Welcome to Flightinfo.com
- Register now and join the discussion
- Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
- Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
- Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
- Share the passion for aviation
- Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun
What are the RJ rumors at ALG and PDT
- Thread starter spike
- Start date
Welcome to Flightinfo.com
- Register now and join the discussion
- Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
- Invite your friends
- Share the passion of aviation
- Friendliest aviation community on the web
blzr
Well-known member
- Joined
- Sep 6, 2002
- Posts
- 1,502
"Will the mainline pilots really make captains pay no matter what seat they occupy? or is that up to the judge?"
-----------------------------------
A friend of mine who is a furloughed mainline pilots told me that the union gave that up on the latest round of give backs. He said that he was told by (ALPA) that if he goes to a regional under J4J he will get paid what ever that regional pays for his position. I have not heard this anywhere else so take it for what it is. Anyone else?
-Bean
-----------------------------------
A friend of mine who is a furloughed mainline pilots told me that the union gave that up on the latest round of give backs. He said that he was told by (ALPA) that if he goes to a regional under J4J he will get paid what ever that regional pays for his position. I have not heard this anywhere else so take it for what it is. Anyone else?
-Bean
79%N1
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 19, 2002
- Posts
- 2,441
Werent you PSA guys assured through your "high up" sources that you would be getting 2 RJ's a month starting last OCT?????
Take those rumors with a grain of salt. USAIR is in NO POSITION to start buying RJ's for anybody! If so, where is Midatlantic. Look for Mesa and Chat. to get the growth...
Take those rumors with a grain of salt. USAIR is in NO POSITION to start buying RJ's for anybody! If so, where is Midatlantic. Look for Mesa and Chat. to get the growth...
CHQ Pilot
Well-known member
- Joined
- Apr 11, 2002
- Posts
- 151
climbhappy
ex pat
- Joined
- Aug 11, 2002
- Posts
- 2,159
us airways rjs
remember that midway airlines in back business with two jets currently operating, one for piedmont and one back up.
they had a class of 18 mainline guys start in late jan. they're suppose to( according to the midway poi) who I spoke to, at least two a month till the end of the year.
for putting up 7 milion in lease deposits for midway, us airways mainline has an equity position in midway already , (don't know the %) and this could have an impact on what your discussing.
remember that midway airlines in back business with two jets currently operating, one for piedmont and one back up.
they had a class of 18 mainline guys start in late jan. they're suppose to( according to the midway poi) who I spoke to, at least two a month till the end of the year.
for putting up 7 milion in lease deposits for midway, us airways mainline has an equity position in midway already , (don't know the %) and this could have an impact on what your discussing.
DASHDRIVER
Uber User
- Joined
- Dec 9, 2001
- Posts
- 265
PDT Stand
This is what I know about Piedmont. Currently, training has prepared the RJ training program. Aparently from the day of go ahead we can be up and operational in 45 days. Even after the closing of JAX Pilot base and MX facility, the leses on those buildings have been extended for another year. There are also no schedualed down size of the -8 fleet till at least the end of the year.
The Rumors:
1. MX guyz in JAX have been ordered low profile tool boxes (possibly to fit under low wing aircraft).
2. Whispers around about upgrades, recalls and possible hiring by the end of March. (whether because of atrition or expansion, who knows)
3. ALPA cannot allow any WO pilot to hit the street in order to employ a Mainline guy. Too much liability.
I don't know hoe much to believe. It has seemed to stabilize around here. Maybe there will be good news in March. But then again maybe our FA's and MX guys will turn doewn thier TA and we will be disolved.
Regards, DD
This is what I know about Piedmont. Currently, training has prepared the RJ training program. Aparently from the day of go ahead we can be up and operational in 45 days. Even after the closing of JAX Pilot base and MX facility, the leses on those buildings have been extended for another year. There are also no schedualed down size of the -8 fleet till at least the end of the year.
The Rumors:
1. MX guyz in JAX have been ordered low profile tool boxes (possibly to fit under low wing aircraft).
2. Whispers around about upgrades, recalls and possible hiring by the end of March. (whether because of atrition or expansion, who knows)
3. ALPA cannot allow any WO pilot to hit the street in order to employ a Mainline guy. Too much liability.
I don't know hoe much to believe. It has seemed to stabilize around here. Maybe there will be good news in March. But then again maybe our FA's and MX guys will turn doewn thier TA and we will be disolved.
Regards, DD
blzr
Well-known member
- Joined
- Sep 6, 2002
- Posts
- 1,502
Here at Piedmont, we are redoing our checklists and procedures, and they are remarkably similar to Mainline. Also, our f/a's have gone to the mainline style announcements. Maybe our training department is just trying to stay buisy, but I really don't think so.
Midway just started a new class last week. A member of MidAtlantic management expressed some concern because, it seems, that they had to go through nearly 25% or 400 pilots on the furlough list to get enough to have a class. This may show lack of enthusiasm among furloughed pilots to return to the great moneypit that was Airways.
I do think the contract carriers will get more RJ's. But take a look at where Seigal came from.(no, not Hertz) Continental. They upgraded Contenental express, and reduced their dependence on contractors to have more control over their feed. They seem to be doing ok, and it does seem like that is where airways is heading..
