What did SAPA do about this?!

[USCtrojan]

I didn't come to Skywest for a quick upgrade. In fact my friends let me know that I would be in the next upgrade class at my former carrier. Secondly, Skywest pilots are not whores. The company/lease companies own those airplanes not the pilots. What is ALPA doing about those planes being transferred over to Skywest: NOTHING! The fact of the matter is that you are right, at some point in time it needs to stop. That is why I am for educating new people getting started day one in aviation. The new hires did their research. The only carriers that are really expanding and offering many bases and a promising career is Skywest, Republic, XJet. But, if we can teach them and educate them on how to act as a professional, what it means to stand together, and how to improve their futures we can have educated pilots day one. There is too much propaganda from both sides right now for any new hire to really understand what it means to vote in ALPA.

What is ALPA doing about those transfers? Are you kidding me? ASA just achieved Scope Language because of that. That's a milestone. SkyWest helped the decline of Air Wisconsin and their Denver Base. They had a great contract. Too good, because of your 70 seat flying, for 50 seat pay. That's supporting the "race to the bottom" and in fact being a whore. Not accusing you, I didn't see you celebrating. Now your brothers and sisters are trying to do something about that. Which many in this industry applaud. And you say we need to "educate" more. I agree, more education, more action is required.

Additionally, SkyWest already tried the "In House" Union. It failed. Don't know the reasons for that. I imagine, as well, that the fees associated with having your own Union would be quite high. Don't know what the figure would be, but I'd say at least quadruple what ALPA charges and for less representation.

Trojan

 

[Nevets]

Unfortunately, representation offered by ALPA really isn't representation at all. The RLA is outdated and companies have learned how to exploit their employees. The reason Skywest can not pay pilots properly, take away health benifits, and whatever else they please is because they can compete with the lowest of the low. Mesa pilots did agree to their contract but the ALPA National President at the time DW decided to sign it as well. The race to the bottom started with ALPA which is unfortunate. Unionized pilots at the regional level were sold out by those who were suppossedly representing them.

ALPA does offer great benefits which cost extra outside of dues. They greive everything and don't seem (nothing to back this with) to win many of them. They killed seniority at USAir and set a precedent that they can't even negotiate between two of their own pilot groups much less management.

Unions are definitely a must, but I think Skywest pilots would be much better off contacting airlines presently using in house unions.

If ALPA wants to get Skywest on the property they should start by taking care of those they already represent. I came from another ALPA 121 carrier and they did nothing for me while I was there. In fact they hurt me more than they helped me. They should also start educating private pilots on their way to becoming professional airline pilots.

Skywest doesn't pay their pilots "properly" because NOTHING stops their management from paying them whatever they think is the minimum they can get away with. I don't blame them either, as management, its their job to cut costs where ever they can. Its the union job to balance that. Look at Horizon and XJT, their contracts are pretty good and they are able to compete. Don't sell yourselves short.

This is one of the reasons why ALPA wants to organize Skywest. Other regional ALPA pilots get together for strategizing sessions in order to mitigate whipsawing. If Skywest were in the mix, it would vastly improve that effort.

As for Mesa, you have to remember they were dealing with the alter ego Freedom. They gave up A LOT of negotiating capitol to include alter ego airlines in their scope clause. So much negotiating capital that they didn't have nearly enough to take care of other areas of their contract. But at least you don't see Mesa and Freedom being whipsawed and bringing the profession down even more. That is why DW signed it. You can disagree with the reasoning but its a valid point. Again, this is partly why ALPA feels its important to bring Skywest into the tent, to mitigate whipsawing.

Why shouldn't ALPA grieve everything that is legitimately a contract violation. You are not insinuating that they will actually greive something that is per the contract. That doesn't make sense.

As for USAirways, ALPA national had NOTHING to do with that. When two ALPA carriers merge their seniority lists, its respective negotiating committees negotiate among THEMSELVES. ALPA national only provides the merger policy. The two pilot groups decide what method to use to integrate their seniority list They come to an agreement or they send it to BINDING arbitration. When USAirways sent their case to arbitration, the arbitrator later came back with the decision but told the East pilots they were NOT going to like it so he would give them another chance to negotiate among themselves. The East pilots didn't want any part of that so the arbitrator rendered his binding decision. So how did ALPA kill seniority. Its not ALPA national unable to negotiate, its the two pilot groups unable to negotiate.

This is a huge misconception. Remember, ALPA is actually an ASSOCIATION. Each airline is affiliated to ALPA but they are for all intents and purposes for seniority integration, their OWN union (that just happens to be associated with ALPA). It was America West and USAirways pilots who couldn't negotiate with themselves. ALPA national had nothing to do with that fact.

If Skywest called airlines with in house unions, ask them if they purchase any of ALPA's services or if they have ever recieved help from ALPA's services free of charge. Ask them if they ever meet with ALPA carriers for strategizing? And ask them why?

I'm sorry if you were "hurt" by ALPA at your other 121 carrier. But remember, each airline is independent on how they run their union. Its only as good as its volunteers. Personally, I feel that people should get more involved especially if they were "wronged" so that that doesn't happen to a fellow pilot.

