that the mainline guys are "poor babies" just because we might have to face cabotage is way off base. Maybe you were kidding?

 

[MJ42]

I agree. He also has other baggage that the Dems and media will use against him - "the Keating Five" should he get the nod. Not that I'm a McCain fan but, do you really think people will care about an S&L scandal from the 1980's? Bet you could dig up more dirt on the Clintons then on McCain.

He created that POS legislation McCain-Feingold (sp?) which basically favors big business and lobbyists but screws the common person. Unfortunately this bad legislation will be used to show he can work across the aisle. Typical voters will see this as the moderate they want in office instead of a divider like "Hell"ary.
.

I'd rather see Obama then a dual Pres. Even though I disagree with just about everything he says, she(Bill included) is pure evil!

 

[John Pennekamp]

3. About five or six years ago, there actually was a bill being discussed on the Hill about modifying the RLA. The bill was called McCain-Lott. The basic idea of the bill was "baseball-style arbitration." In other words, the two parties would negotiate for a set period of time, and if they couldn't come to an agreement, both sides would submit their "last, best offer" to an arbitrator who would just pick one of the offers. The arbitrator's pick would be binding. This obviously would have been devastating to labor. The right to strike (our only leverage) would have been officially outlawed. Thanks to ALPA's hard work, we managed to kill this godforsaken bill. But Senator McCain is still in the Senate, and he's still holding on to this idea. If we start pushing for changes to the RLA, you can bet that he'll dredge up this monstrosity. With such slim Democratic majorities, he just might be able to push such a thing through. Better to wait until the pro-labor forces are larger on the Hill.

P.S. Any pilot who's thinking about voting for John McCain needs to have his head examined. This man is the most anti-pilot politician you could ever imagine.

And btw, McCain seems to have emerged as the Republican front runner. If he gets the nomination, I wonder how many airline pilots will vote Republican and shoot us all in the foot. I'll bet most. Airline pilots are stupid when it comes to politics. They vote with the heart, not the head or wallet. And certainly not the union card. You're wasting your time trying to convince them.

 

[John Pennekamp]

ALPA cheerleader translation:

When ALPA achieves a victory it's because ALPA is a far superior organization that "achieves victories in spite of the apathetic membership"......

When ALPA loses, it all the fault of the "membership"...

Any wonder the boss (membership) is getting tired and more apathetic.....

Joe, we're just stupid. All line pilots are. If we only saw the big picture like the ALPA reps do, then we'd understand. We should just trust them.

 

[John Pennekamp]

It's not a matter of trusting them; it's a matter of playing the political game. Big business buys their politicians, and labor/lawyers/etc... buy theirs. Guys like McCain and Guiliani have been bought by the people that oppose our interests. You have a choice of whether to vote for the people that have been bought off by the Air Transport Association, or people that have been bought by labor. My votes are going to the latter. Do I really think that Obama cares about me or anyone else in the labor movement? I really don't know. It's possible, but it really doesn't matter. What matters is that he'll support us because he counts on us for campaign contributions and votes to stay in power. It's just all part of playing the game.

And you don't think Obama has been bought? Hello, the BLACK LOBBY? Al Sharpton? Jesse Jackson? The man came to Atlanta on MLK day and said he would put a civil rights observer in every district to ensure "no black person gets harsher treatment than a white person". Translation: "we're gonna make the white man pay, just like we have all these years". Scary stuff. If Obama gets elected, we may be heading to a reverse apartheid. As a big fan of labor, I can't believe you aren't supporting Edwards. He is the true blue collar champion.

 

[JoeMerchant]

And btw, McCain seems to have emerged as the Republican front runner. If he gets the nomination, I wonder how many airline pilots will vote Republican and shoot us all in the foot. I'll bet most. Airline pilots are stupid when it comes to politics. They vote with the heart, not the head or wallet. And certainly not the union card. You're wasting your time trying to convince them.

Actually we do vote with our wallet.....The Dems. want to take more from our wallets than the Republicans do.....

According to the Dems, I am a "rich" person and my taxes need to go up....Sorry that's not good for my wallet.....

The harm to my wallet goes up if Hillary or Obama get in....

 

[John Pennekamp]

I agree that the mainline guys created a mess with what is happening with the ALPA RJ operators right now.