....The only reason I am optimistic is because I have never been right before, and I am due for a break....
Midway just started a new class last week. A member of MidAtlantic management expressed some concern because, it seems, that they had to go through nearly 25% or 400 pilots on the furlough list to get enough to have a class. This may show lack of enthusiasm among furloughed pilots to return to the great moneypit that was Airways.
I do think the contract carriers will get more RJ's. But take a look at where Seigal came from.(no, not Hertz) Continental. They upgraded Contenental express, and reduced their dependence on contractors to have more control over their feed. They seem to be doing ok, and it does seem like that is where airways is heading..
....The only reason I am optimistic is because I have never been right before, and I am due for a break....
>>>There is NO FINANCIALLY SMART reason to buy RJ's for an expensive wholly owned group when TSA, CHQ, MESA, Midway & Republic can do it cheaper and at NO COST to US Air.<<<
You are so right my man, except for the fact that the wholly owneds now have cheaper jet rates than all of the carriers you just mentioned due to the stiff concessions we just gave.
But you are on the money when you pointed out that it costs Airways nothing to have outside companies fly RJ's. It's just like the stupidity of buying a house, when you can rent apartments at NO COST to yourself ---> silly homeowners... I cannot believe that the wholly owneds think they will get RJ's when TSA, CHQ, MESA, Midway & Republic will fly 'em for free. Errr, wait a sec, that cannot be right buddy. Oooops, I think we messed up, it appears that the fixed costs are the same between a subsidiary and a contracted carrier.
Oh gee, I guess you really dont know what you are talking about, I feel foolish for having listened to you. Dont cha worry abou others getting jets and just stick to your own deal bro
Cya
You are so right my man, except for the fact that the wholly owneds now have cheaper jet rates than all of the carriers you just mentioned due to the stiff concessions we just gave.
But you are on the money when you pointed out that it costs Airways nothing to have outside companies fly RJ's. It's just like the stupidity of buying a house, when you can rent apartments at NO COST to yourself ---> silly homeowners... I cannot believe that the wholly owneds think they will get RJ's when TSA, CHQ, MESA, Midway & Republic will fly 'em for free. Errr, wait a sec, that cannot be right buddy. Oooops, I think we messed up, it appears that the fixed costs are the same between a subsidiary and a contracted carrier.
Oh gee, I guess you really dont know what you are talking about, I feel foolish for having listened to you. Dont cha worry abou others getting jets and just stick to your own deal bro
Cya
blzr
Well-known member
- Joined
- Sep 6, 2002
- Posts
- 1,502
Both of you guys have valid pionts. Dakota is on the right track, the W/O get paid by rout segments just like the contracts. I don't think the cost of operating a dash is nearly equal to that of an erj, but as I have never blasted off in a jet, I am only guessing.
A major reason we are all in this situation is because MAINLINE believed that getting any RJ's at the w/O would take away their jobs, so they all voted to scope us out of anything but Turbo props, and at the same time voted in PARITY + 1% with all the other airlines. Don't even get me started on that one..
The reason the RJ's were going in large #s to the contracts, and why alpa is Rogering all of us with th big ugly known as J4J, or loa-86 was to get their pilots back on the job quickly until midatlantic started.. as it turned out, the contractors didn't require a minimum time requirement (one year after training, the w/o i think require at least one year in seat before they could go back to mainline or midatlantic.). That, I believe is to make up training costs..
Now, no one really knows what's going to happen. GE Capital is ready, or has promised $340 million for rJ leases with the stipulation that they are w/o and not contract. take that for what it's worth, but sounds like they'll be at the W/O sooner ar later.
There'll be plenty of flying for everyone, and Mainline will have to give up on the scope crap in order to maximize feed, if they don't, all this is moot anyway... But what do I know
A major reason we are all in this situation is because MAINLINE believed that getting any RJ's at the w/O would take away their jobs, so they all voted to scope us out of anything but Turbo props, and at the same time voted in PARITY + 1% with all the other airlines. Don't even get me started on that one..
The reason the RJ's were going in large #s to the contracts, and why alpa is Rogering all of us with th big ugly known as J4J, or loa-86 was to get their pilots back on the job quickly until midatlantic started.. as it turned out, the contractors didn't require a minimum time requirement (one year after training, the w/o i think require at least one year in seat before they could go back to mainline or midatlantic.). That, I believe is to make up training costs..
Now, no one really knows what's going to happen. GE Capital is ready, or has promised $340 million for rJ leases with the stipulation that they are w/o and not contract. take that for what it's worth, but sounds like they'll be at the W/O sooner ar later.
There'll be plenty of flying for everyone, and Mainline will have to give up on the scope crap in order to maximize feed, if they don't, all this is moot anyway... But what do I know
Ahhhhh, I got cha ADF, Sorry I was being so dense as to not be able to see things your way. I have to admit, Im still kinda fuzzy on a few things though...
You said places like CHQ and Mesa are cheaper than the wholly owneds nowadays eh...?