I do agree with you that they should hit the flight schools though.

Fly safe

 

[Nevets]

I didn't come to Skywest for a quick upgrade. In fact my friends let me know that I would be in the next upgrade class at my former carrier. Secondly, Skywest pilots are not whores. The company/lease companies own those airplanes not the pilots. What is ALPA doing about those planes being transferred over to Skywest: NOTHING! The fact of the matter is that you are right, at some point in time it needs to stop. That is why I am for educating new people getting started day one in aviation. The new hires did their research. The only carriers that are really expanding and offering many bases and a promising career is Skywest, Republic, XJet. But, if we can teach them and educate them on how to act as a professional, what it means to stand together, and how to improve their futures we can have educated pilots day one. There is too much propaganda from both sides right now for any new hire to really understand what it means to vote in ALPA.

Good points but just one thing, ASA piltos have included scope language in their TA to minimize the number of aircraft being transferred. And the ones that do get transferred bring ASA pilots with them. Now, what prevents Skywest management from transferring your Skywest planes over to another carrier? ASA pilots were thoughtful enough to reciprocate with you if they transfer them to ASA. But what if they transfer them somewhere else? What is SAPA doing about that?

 

[Ski Bum]

passport reimbursement? ouch!!!! what is that like $100. every 10 years? have you ever used yours for other than work?

If you haven't been at SKYW very long then you don't know that passports were not originally a reqiurement for the job, nor was the FCC license. They recently became requirements and we were not reimbursed. It doesn't matter if you use your passport outside of work or not, not everyone had one and they were forced to get one on their own dime. It sounds like a small complaint, but it is the small things that add up.

We used to not get paid for training, then we did, then we didn't, now we do again. We used have single occupancy hotel rooms, now we have double occupancy (new hire training only). We used to have to pay for our new hire uniforms, now we don't. We used to have to buy our Jepps and binders, now????? The point is that Skywest changes their requirements and what they do and do not pay for all the time. We need reimbursements and expenses in a legally binding contract.

Union contracts often include reimbursements for

Medicals (SKYW does not)
Dry Cleaning (SKYW does not)
Passports (SKYW does not)

Now consider that adds up to a few hundred extra dollars a year and consider the fact that my benefits this year cost a few hundred dollars more than last year. Every little bit counts. And it was those little bits in addition to the larger issues that the Contract Study Committee addressed unlike SAPA.

 

[SkyNation]

Union contracts often include reimbursements for

Medicals (SKYW does not)
Dry Cleaning (SKYW does not)
Passports (SKYW does not)

Now consider that adds up to a few hundred extra dollars a year and consider the fact that my benefits this year cost a few hundred dollars more than last year.

my medical-$60 bucks
Dry Cleaning-I wash my uniform at home
Passport-had one when I got here, but when it expires it costs $100 bucks for a new one

say I get a new passport every ten years.

tens years of medicals + passport renewal=$1300
tens years of ALPA dues=@$20,000

working at a place I enjoy, make more than my counterparts at other regionals and not having to deal with the inherent adversarial relationship of a Union=

PRICELESS
​

 

[Skywest Pylot]

tens years of medicals + passport renewal=$1300
tens years of ALPA dues=@$20,000

Having a legally enforceable contract=Priceless

 

[skyhogg]

Additionally, SkyWest already tried the "In House" Union. It failed. Don't know the reasons for that.
Trojan

It failed in large part due to the tireless campaign by SAPA and management to paint an "in house" as ineffective. The rhetoric was something along the lines that an in house union would take years to build up the funds to be effective and the fees would be too high.

Ironically, many of the same guys (read usual suspects) that bashed the idea of an in house during the UPA drive are now saying that they would be open to the idea...as long as it's not ALPA.

Keep them confused and divided...

 

[Ski Bum]

my medical-$60 bucks
Dry Cleaning-I wash my uniform at home
Passport-had one when I got here, but when it expires it costs $100 bucks for a new one

say I get a new passport every ten years.

tens years of medicals + passport renewal=$1300
tens years of ALPA dues=@$20,000

working at a place I enjoy, make more than my counterparts at other regionals and not having to deal with the inherent adversarial relationship of a Union=

PRICELESS​

Gotta give you credit on this one, it made me laugh.

In my experience with ALPA carriers with whom I have worked, for the money that I have paid ALPA, I have received more back in DIRECT fiscal reward (raises, reimbursements, grievances) than I have ever paid in dues. And that doesn't include QOL or added legal and medical protections.

To me, that isn't priceless, that is a sound business investment.

 

[Nevets]

my medical-$60 bucks
Dry Cleaning-I wash my uniform at home
Passport-had one when I got here, but when it expires it costs $100 bucks for a new one

say I get a new passport every ten years.

tens years of medicals + passport renewal=$1300
tens years of ALPA dues=@$20,000

working at a place I enjoy, make more than my counterparts at other regionals and not having to deal with the inherent adversarial relationship of a Union=

PRICELESS
​

SkyNation,

You are missing the point entirely. The point is that you have an enforceable contract so that they can't just change these things on a whim without having the okay from pilots.