I think comparing cabotage to the RJ whipsaw is apples and oranges. When worldwide pilot supply catches up with demand in the up and coming years, I'd be far more concerned about some third world pilot coming to the U.S. and flying as a 70 seat RJ Captain (for example) for 20K/year than Comair and ASA fighting over Delta flying. Or I'd be more concerned about an airline operating in the U.S. under some sort of "flag of convenience" (with all associated labor laws concerning that flag) then TransStates and Mesa fighting over a United contract.

Both issues certainly important and need to be addressed, but to imply that the mainline guys are "poor babies" just because we might have to face cabotage is way off base. Maybe you were kidding?

I disagree. I think you're compartmentalizing the issue to make it seem like cabotage and "flags of convenience" is only a mainline problem. That's pretty arrogant. Your attitude of how our problems and fate are not tied together highlights the problem.

It's a problem for all of us, and if we don't stop this double standard of two ALPAs we are going to get steamrolled.

Oh, and did you "back the PAC" yet this year? Everyone needs to.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Obama's and his slum lord connections.....

http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/353829,CST-NWS-rez23.article

Edwards 28,200 sq ft house:
http://www.carolinajournal.com/exclusives/display_exclusive.html?id=3848

 

[PCL_128]

And btw, McCain seems to have emerged as the Republican front runner. If he gets the nomination, I wonder how many airline pilots will vote Republican and shoot us all in the foot. I'll bet most. Airline pilots are stupid when it comes to politics. They vote with the heart, not the head or wallet. And certainly not the union card. You're wasting your time trying to convince them.

I'm not so sure that it's a waste of time. As you know, I was one of those people for years. I finally came to my senses, largely because of conversations with Rez.

 

[John Pennekamp]

Actually we do vote with our wallet.....The Dems. want to take more from our wallets than the Republicans do.....

According to the Dems, I am a "rich" person and my taxes need to go up....Sorry that's not good for my wallet.....

The harm to my wallet goes up if Hillary or Obama get in....

You don't think McCain with his anti labor rhetoric and baseball arbitration will hurt your bottom line more than a Dem tax hike? Listen carefully: we will lose the right to strike. I know you're enjoying that 100+ hour line... do you think the company gave us those rigs just because they like us so much?

 

[PCL_128]

And you don't think Obama has been bought?

I think the entire point of my post was that every politician has been bought, including Obama. The difference lies in who has been doing the buying of each candidate. In general, Dems have been bought by the special interests that will help organized labor and the middle class, and the Reps have been bought by the big business lobby that opposes our interests.

Hello, the BLACK LOBBY? Al Sharpton? Jesse Jackson? The man came to Atlanta on MLK day and said he would put a civil rights observer in every district to ensure "no black person gets harsher treatment than a white person". Translation: "we're gonna make the white man pay, just like we have all these years". Scary stuff. If Obama gets elected, we may be heading to a reverse apartheid.

Wow, that's some deep paranoia! I think the appropriate translation would be "we're going to make sure that scumbags like Bill Clinton and Rudy Guiliani don't try to stop minorities from voting." Reverse apartheid? I don't think so.

As a big fan of labor, I can't believe you aren't supporting Edwards. He is the true blue collar champion.

I was a big fan of Edwards. I was hoping he would have the ability to pull it off this time, but it just didn't happen. People are too focused on this grand idea of getting the first woman or the first black president. The white guy didn't seem to be an option to too many Dems. Because of that, I've had to choose between Obama and the Hilldabeast. I hate the Clintons with every ounce of my being, so the choice was easy.

 

[John Pennekamp]

Obama's and his slum lord connections.....

http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/353829,CST-NWS-rez23.article

Edwards 28,200 sq ft house:
http://www.carolinajournal.com/exclusives/display_exclusive.html?id=3848

So what's your point, Joe? We know, you hate everybody.

How about bringing some constructive solutions to the table for once? Who are you supporting? Inquiring minds want to know? And if McCain is the GOP nominee, will you vote for him?

 

[PCL_128]

Actually we do vote with our wallet.....The Dems. want to take more from our wallets than the Republicans do.....

You know that McCain opposed the tax cuts, right? Twice, in fact. McCain is not a fiscal conservative. In fact, I can't seem to figure out what kind of conservative he is at all. The only thing he seems to be "conservative" about is his pure unadulterated hatred for labor, especially pilots.

According to the Dems, I am a "rich" person and my taxes need to go up....Sorry that's not good for my wallet.....