Hmmmm, it seems strange than that Mesa's pilots were only able to come up with a new contract T/A that could be best described as "neutral", probabaly better described as "concessionary". Why not strive for greater improvements, what could be holding them back...? Do you think that the Mesa pilots just feel unworthy of better pay and work rules ADF, or do they find themselves unable to do so because then THEY would cost more, hmmmmm I wonder. Say, how have negotiations been going over at CHQ,,,?
And then you have these silly alter ego affairs. I know that everyone says that it is "just" to get around the scope/JFJ restrictions. But I bet you know better ADF. im betting that you and I both agree that the main reason was to hedge against the primary pilot group at Wexford or Mesa Group asserting too much leverage and thus driving overhead beyond what it cost the majors to fly RJ's themselves. You know like I do ADF, that this sort of thing has already been happening at CHQ, right? CHQ turboprop flying was completely transferred over to the less expensive Shuttle America, no? Hmmm, maybey you guys are not as cheap as you thought you were afterall.
I am curious though ADF, you made it sound like fixed cost at CHQ or TSA or Mesa were so much cheaper than the wholly owneds. I'd love alittle clarification on that point. Im pretty sure that you didnt mean the your hangers or offices were less expensive. US Airway will be able to purhase/lease jets as cheap if not cheaper than any of the affiliates. What could you have been talking about ADF, help us understand.
I mean, even variable costs such as fuel, deicing, catering cannot be much different. I guess you might think that training/route qual/documentation will cost us a far bit, but didnt it cost you just as much as well? Just because you spent a buck last year and I have to spend one ths year doesnt make either of us a buck richer, eh?
Im just lost man, try as I might I just cannot come around to your way of thnking. You know, there's a good chance that you are just plain wrong ADF. I hate to break it to you.
Well I guess that time will tell what will really happen as US Airways (that means us too) comes out of bankruptcy and secures all of that financing. It was sure nice of the various outside "airlines" to provide immediate relief for what Airways needed. We appreciate your help but it is more profitable to do it ourselves in the long run. Just like my example of buying a house is smarter than wasting your rent on apartments forever. US Airays obviously needed a "roof over its head", per se, and had to resort to "renting" RJ's. The portion of future RJ's that have been allocated to the outside "airlines" will cover things in the short term. But the new managment of US Airways is too smart to funnel any more profits to outside "airlines" than they have to. The clear majority of future small jet growth will remain in house (that means us).
>>>I really do hope I am wrong and he wholly owns will be able to spread the wealth with the RJ's.<<<
I dont, ALG, PDT, PSA, or Midatlantic ----> I dont care, as long as it stays in the family.. I loathe the idea of outside "airlines" getting one more USX jet than necessary, because it is big reason Airways is in bankruptcy (while Mesa Group, TSA, and Wexford are profitable). Sorry to be cold, but YOU are the competition to us, not Comair or Eagle (hey, those guys dislike CHQ also... heh, thats funny). If I have to accept pinnacle/NW airlink wage rates and share my cockpit with mainline furloughees to outcompete all of the outsiders that have been undercutting us for years... Then thats what I have to do.
If you think that your gravy train of leeching off our flying will not slow to a crawl in a few years, then I do think YOUR desperation is clouding YOUR judgement of the future ADF. Ask yourself this, when US Airways recovers and eventully starts to hire again only through the wholly owneds, will you then understand the magnitude of change....?
You said places like CHQ and Mesa are cheaper than the wholly owneds nowadays eh...?
Hmmmm, it seems strange than that Mesa's pilots were only able to come up with a new contract T/A that could be best described as "neutral", probabaly better described as "concessionary". Why not strive for greater improvements, what could be holding them back...? Do you think that the Mesa pilots just feel unworthy of better pay and work rules ADF, or do they find themselves unable to do so because then THEY would cost more, hmmmmm I wonder. Say, how have negotiations been going over at CHQ,,,?
And then you have these silly alter ego affairs. I know that everyone says that it is "just" to get around the scope/JFJ restrictions. But I bet you know better ADF. im betting that you and I both agree that the main reason was to hedge against the primary pilot group at Wexford or Mesa Group asserting too much leverage and thus driving overhead beyond what it cost the majors to fly RJ's themselves. You know like I do ADF, that this sort of thing has already been happening at CHQ, right? CHQ turboprop flying was completely transferred over to the less expensive Shuttle America, no? Hmmm, maybey you guys are not as cheap as you thought you were afterall.
I am curious though ADF, you made it sound like fixed cost at CHQ or TSA or Mesa were so much cheaper than the wholly owneds. I'd love alittle clarification on that point. Im pretty sure that you didnt mean the your hangers or offices were less expensive. US Airway will be able to purhase/lease jets as cheap if not cheaper than any of the affiliates. What could you have been talking about ADF, help us understand.
I mean, even variable costs such as fuel, deicing, catering cannot be much different. I guess you might think that training/route qual/documentation will cost us a far bit, but didnt it cost you just as much as well? Just because you spent a buck last year and I have to spend one ths year doesnt make either of us a buck richer, eh?
