What are the RJ rumors at ALG and PDT

[blzr]

Both of you guys have valid pionts. Dakota is on the right track, the W/O get paid by rout segments just like the contracts. I don't think the cost of operating a dash is nearly equal to that of an erj, but as I have never blasted off in a jet, I am only guessing.

A major reason we are all in this situation is because MAINLINE believed that getting any RJ's at the w/O would take away their jobs, so they all voted to scope us out of anything but Turbo props, and at the same time voted in PARITY + 1% with all the other airlines. Don't even get me started on that one..

The reason the RJ's were going in large #s to the contracts, and why alpa is Rogering all of us with th big ugly known as J4J, or loa-86 was to get their pilots back on the job quickly until midatlantic started.. as it turned out, the contractors didn't require a minimum time requirement (one year after training, the w/o i think require at least one year in seat before they could go back to mainline or midatlantic.). That, I believe is to make up training costs..

Now, no one really knows what's going to happen. GE Capital is ready, or has promised $340 million for rJ leases with the stipulation that they are w/o and not contract. take that for what it's worth, but sounds like they'll be at the W/O sooner ar later.

There'll be plenty of flying for everyone, and Mainline will have to give up on the scope crap in order to maximize feed, if they don't, all this is moot anyway... But what do I know

 

[LearLove]

adf1856,

for someone who started class at chit on nov 7, 2002 and most likely no other industry experience and less than atp mins you sure know alot. Or is it think you know alot.

 

[dakotaHC8]

Ahhhhh, I got cha ADF, Sorry I was being so dense as to not be able to see things your way. I have to admit, Im still kinda fuzzy on a few things though...

You said places like CHQ and Mesa are cheaper than the wholly owneds nowadays eh...?

Hmmmm, it seems strange than that Mesa's pilots were only able to come up with a new contract T/A that could be best described as "neutral", probabaly better described as "concessionary". Why not strive for greater improvements, what could be holding them back...? Do you think that the Mesa pilots just feel unworthy of better pay and work rules ADF, or do they find themselves unable to do so because then THEY would cost more, hmmmmm I wonder. Say, how have negotiations been going over at CHQ,,,?

And then you have these silly alter ego affairs. I know that everyone says that it is "just" to get around the scope/JFJ restrictions. But I bet you know better ADF. im betting that you and I both agree that the main reason was to hedge against the primary pilot group at Wexford or Mesa Group asserting too much leverage and thus driving overhead beyond what it cost the majors to fly RJ's themselves. You know like I do ADF, that this sort of thing has already been happening at CHQ, right? CHQ turboprop flying was completely transferred over to the less expensive Shuttle America, no? Hmmm, maybey you guys are not as cheap as you thought you were afterall.

I am curious though ADF, you made it sound like fixed cost at CHQ or TSA or Mesa were so much cheaper than the wholly owneds. I'd love alittle clarification on that point. Im pretty sure that you didnt mean the your hangers or offices were less expensive. US Airway will be able to purhase/lease jets as cheap if not cheaper than any of the affiliates. What could you have been talking about ADF, help us understand.

I mean, even variable costs such as fuel, deicing, catering cannot be much different. I guess you might think that training/route qual/documentation will cost us a far bit, but didnt it cost you just as much as well? Just because you spent a buck last year and I have to spend one ths year doesnt make either of us a buck richer, eh?

Im just lost man, try as I might I just cannot come around to your way of thnking. You know, there's a good chance that you are just plain wrong ADF. I hate to break it to you.

Well I guess that time will tell what will really happen as US Airways (that means us too) comes out of bankruptcy and secures all of that financing. It was sure nice of the various outside "airlines" to provide immediate relief for what Airways needed. We appreciate your help but it is more profitable to do it ourselves in the long run. Just like my example of buying a house is smarter than wasting your rent on apartments forever. US Airays obviously needed a "roof over its head", per se, and had to resort to "renting" RJ's. The portion of future RJ's that have been allocated to the outside "airlines" will cover things in the short term. But the new managment of US Airways is too smart to funnel any more profits to outside "airlines" than they have to. The clear majority of future small jet growth will remain in house (that means us).

>>>I really do hope I am wrong and he wholly owns will be able to spread the wealth with the RJ's.<<<

I dont, ALG, PDT, PSA, or Midatlantic ----> I dont care, as long as it stays in the family.. I loathe the idea of outside "airlines" getting one more USX jet than necessary, because it is big reason Airways is in bankruptcy (while Mesa Group, TSA, and Wexford are profitable). Sorry to be cold, but YOU are the competition to us, not Comair or Eagle (hey, those guys dislike CHQ also... heh, thats funny). If I have to accept pinnacle/NW airlink wage rates and share my cockpit with mainline furloughees to outcompete all of the outsiders that have been undercutting us for years... Then thats what I have to do.

If you think that your gravy train of leeching off our flying will not slow to a crawl in a few years, then I do think YOUR desperation is clouding YOUR judgement of the future ADF. Ask yourself this, when US Airways recovers and eventully starts to hire again only through the wholly owneds, will you then understand the magnitude of change....?

 

[dondk]

If I have to accept pinnacle/NW airlink wage rates and share my cockpit with mainline furloughees to outcompete all of the outsiders that have been undercutting us for years... Then thats what I have to do.
[/B]

While I am a former MESA and Former WO guy... I do not quite get the whole wage rate statement...
While we may not make as much as (2 of the 3) WO's (before concessions), we do make more than Mesa and some of the USX contract carriers. Equally, we are showing positive growth for the next 2-3 years, add to that upgrades that were as short as 8 months or less and is now about 18 months. Still significantly better than the WO's and some of the contract carriers ever were and may ever be.