I somehow doubt that you're making over $250k flying your ATR around. You wouldn't fall into anyone's definition of "rich." The only pilots that would are the guys working at FedEx and UPS. Everyone else makes far less than proposed cutoffs for the "rich" after calculating all deductions.

The harm to my wallet goes up if Hillary or Obama get in....

If a Dem helps you get a 15% payraise due to increased bargaining power and a friendly NMB, and then raises your tax rate by 5%, how has your wallet been harmed? Some of you guys focus so intently on a couple of points in the tax rate that you forget how much your actual pay and benefits are suffering due to decreased bargaining leverage.

Besides, the Dems are not going to raise your taxes!!!

 

[John Pennekamp]

I think the entire point of my post was that every politician has been bought, including Obama. The difference lies in who has been doing the buying of each candidate. In general, Dems have been bought by the special interests that will help organized labor and the middle class, and the Reps have been bought by the big business lobby that opposes our interests. Wow, that's some deep paranoia! I think the appropriate translation would be "we're going to make sure that scumbags like Bill Clinton and Rudy Guiliani don't try to stop minorities from voting." Reverse apartheid? I don't think so. I was a big fan of Edwards. I was hoping he would have the ability to pull it off this time, but it just didn't happen. People are too focused on this grand idea of getting the first woman or the first black president. The white guy didn't seem to be an option to too many Dems. Because of that, I've had to choose between Obama and the Hilldabeast. I hate the Clintons with every ounce of my being, so the choice was easy.

The quote I gave you was referring to the Federal Court system, not Clinton or Guiliani and voting.

He's talking about rigging the court system to "level the playing field" in the name of "fairness". That's a pretty big chip on his shoulder to assume that Federal judges are giving blacks harsher sentences than whites. Kinda smacks of Jesse "the man is keeping me down" Jackson, don't you think? Or was he just pandering? Either way, I don't think THIS black man is the right choice for the first black president (that should have been Colin Powell, in my opinion, but I digress).

As for Edwards, it ain't over yet. Super Tuesday will decide the race, especially if Edwards does well today in SC, as he's expected to. I know you're a GA resident like me, and I hope you don't write Edwards off too quickly. GA will most certainly go for Obama with the black vote alone. Edwards needs all the help he can get if for nothing else just to knock Hillary off.

 

[PCL_128]

The quote I gave you was referring to the Federal Court system, not Clinton or Guiliani and voting.

Sorry, I hadn't seen that quote before, so I just assumed he was referring to voting precincts. You have a link to an article with the full story?

As for Edwards, it ain't over yet. Super Tuesday will decide the race, especially if Edwards does well today in SC, as he's expected to.

My concern is that Edwards is pulling more votes from Obama than from Hillary, but it's just not enough to win the nomination. In the end, he's going to act as an Obama spoiler and give the nomination to Hillary. Even if he does very well in SC today, I think anything more than strong 3rd place finishes in a vast majority of the Feb 5th states is wishful thinking.

 

[John Pennekamp]

Sorry, I hadn't seen that quote before, so I just assumed he was referring to voting precincts. You have a link to an article with the full story?

It was in a recap of his speech at Ebenezer Baptist on Channel 2 news in ATL Monday night. Go ahead and research it.

My concern is that Edwards is pulling more votes from Obama than from Hillary, but it's just not enough to win the nomination. In the end, he's going to act as an Obama spoiler and give the nomination to Hillary. Even if he does very well in SC today, I think anything more than strong 3rd place finishes in a vast majority of the Feb 5th states is wishful thinking.

I disagree. Obama is pulling the black vote. Most likely, Hillary and Edwards will split the white vote and Obama will slide in. This is what concerns me. Anybody who truly wants to knock Hillary out should be supporting Edwards. Then vote for Obama in the general election if you want to. He'll probably get the nomination if she is knocked out.

 

[PCL_128]

I disagree. Obama is pulling the black vote. Most likely, Hillary and Edwards will split the white vote and Obama will slide in. This is what concerns me. Anybody who truly wants to knock Hillary out should be supporting Edwards. Then vote for Obama in the general election if you want to. He'll probably get the nomination if she is knocked out.

Interesting theory. Haven't heard that one before. Guess I've got a few weeks to consider it. I'm off for Super Tuesday, so I'll be voting.