Im just lost man, try as I might I just cannot come around to your way of thnking. You know, there's a good chance that you are just plain wrong ADF. I hate to break it to you.
Well I guess that time will tell what will really happen as US Airways (that means us too) comes out of bankruptcy and secures all of that financing. It was sure nice of the various outside "airlines" to provide immediate relief for what Airways needed. We appreciate your help but it is more profitable to do it ourselves in the long run. Just like my example of buying a house is smarter than wasting your rent on apartments forever. US Airays obviously needed a "roof over its head", per se, and had to resort to "renting" RJ's. The portion of future RJ's that have been allocated to the outside "airlines" will cover things in the short term. But the new managment of US Airways is too smart to funnel any more profits to outside "airlines" than they have to. The clear majority of future small jet growth will remain in house (that means us).
>>>I really do hope I am wrong and he wholly owns will be able to spread the wealth with the RJ's.<<<
I dont, ALG, PDT, PSA, or Midatlantic ----> I dont care, as long as it stays in the family.. I loathe the idea of outside "airlines" getting one more USX jet than necessary, because it is big reason Airways is in bankruptcy (while Mesa Group, TSA, and Wexford are profitable). Sorry to be cold, but YOU are the competition to us, not Comair or Eagle (hey, those guys dislike CHQ also... heh, thats funny). If I have to accept pinnacle/NW airlink wage rates and share my cockpit with mainline furloughees to outcompete all of the outsiders that have been undercutting us for years... Then thats what I have to do.
If you think that your gravy train of leeching off our flying will not slow to a crawl in a few years, then I do think YOUR desperation is clouding YOUR judgement of the future ADF. Ask yourself this, when US Airways recovers and eventully starts to hire again only through the wholly owneds, will you then understand the magnitude of change....?
dondk
Don't you wish
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2001
- Posts
- 887
dakotaHC8 said:
While I am a former MESA and Former WO guy... I do not quite get the whole wage rate statement...
While we may not make as much as (2 of the 3) WO's (before concessions), we do make more than Mesa and some of the USX contract carriers. Equally, we are showing positive growth for the next 2-3 years, add to that upgrades that were as short as 8 months or less and is now about 18 months. Still significantly better than the WO's and some of the contract carriers ever were and may ever be.
Lines and days off... They are not the greatest, but are still better than most USX contract carriers and some of the WO's. While they vary month to month, a person with 2 years yields at least 16+ days off, fairly commutable and anywhere between guarantee to 85+ hours. Again, not near what I remember from my WO day but much better than the equal at a USX carrier.
Now only if we could get NWA to stop the whipsawing all of us.
Last edited:
blzr
Well-known member
- Joined
- Sep 6, 2002
- Posts
- 1,502
The bar has forever been lowered. Management has seen that they can manipulate us by the purse strings and if we don't want to play ball, they have many contractors out there willing to fly the routs.
I really do believe that an f/o is worth more $30,000. No one should be in the right seat for less than that. But.... There are those who'll do it for less than $18,000 and it has killed the industry for all of us.
Anyone that thinks this job isn't serious, or that we don't DESERVE to be paid like professionals, think about the consequences of a bad day here. Does the CEO, or CFO have shootdown procedures in their employee manual?I don't think so... Do they face the same consequences we do if mtx screws up, I.E. the Airmidwest flight in CLT... I don't think so...
Just a thought, I mean absolutely no disrespect to Captain Leslie and her F/O.
I really do believe that an f/o is worth more $30,000. No one should be in the right seat for less than that. But.... There are those who'll do it for less than $18,000 and it has killed the industry for all of us.
Anyone that thinks this job isn't serious, or that we don't DESERVE to be paid like professionals, think about the consequences of a bad day here. Does the CEO, or CFO have shootdown procedures in their employee manual?I don't think so... Do they face the same consequences we do if mtx screws up, I.E. the Airmidwest flight in CLT... I don't think so...
Just a thought, I mean absolutely no disrespect to Captain Leslie and her F/O.
I don't think pay is the issue.
It doesn't matter all that much how much the guys up front are getting paid. Really if you break it down by the hour, it doesn't make all that much difference when you compare the cost of the crew making 80 bucks per hour versus 100 bucks when you are burning ten times that much in fuel over the same period.
I think right now, the reason that some of the contract carriers are going to be getting RJ's before the WO's is that they have the ability to finance them RIGHT NOW, not in a year or two if and when the whole bankrupcy thing is settled. For example Mesa already has 59 jets fully financed that will hit the flight line in the next six months (the first deliveries start next week). As soon as the contract is signed, it will get the financing to buy a hell of a lot more. It also has the capital right now to train all the new pilots required. They are already buying all the available sim time in the country for the next year and are negotiating sim time in other countries, including Canada, Germany and Brazil to handle the overflow.
That is why US Air is talking about more than 400 new jets at Mesa in the next 4 years, because Mesa can do it. Then, in 4 years when Mesa is in position to buy out US Air and America West, that's when the pilots will have the leverage to get the compensation they deserve. But that all depends on Mesa pilots signing the contract and killing Freedom and any future possibility of Johnny O ever pulling that kind of whipsaw tactic ever again.
