West Air and SKYW?

[learob]

truckdriver

Not everybody pays more for larger airplanes AWA does not, same pay for a 737-200 or a 757, or Southwest same pay for a 737-100 or a 737-700, and I beleve Alaska does to 737-100 or a 737-400. Also Skywest does not have any 900 or 737 and as far as I know has no plains to get any.

For many years Skywest was among the top 2 or 3 paying companies on a per hour rate scale but usually number 1 on total compensation when you count stock options and profit sharing. Their contract has better work rules and overtime benifits than some majors.

As I understand it, (and current SW guys please jump in if I am wrong), a year or so ago the company came to SWAPA and told them that UAL was hiting them hard for cost savings until they got out of chap 11. The pilot group then took a vote on a pay freeze and incorporating the 700 at the 200 rates, the vote pased because unlike most airlines Skywest pilots wanted to do the right thing and help the company. This was a win win as I see it, The company then got 700's and in a year or so it will be pay back time for the pilots, so we will see if the company makes it right. But I have no reason to doubt that they wont because of the way I was treated during my 5 years there.

 

[Mookie]

LearRob,

That sure is the hope that everyone is counting on. we'll see in December when it's time to man-up whether or not it will happen. things have changed alot here even since i've gotten here. we're getting very big, very fast, and while we have enjoyed the benefits of the expansion, the mgmt/pilot interaction isn't as "warm and fuzzy" as it was even a few years ago. i'm optimistic though. this is still a great place to be with awesome people to work with and to work for day in and day out.

as far as buying another company, and how an integration would work, i asked Jerry Atkins, president that same question during a Q and A in front of a recurrent and newhire class, and he said "we don't buy airlines, we buy assets." take that for what its worth.

Mookie

 

[Truckdriver]

Learob and Strega7, I'll give you credit for your answers. I know SKYW has a very proactive management group because Jerry is running a family built company and he actually cares about it unlike some CEO's of the day. I don't have any reason to doubt that in the future Jerry will "pay back" the pilots for flying the 700 for 200 rates. But, the industry average pay on 70 and 90 seat jets will now be lower because of the rates SKYW has on paper. It doesn't matter that you are not flying them. SKYW hurt every other company that flies 70 and 90 seat jets in this industry by putting those rates on paper. What if SKYW orders 190's and puts a 5 year CA in them for $63/hr. Do you think JBLU will feel good about paying their 190 captains more than that??? You have to admit that what SKYW has done on paper will not help others in the industry. The SKYW pilot group has ridden the back of unionized groups to get what they have got and now they are lowering the bar for those who fought for what they deserved. Proactive management at SKYW, maybe. Proactive pilot goup at SKYW, no way!!

 

[strega7]

The SKYW pilot group has ridden the back of unionized groups to get what they have got and now they are lowering the bar for those who fought for what they deserved.

And I thought this was going to be a real discussion. Are you going to include JetBlue in this "unionized/non-unionized" statement?

 

[Truckdriver]

Yep, you bow out when the truth is told. Just what I thought. I won't include JBLU until the pilots vote down a union 3 times. Most startups begin with no union. The real men and women in this industry understand what unity as a profession means. Talk to any pilot at any one of the legacy carriers and they will be on my side (Other than about 2000 guys at CAL, but that is a whole different subject).

 

[trip]

Seems truckdriver hijacked his own thread? I guess he just had an axe to grind and didnt have the guts to just say it from the start?

 

[Truckdriver]

No, I really was interested in the whole West Air thing and I think I got that answer and the conversation drifted. What mookie said is what concerns me. Jerry saying they buy assets not airlines. There have been other airline CEO's that have this same mentality. Buy the assets and dump thousands of hard working employees on the street. And then they try to act morally and give them preferential hiring status at the bottom of the list. Some of the West Air guys got really screwed because of the SKYW deal. Any employee of an airline (assets) that SKYW decides to buy is in for a royal screw job. Just watch.

 

[AnimalTale]

Here is the scoop:


I had the priviledge of flying for Westair. We had 300+ pilots. Use to have over 1000 pilots, but we spun off to start ACA in IAD. Then D1Ck hed RISELY bought us. The Westair pilots would not tolerate the Mesa contract so they held up a front and did not want to merge seniorities. Hence all the problems with Mesa.

Mind you, Westair was in ops as a UAX carrier since the 70s and started up ACA. Also Westair was a devote ALPA carrier. Come along the black widow parent of aviation (UAL). Since there was animosity between UAL and Mesa/Risely, UAL decided to drop Westair for a non-union carrier, SKYWEST(which also had a couple of coveted LAX gates, that UAL wanted). I think Skywest has a GREAT product and as for BUSINESS sense, I would have chosen Skywest over MESA anyday. Westair was just caught between a piece of crap Risely and no where to go.

So Westair had one year to get out of their long term agreement with YOHnited. Funny thing is, not one ALPA UAL pilot (remember UAL is the most gung ho ALPA carrier) protested against the switch of Westair (ALPA) to Skywest (non ALPA).

THE benefits of the transfer of flying that Westair pilots reaped:

-have a chance to go to BRUSSELS to fly for Ornstein's Virgin Express.
-Token interviews at UAL. (good thing at the time, but very few Westair pilots got hired)
-Skywest pref interviews. (Some of us did not get interviews)
-Transtates hired us too(for their Westcoast ops) if we needed jobs (Almost a guaranteed job)
-ACA pref interviews (almost a guaranteed job)

** For the young guys the oppurtunities to fly else where was great but for the senior emplyyes who really loved and devoted their lives to a great company (westair), they got the short end of the stick.