Lines and days off... They are not the greatest, but are still better than most USX contract carriers and some of the WO's. While they vary month to month, a person with 2 years yields at least 16+ days off, fairly commutable and anywhere between guarantee to 85+ hours. Again, not near what I remember from my WO day but much better than the equal at a USX carrier.

Now only if we could get NWA to stop the whipsawing all of us.

 

[blzr]

The bar has forever been lowered. Management has seen that they can manipulate us by the purse strings and if we don't want to play ball, they have many contractors out there willing to fly the routs.

I really do believe that an f/o is worth more $30,000. No one should be in the right seat for less than that. But.... There are those who'll do it for less than $18,000 and it has killed the industry for all of us.

Anyone that thinks this job isn't serious, or that we don't DESERVE to be paid like professionals, think about the consequences of a bad day here. Does the CEO, or CFO have shootdown procedures in their employee manual?I don't think so... Do they face the same consequences we do if mtx screws up, I.E. the Airmidwest flight in CLT... I don't think so...

Just a thought, I mean absolutely no disrespect to Captain Leslie and her F/O.

 

[WileE]

I don't think pay is the issue.

It doesn't matter all that much how much the guys up front are getting paid. Really if you break it down by the hour, it doesn't make all that much difference when you compare the cost of the crew making 80 bucks per hour versus 100 bucks when you are burning ten times that much in fuel over the same period.

I think right now, the reason that some of the contract carriers are going to be getting RJ's before the WO's is that they have the ability to finance them RIGHT NOW, not in a year or two if and when the whole bankrupcy thing is settled. For example Mesa already has 59 jets fully financed that will hit the flight line in the next six months (the first deliveries start next week). As soon as the contract is signed, it will get the financing to buy a hell of a lot more. It also has the capital right now to train all the new pilots required. They are already buying all the available sim time in the country for the next year and are negotiating sim time in other countries, including Canada, Germany and Brazil to handle the overflow.

That is why US Air is talking about more than 400 new jets at Mesa in the next 4 years, because Mesa can do it. Then, in 4 years when Mesa is in position to buy out US Air and America West, that's when the pilots will have the leverage to get the compensation they deserve. But that all depends on Mesa pilots signing the contract and killing Freedom and any future possibility of Johnny O ever pulling that kind of whipsaw tactic ever again.

 

[Beantown]

Posted by BLZR "There are those who'll do it for less than $18,000 and it has killed the industry for all of us."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

When you were a first year FO at ALG or PDT, How much did you make? My guess is that you were once one of the guys that are killing the industry. Your post is a joke. -Bean

ps, One of the main reasons you buy a house is b/c it will normally appreciate over time. Airplanes like cars don't. That analogy doesn't hold water. Nice try though.

 

[blzr]

Couple of things, three years ago I was a new hire at PDT. Our first six months pay was $23.50 and second six was $24.70/hr. After the first year i think it was 26 or 27/hr. There ya have it. I had a chance to go to Mesa, but after talking to ome of my fellow Freight dogs, decided that I could make more money flight instructing or flying freight. Could have gone to Comair, but they were still PAY for Training.. Not a chance..

Ok, Next.... That is absolutely obsurde to think that Mesa will purchase not only one large airline, but TWO?? Reach behind you and put on that O2 mask and take a few deep breaths. Nice try, but That is never going to happen.. really didn't need addressing

back to the pay issue, How many of your captains made 40,000 last year? how many of your f/o's came close to that? I bet none unless you are selling AmWay on the side...

Ok... Anybody heard anything useful reguarding the W/O?

 

[Beantown]

Couple of things, three years ago I was a new hire at PDT. Our first six months pay was $23.50 and second six was $24.70/hr. After the first year i think it was 26 or 27/hr. There ya have it. I had a chance to go to Mesa, but after talking to ome of my fellow Freight dogs, decided that I could make more money flight instructing or flying freight.

Thats the problem with flight instructors and fright dogs. You are only looking at year one or two when you should be looking at the long run. If you had gone to Mesa three years ago, you would be a Jet Capt. instead of a Dash Fo. A third yr Jet Capt at Mesa makes around $55 an hr. What are you making right now as a Dash FO?

How many of your captains made 40,000 last year? how many of your f/o's came close to that?

All the Capt that are not on the 1900 make over $40,000. The only reason you have FO's coming close is that the upgrade time is so long that you have very senior guys at FO. Not a issue at Mesa.

 

[blzr]

Now, hang on there skippy... I did look at the future.... thinking that the regionals were a stepping stone to a major.. looks like it is the other way around.

Sure, I looked t the first year pay, and upgrade time and PDT had what I was looking for. The ability to upgrade in a reasonable amout of time and not starve to death in the process.

Work rules were a big issue. Is it true that you guys could get stuck in a hold and be, like .5 or.7 over block and not get paid for it? can you guys go to the airport and sit all day with a broken airplane and only make per diem? That is so not right.
If your line id blocked for , say 85 hrs, are you guaranteed those hrs, or can you make less? For Feb, I have 102hrs CREDIT.. that's what I get paid, +perdiem, and any overages..So, pay is somewhat the issue, but work rules is where you make money.

I know alot of people are STILL saying that the regionals are just a stepping stone... but to where?