It doesn't matter all that much how much the guys up front are getting paid. Really if you break it down by the hour, it doesn't make all that much difference when you compare the cost of the crew making 80 bucks per hour versus 100 bucks when you are burning ten times that much in fuel over the same period.
I think right now, the reason that some of the contract carriers are going to be getting RJ's before the WO's is that they have the ability to finance them RIGHT NOW, not in a year or two if and when the whole bankrupcy thing is settled. For example Mesa already has 59 jets fully financed that will hit the flight line in the next six months (the first deliveries start next week). As soon as the contract is signed, it will get the financing to buy a hell of a lot more. It also has the capital right now to train all the new pilots required. They are already buying all the available sim time in the country for the next year and are negotiating sim time in other countries, including Canada, Germany and Brazil to handle the overflow.
That is why US Air is talking about more than 400 new jets at Mesa in the next 4 years, because Mesa can do it. Then, in 4 years when Mesa is in position to buy out US Air and America West, that's when the pilots will have the leverage to get the compensation they deserve. But that all depends on Mesa pilots signing the contract and killing Freedom and any future possibility of Johnny O ever pulling that kind of whipsaw tactic ever again.
Last edited:
Posted by BLZR "There are those who'll do it for less than $18,000 and it has killed the industry for all of us."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
When you were a first year FO at ALG or PDT, How much did you make? My guess is that you were once one of the guys that are killing the industry. Your post is a joke. -Bean
ps, One of the main reasons you buy a house is b/c it will normally appreciate over time. Airplanes like cars don't. That analogy doesn't hold water. Nice try though.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
When you were a first year FO at ALG or PDT, How much did you make? My guess is that you were once one of the guys that are killing the industry. Your post is a joke. -Bean
ps, One of the main reasons you buy a house is b/c it will normally appreciate over time. Airplanes like cars don't. That analogy doesn't hold water. Nice try though.
blzr
Well-known member
- Joined
- Sep 6, 2002
- Posts
- 1,502
Couple of things, three years ago I was a new hire at PDT. Our first six months pay was $23.50 and second six was $24.70/hr. After the first year i think it was 26 or 27/hr. There ya have it. I had a chance to go to Mesa, but after talking to ome of my fellow Freight dogs, decided that I could make more money flight instructing or flying freight. Could have gone to Comair, but they were still PAY for Training.. Not a chance..
Ok, Next.... That is absolutely obsurde to think that Mesa will purchase not only one large airline, but TWO?? Reach behind you and put on that O2 mask and take a few deep breaths. Nice try, but That is never going to happen.. really didn't need addressing
back to the pay issue, How many of your captains made 40,000 last year? how many of your f/o's came close to that? I bet none unless you are selling AmWay on the side...
Ok... Anybody heard anything useful reguarding the W/O?
Ok, Next.... That is absolutely obsurde to think that Mesa will purchase not only one large airline, but TWO?? Reach behind you and put on that O2 mask and take a few deep breaths. Nice try, but That is never going to happen.. really didn't need addressing
back to the pay issue, How many of your captains made 40,000 last year? how many of your f/o's came close to that? I bet none unless you are selling AmWay on the side...
Ok... Anybody heard anything useful reguarding the W/O?
Thats the problem with flight instructors and fright dogs. You are only looking at year one or two when you should be looking at the long run. If you had gone to Mesa three years ago, you would be a Jet Capt. instead of a Dash Fo. A third yr Jet Capt at Mesa makes around $55 an hr. What are you making right now as a Dash FO?
All the Capt that are not on the 1900 make over $40,000. The only reason you have FO's coming close is that the upgrade time is so long that you have very senior guys at FO. Not a issue at Mesa.
blzr
Well-known member
- Joined
- Sep 6, 2002
- Posts
- 1,502
Now, hang on there skippy... I did look at the future.... thinking that the regionals were a stepping stone to a major.. looks like it is the other way around.
Sure, I looked t the first year pay, and upgrade time and PDT had what I was looking for. The ability to upgrade in a reasonable amout of time and not starve to death in the process.
Work rules were a big issue. Is it true that you guys could get stuck in a hold and be, like .5 or.7 over block and not get paid for it? can you guys go to the airport and sit all day with a broken airplane and only make per diem? That is so not right.
If your line id blocked for , say 85 hrs, are you guaranteed those hrs, or can you make less? For Feb, I have 102hrs CREDIT.. that's what I get paid, +perdiem, and any overages..So, pay is somewhat the issue, but work rules is where you make money.
I know alot of people are STILL saying that the regionals are just a stepping stone... but to where?
Sure, I looked t the first year pay, and upgrade time and PDT had what I was looking for. The ability to upgrade in a reasonable amout of time and not starve to death in the process.
Work rules were a big issue. Is it true that you guys could get stuck in a hold and be, like .5 or.7 over block and not get paid for it? can you guys go to the airport and sit all day with a broken airplane and only make per diem? That is so not right.