The employees at Westair where great and at a time where everybody was charging and paying for training, Westair took care of the costs.

Adios

 

[strega7]

Some of the West Air guys got really screwed because of the SKYW deal.

Dude don't let facts get in the way or anything. WestAir was dead. Rizzley killed its chances at another UEX contract. SkyWest became the new UEX carrier. It just so happens WestAir had a few assets that SkyWest could use in its brand new venture. The employees of WestAir blame the Flin(sic) brothers for selling the airline to Mesa and some of those that SkyWest "rehired" are thankful for the chance.

If you want to talk about screwed, look at what your "real men and women in this industry" union members did to the TWA folks. Now there's a great case. Or look at the whole DALPA, Delta, Comair, ASA, RJDC mess. Or Eagle. And not to mention (guess I did) the PFT that was the standard at places like Comair, COEX, ASA, etc. in the early 90's DURING ALPAs watch. Those "real men and women in this industry" didn't go very far out on the limb to stop that practice. Oh, wait a minute, they did what they had to do at the time to keep their jobs. Was that it? What was the cause of PFT? Did SkyWest have PFT?

WestAir was place to be in the late 80's and early 90's. Being sold to Mesa was the begining of the end.

 

[learob]

Man you try to talk to some people with respect and all you get back is flame bate.

truckdriver
I was at Skywest at the time of the hole westair thing and please dont speak on something that you know nothing about. Jerry told my up grade class that they had put an offer on the table to buy all of Westair and it would have keep almost all of their people employed, but Rizzly an outragous amout and at the time Jerry said he did not think it would happen. So who screwed who?

Now on the hole pay thing
If you took the time to check and compare rates there are 3 other carriers that pay more for their 700 guys than Skywest does Mesa is NOT one of them. But if you look at the 200 rates there is only ONE and that is Comair and only by 2 or 3 bucks per hour, not ASA not ACA not Airwisky.
Also NO major that I know of pays more for an aircraft in the same family Look at UAL 319/320, NWA DC-9 10/20/30/40, AWA 319/320, SWA 737 100/200/300/500/700, is that enough.

Btw dont worry to much about Jetblue voting down ALPA I would say atlease 65% of our pilot group is from former ALPA airlines and want NOTHING TO DO WITH ALPA!

 

[Truckdriver]

Animaltale, that was the answer I was looking for. Thank you. I think I now have a better view on the whole West Air deal and I can now say that I understand what went down there. I was mininformed prior to this hijacked thread discussion. As far as the pay on aircraft go, I guess I should just accept the fact that a CRJ 900 is the same plane as a 200 and that I should be happy to work for a company that has the same view. I should be more proactive and willing to "help the company" out and just agree to whatever management decides they need to do. I guess now what I need to do is start a drive to get rid of the union at the company that I work for. That way I can guarantee myself a job making under 30K for the next 5 years.

There is a reason why SKYW was given the UEX contract from West Air and there is a reason why SKYW now flies for CAL in IAH. The reason is you have NO UNION!! UAL management and CAL management love the fact that the workgroups drink the "help the company" out cool aid and will now fly a 90 seat jet for 50 seat rates. Wake up guys!!

 

[Truckdriver]

Learob, CAL pays more to fly the 737-700,800,and 900 than they do to fly the 300 or 500. I think DAL does the same thing. When you get into the 757 and 767 familiy I think all airlines have at least blended rates to compensate for the higher seat numbers on the 767. You and I can cite examples all day long for both sides of the argument. If you honestly believe you deserve the same amount of money to fly a bigger airplane then more power to ya. When JetBlue rolls those 190's out do you want to make $63/hr as a 5 year captain?? Actually you should make $58 because that is what MidAtlantic is flying the 170 for and it's in the same family. Anyone who flies a 90-100 seat jet should get payrates at least in the ball park of F-100 pay at AAL. If you don't beleive this then your crazy!

 

[Rogue5]

There is a reason why SKYW was given the UEX contract from West Air and there is a reason why SKYW now flies for CAL in IAH. The reason is you have NO UNION!!

I thought we've been through all this IAH stiff a while back when it went down and the COEX/XJET guys determined it was their own management that dropped the ball there... If I remember the deal it was that they became an "all jet fleet" to save on training and MX, parked their EMB's, had the IAH flying and sought to relieve themselves of that burden because they couldn't turn a profit on those short runs in jets at rates set by the goverment through EAS.

XJET management (as allowed by your union) gave up that flying. We took on many of your furloughs, and they are making more here as second year jet F.O.s than they would if they went back, which only a few did when given the option.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

Hey,
truckdriver, not all drink the "kool-aid". I voted no on the "TA", yes on the union,, and refuse to fly anything larger than the 50 seater until the pay thing is solved properly(a vote not controlled by the company computer).
If you think you will get DOH or anything other than a pref interview from SKYW in the event of an acquisition of your company, think again! B.H. was screwed out of senority during the sunair deal and I don't think he will allow it to happen again. I personally talked to Jerry A. about acquisition of another company and he said "we won't buy companies, we buy their assets.
I for one will not sit quietly while my senority is diluted for anyone, I would feel bad for anyone whom is screwed during an asset sale, but not bad enough to loose senority. Most of the senior guys feel this way.
Good luck
PBR

 

[roadrunner]

Another point on the IAH Brasilia flying that SkyWest is doing. I'm not sure of the exact number, but a portion of those routes are flown "at risk" by SkyWest, Continental isn't paying for those routes.