But my original question, what did SAPA do about these things? Can you answer that?

 

[SkyNation]

Nevets

you're a smart guy, but since you're new here I'm assuming you haven't been able to read through all the crap on this forum. this is not a new debate, and I've been clear.

just because I don't want ALPA here doesn't mean that I'm automatically a fan of SAPA. I'm not. Whatever the structure is, as long as it delivers me a QOL, pay, and overall company health that I believe is equal to or better than what I see my friends and counterparts getting at other regionals, then I am happy and will go with what delivers those results.

signed,
Former ALPA member

 

[Nevets]

Nevets

you're a smart guy, but since you're new here I'm assuming you haven't been able to read through all the crap on this forum. this is not a new debate, and I've been clear.

just because I don't want ALPA here doesn't mean that I'm automatically a fan of SAPA. I'm not. Whatever the structure is, as long as it delivers me a QOL, pay, and overall company health that I believe is equal to or better than what I see my friends and counterparts getting at other regionals, then I am happy and will go with what delivers those results.

signed,
Former ALPA member

Can you at least humor me and answer my question of what did SAPA do about these things? Since you are not a supporter of SAPA, you surely have some opinions on it.

As for your current state, like I've said before on other threads, it can be a whole of alot better. Don't sell yourself short, you may be doing good compared to your counterparts, but it can be much much better! Why would you not want that?

 

[SkyNation]

As for your current state, like I've said before on other threads, it can be a whole of alot better. Don't sell yourself short, you may be doing good compared to your counterparts, but it can be much much better! Why would you not want that?

how do you know? that is purely speculation, and a best case scenario.

truth is, the majority here don't want to be the next AWAC. I'm sure you've see this: http://www.doihaveafuturehere.org/

 

[Nevets]

how do you know? that is purely speculation, and a best case scenario.

truth is, the majority here don't want to be the next AWAC. I'm sure you've see this: http://www.doihaveafuturehere.org/

I know that SAPA has absolutely no ability to make it better. They have no leverage. If the ALPA drive is successful, you automatically go into negotiations. You at least get all the things that ASA got. And if nothing changes other than getting an enforceable contract, you would be 100 times better off.

The truth is the majority at Skywest don't want the management at AWAC to be the management at Skywest. Nothing is stopping that. If AWAC management were at Skywest, you guys would be hurting alot more than AWAC currently is because they have an ENFORCEABLE contract.

What is it you don't understand about having an enforceable contract?

I take it you are not going to humor me and answer my question of what did SAPA do about these things?

 

[UncleRico]

Too many what ifs on this board. The fact of the matter is that everyone has a point of view and may make their decision based on their experiences and information that they have received. SAPA doesn't do much but 2 1/2 years of ALPA dues didn't get me anything either.

 

[SkyNation]

The fact of the matter is that everyone has a point of view and may make their decision based on their experiences and information that they have received.

true. in fact, according to the OC, the biggest stumbling block they have is pilots who have come from ALPA regionals, and based on their experiences do not want it here.

 

[Nevets]

true. in fact, according to the OC, the biggest stumbling block they have is pilots who have come from ALPA regionals, and based on their experiences do not want it here.

What many of those pilots don't understand is how much worse it would be if ALPA wasn't there. Think about this, how would it be at Skywest if Jonathan Ornstein was running the show? Really, think about that. He would have NO constraints on what he could do to your wages, conditions of employment, benefits, etc.

ALPA is not perfect and there is nothing they can do about business plans or business decisions. But they have a lot more to offer than any Skywest pilots have right now. An enforceable contract for starters.

My personal experience is that its the new guys that the OC needs to inform the most. Most of them are just happy to have a job other than flight instructing and the SJS hasn't worn off YET.

 

[Nevets]

Too many what ifs on this board. The fact of the matter is that everyone has a point of view and may make their decision based on their experiences and information that they have received. SAPA doesn't do much but 2 1/2 years of ALPA dues didn't get me anything either.

What IF Jonathon Ornstein (Mesa CEO) ran the show here?

 

[UncleRico]

Like I said too many what ifs. JO is not running the show.

 

[Bluto]

Well, don't think of it as a what-if, think of it as leaving yourself an out. Yes, it's possible to talk yourself out of anything by thinking through all the potential downsides, but as aviation professionals, we should always be carefully monitoring our current situation and paying particular attention to trends so we can solve problems before they become serious. Many of us chose to support ALPA at SkyWest because we have seen a trend and want to stop it before we are in a bad position.

If you are concerned about the speculation and just want things to stay the same, well, I got news for ya, things have changed pretty dramatically under SAPA, you can expect that to continue.

 

[yellowfever]

how do you know? that is purely speculation, and a best case scenario.

truth is, the majority here don't want to be the next AWAC. I'm sure you've see this: http://www.doihaveafuturehere.org/

Are you saying that you don't know if it could be better there? Are you serious?