If your line id blocked for , say 85 hrs, are you guaranteed those hrs, or can you make less? For Feb, I have 102hrs CREDIT.. that's what I get paid, +perdiem, and any overages..So, pay is somewhat the issue, but work rules is where you make money.
I know alot of people are STILL saying that the regionals are just a stepping stone... but to where?
Not absurd.
A LONGSHOT, maybe. But the thing is, it is completely possible. All it takes is assets. Right now Mesa is one of the few airlines operating in the black and it is only a short way from that magic line that divides regionals from majors. Now US Air is talking 400+ new jets for Mesa and with United talking the same kind of deal you could see almost 1000 jets flying Mesa colors by 2008. That's a lot of growth and a lot of assets.
And one thing you are forgetting is that miserable bastard that he is, there is one that Johnny O can claim to be and that's a true corporate raider. It sucks to have one on the other side of table during salary negotiations, but if it's turned the other way, it's good to have a shark working at the top of your company.
Johnny O has publically stated that his mission in life right now is to take over America West, he's just waiting for them to stumble. You must also have a short memory, because there was a lot of discussion not too long ago about Johnny O and Mesa being one of the few in position to seriously buy out US Air. Things haven't changed, especially with his good buddy now the CEO of USAir.
Will it happen? That's speculation. But I personally won't be suprised if it does.
A LONGSHOT, maybe. But the thing is, it is completely possible. All it takes is assets. Right now Mesa is one of the few airlines operating in the black and it is only a short way from that magic line that divides regionals from majors. Now US Air is talking 400+ new jets for Mesa and with United talking the same kind of deal you could see almost 1000 jets flying Mesa colors by 2008. That's a lot of growth and a lot of assets.
And one thing you are forgetting is that miserable bastard that he is, there is one that Johnny O can claim to be and that's a true corporate raider. It sucks to have one on the other side of table during salary negotiations, but if it's turned the other way, it's good to have a shark working at the top of your company.
Johnny O has publically stated that his mission in life right now is to take over America West, he's just waiting for them to stumble. You must also have a short memory, because there was a lot of discussion not too long ago about Johnny O and Mesa being one of the few in position to seriously buy out US Air. Things haven't changed, especially with his good buddy now the CEO of USAir.
Will it happen? That's speculation. But I personally won't be suprised if it does.
blzr
Well-known member
- Joined
- Sep 6, 2002
- Posts
- 1,502
NO, SERIOUSLY, O2 BOTTLE OVER YOUR SHOULDER... A FEW HITS ON THAT AND YOU'LL START TO REGAIN CONSCIOUSNESS..
There is one catch to J/o's plan... RSA, another corporate Giant, not raider, and he's not to keen on mesa or that bunch out of Texas that tried to buy a large chunck of US Air.
As for yall becomming a major, I doubt it. I may just be the eternal optimist, but I just don't see US Air farming out any more work when they emerge from Ch11.. Just look at Continental, and that is basically the same buisness plan that U is using. No contractors, in control of all their feed, and.... turning a profit.
As far as United is concerned, Don't count your chickens before they hatch. First they have to survive, and second, air Whisky and ACA will be in line before you guys. Keep em comming though..
Why does Wile Kyote "Super Genious" always get outsmarted by a SPEEDBIRD??
There is one catch to J/o's plan... RSA, another corporate Giant, not raider, and he's not to keen on mesa or that bunch out of Texas that tried to buy a large chunck of US Air.
As for yall becomming a major, I doubt it. I may just be the eternal optimist, but I just don't see US Air farming out any more work when they emerge from Ch11.. Just look at Continental, and that is basically the same buisness plan that U is using. No contractors, in control of all their feed, and.... turning a profit.
As far as United is concerned, Don't count your chickens before they hatch. First they have to survive, and second, air Whisky and ACA will be in line before you guys. Keep em comming though..
Why does Wile Kyote "Super Genious" always get outsmarted by a SPEEDBIRD??
Outsmarted? Hardly.
There's method to the ol' coyotes madness. Two words: Job Security Baby! That's what it's all about.
Anyway, as far as the other stuff goes, time will tell. Anything can happen in this biz. Look back just a couple years and see if anyone could have guessed the state of the flying business now.
There's method to the ol' coyotes madness. Two words: Job Security Baby! That's what it's all about.
Anyway, as far as the other stuff goes, time will tell. Anything can happen in this biz. Look back just a couple years and see if anyone could have guessed the state of the flying business now.
adf1856 which is it ??????
I'm stumped that you can PM me and tell me your DOH is 1997. If you do a search on your screen name 2 posts in oct of 2002 clearly have you stating that you are in the Nov. 7 2002 class and swam for 14 months. Which is it? Are you trying to push yourself as someone your not. Some of us on this board may get into heated arguements and spit and spat for posts on end but we don't missrepresent ourselves.
Plus if your DOH was 1997 at Chit why are you still an FO. I know for a fact that upgrade there is less than 6 years. And don't tell us you didn't upgrade b/c you wanted a good sked. A 97 DOH could hold the top few Capt. slots at Chit at every base except maybe Indy. O also if your DOH is 97 that makes you a PFT piece of trash.
So which is it?????
I'm stumped that you can PM me and tell me your DOH is 1997. If you do a search on your screen name 2 posts in oct of 2002 clearly have you stating that you are in the Nov. 7 2002 class and swam for 14 months. Which is it? Are you trying to push yourself as someone your not. Some of us on this board may get into heated arguements and spit and spat for posts on end but we don't missrepresent ourselves.
Plus if your DOH was 1997 at Chit why are you still an FO. I know for a fact that upgrade there is less than 6 years. And don't tell us you didn't upgrade b/c you wanted a good sked. A 97 DOH could hold the top few Capt. slots at Chit at every base except maybe Indy. O also if your DOH is 97 that makes you a PFT piece of trash.
So which is it?????
I was not knocking Pinnacle, in fact I think it is a good example of future events at US Airways. It was not far into the past that specific company was suffering through a massive transfer of flying to Mesaba right after NW had puchased the airline from Brady.
But then something curious happened, NW realized that it was more profitable to place that flying in house with Pinnacle than to farm it out to Mesaba (even though NW owns a fair portion of Mesaba). Plain and simple, contract carriers are not always the cheaper option and the dramatic shift in RJ growth between the NW Airlink carriers is a prime example.
We at the wholly owneds have negotiated and accepted steep concessions not only to participate in the recovery of our organization (US Airways Group), but to make us more than competitive with affiliated "partners" that US Airways has used beforehand. In the past few years it has been because of the economic advantage your cost structures held over our organizations, and recently it is the necessity to obtain regional jet feed as fast as possible. But as soon as US Airways is able to free itself of the restrictions and limits that a bankruptcy filing produces, it is obvious that a different course will emerge.
The difficult choice for pilots at places like MEsa and CHQ is that their enviorment was designed to get in and get out. With the limited hiring avail to such pilots until 4-5 years from now (maybey) they are realizing that they must make the best of the situation they are in right now. As such, pressure exists to improve work rules and pay rates above current book. The problem is that not much leeway exists until that pushes their costs above what US Airways can do it for themselves.
Too bad, if we had to move backwards because of such "airlines", then I do not feel too much sympathy for those pilots dealing with their "wal-mart" enviorment for the next half decade.
But then something curious happened, NW realized that it was more profitable to place that flying in house with Pinnacle than to farm it out to Mesaba (even though NW owns a fair portion of Mesaba). Plain and simple, contract carriers are not always the cheaper option and the dramatic shift in RJ growth between the NW Airlink carriers is a prime example.
We at the wholly owneds have negotiated and accepted steep concessions not only to participate in the recovery of our organization (US Airways Group), but to make us more than competitive with affiliated "partners" that US Airways has used beforehand. In the past few years it has been because of the economic advantage your cost structures held over our organizations, and recently it is the necessity to obtain regional jet feed as fast as possible. But as soon as US Airways is able to free itself of the restrictions and limits that a bankruptcy filing produces, it is obvious that a different course will emerge.
The difficult choice for pilots at places like MEsa and CHQ is that their enviorment was designed to get in and get out. With the limited hiring avail to such pilots until 4-5 years from now (maybey) they are realizing that they must make the best of the situation they are in right now. As such, pressure exists to improve work rules and pay rates above current book. The problem is that not much leeway exists until that pushes their costs above what US Airways can do it for themselves.
Too bad, if we had to move backwards because of such "airlines", then I do not feel too much sympathy for those pilots dealing with their "wal-mart" enviorment for the next half decade.
blzr
Well-known member
- Joined
- Sep 6, 2002
- Posts
- 1,502
Ok, here's something for all of us at the wholly owned to chew on. This is not a rumor. Teamsters update posted in AVL stated that PSA would start returning all DO-328's back to lessors in Sept'03, and would complete the process by Oct '04. Nothing stated beyond that. Next time in AVL, check it out.
LATR AV8R...
LATR AV8R...
AceCrackshot
Well-known member
- Joined
- Feb 10, 2003
- Posts
- 380
328dude
Still turning two
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
- 1,647
Blzr: Actually, that's incorrect. 6 airplanes are going away in June. With the whole thing to be done with in Oct as you said.
Rumors are flying around PSA right now. We do know that the airplanes are going away. Are they going to be replaced? Almost definitly. Why? Read below. Alot of money to be spent if they were getting rid of us. I also hear good things for the other two as well but they need to resolve the contract issues before Marchg 31st.
D A Y T O N
BUSINESS JOURNAL
From the April 5, 2002 print edition
Airline plans $7.7M Dayton expansion
Kevin Kemper DBJ Staff Reporter
A Dayton-based airline is expanding at Dayton International Airport and adding more than 100 jobs.
PSA Airlines, a regional US Airways Express carrier headquartered at Dayton International, plans to turn a former NCR training facility, adjacent to the Dayton International Airport Hotel, into an office and technology center.
The project will cost more than $7.67 million and create 116 jobs by the end of 2002.
According to a Montgomery County Economic Development/Government Equity grant application, PSA is planning the expansion because US Airways expects to increase service to PSA.
According to the most recent airport statistics, PSA already is seeing an increase in its passenger load, though the airline was hurt by the slowdown in the travel industry following the Sept. 11 terror attacks. In February, PSA had 34 percent more passengers than a year ago. For all of 2001, however, the number of PSA passengers was 10.5 percent lower than in 2000.
To accommodate the expected increase in service, PSA is proposing a $7 million investment in new equipment, machinery and the creation of 116 jobs. The jobs will consist primarily of office and maintenance positions and will have an average salary of $30,000 to $35,000.
The former NCR training center PSA wants has been vacant for more than 10 years.
Renovating the space will cost approximately $676,000. After the renovation, it will include office, training and conference space.
PSA will sign a 25-year lease and begin work on the project in June. The project is scheduled for an October completion and will bring the city of Dayton annual income tax revenue of $344,475 and property tax revenue of $17,500.
The city of Dayton is requesting $200,000 on behalf of PSA to offset construction costs. This project is one of two the city of Dayton is hoping will receive ED/GE funding this spring, and city officials say it has their highest priority. On May 10, the ED/GE advisory board is expected to pick which projects will be funded. Montgomery County commissioners will vote on the projects soon after.
PSA also is expecting to get development incentives of $450,000 from the Ohio Department of Development and $26,000 from the city of Dayton.
PSA Airlines began operating in Dayton in 1986 as a hub feeder for Piedmont Airlines, operating under the name Jetstream. In 1987, the company moved its corporate headquarters to Dayton and established maintenance facilities in Dayton and Hagerstown, Md. In November 1988, US Air acquired Piedmont, and Jetstream became a wholly owned subsidiary of US Air. In 1995, Jetstream changed its name to PSA Airlines, and in 1997 US Air changed its name to US Airways.
Rumors are flying around PSA right now. We do know that the airplanes are going away. Are they going to be replaced? Almost definitly. Why? Read below. Alot of money to be spent if they were getting rid of us. I also hear good things for the other two as well but they need to resolve the contract issues before Marchg 31st.
D A Y T O N
BUSINESS JOURNAL
From the April 5, 2002 print edition
Airline plans $7.7M Dayton expansion
Kevin Kemper DBJ Staff Reporter
A Dayton-based airline is expanding at Dayton International Airport and adding more than 100 jobs.
PSA Airlines, a regional US Airways Express carrier headquartered at Dayton International, plans to turn a former NCR training facility, adjacent to the Dayton International Airport Hotel, into an office and technology center.
The project will cost more than $7.67 million and create 116 jobs by the end of 2002.
According to a Montgomery County Economic Development/Government Equity grant application, PSA is planning the expansion because US Airways expects to increase service to PSA.
According to the most recent airport statistics, PSA already is seeing an increase in its passenger load, though the airline was hurt by the slowdown in the travel industry following the Sept. 11 terror attacks. In February, PSA had 34 percent more passengers than a year ago. For all of 2001, however, the number of PSA passengers was 10.5 percent lower than in 2000.
To accommodate the expected increase in service, PSA is proposing a $7 million investment in new equipment, machinery and the creation of 116 jobs. The jobs will consist primarily of office and maintenance positions and will have an average salary of $30,000 to $35,000.
The former NCR training center PSA wants has been vacant for more than 10 years.
Renovating the space will cost approximately $676,000. After the renovation, it will include office, training and conference space.
PSA will sign a 25-year lease and begin work on the project in June. The project is scheduled for an October completion and will bring the city of Dayton annual income tax revenue of $344,475 and property tax revenue of $17,500.
The city of Dayton is requesting $200,000 on behalf of PSA to offset construction costs. This project is one of two the city of Dayton is hoping will receive ED/GE funding this spring, and city officials say it has their highest priority. On May 10, the ED/GE advisory board is expected to pick which projects will be funded. Montgomery County commissioners will vote on the projects soon after.
PSA also is expecting to get development incentives of $450,000 from the Ohio Department of Development and $26,000 from the city of Dayton.
PSA Airlines began operating in Dayton in 1986 as a hub feeder for Piedmont Airlines, operating under the name Jetstream. In 1987, the company moved its corporate headquarters to Dayton and established maintenance facilities in Dayton and Hagerstown, Md. In November 1988, US Air acquired Piedmont, and Jetstream became a wholly owned subsidiary of US Air. In 1995, Jetstream changed its name to PSA Airlines, and in 1997 US Air changed its name to US Airways.
Dude!
That article was published over four months before USAir declared Chapter 11. You think that the long term plans at PSA might have changed just a little bit since then?
I think coming up with something a little more recent to support your position might be a better idea. At the rate things are changing in this business right now, anything older than a month ago is ancient history.
That article was published over four months before USAir declared Chapter 11. You think that the long term plans at PSA might have changed just a little bit since then?
I think coming up with something a little more recent to support your position might be a better idea. At the rate things are changing in this business right now, anything older than a month ago is ancient history.
Share this page
Latest resources
-
-
-
-
-
AC 90-89C - Amateur-Built Aircraft and Ultralight Flight Testing HandbookAmateur-Built Aircraft and Ultralight Flight Testing Handbook
- Neal
- Updated:
