West Air and SKYW?

[trip]

Seems truckdriver hijacked his own thread? I guess he just had an axe to grind and didnt have the guts to just say it from the start?

 

[Truckdriver]

No, I really was interested in the whole West Air thing and I think I got that answer and the conversation drifted. What mookie said is what concerns me. Jerry saying they buy assets not airlines. There have been other airline CEO's that have this same mentality. Buy the assets and dump thousands of hard working employees on the street. And then they try to act morally and give them preferential hiring status at the bottom of the list. Some of the West Air guys got really screwed because of the SKYW deal. Any employee of an airline (assets) that SKYW decides to buy is in for a royal screw job. Just watch.

 

[AnimalTale]

Here is the scoop:


I had the priviledge of flying for Westair. We had 300+ pilots. Use to have over 1000 pilots, but we spun off to start ACA in IAD. Then D1Ck hed RISELY bought us. The Westair pilots would not tolerate the Mesa contract so they held up a front and did not want to merge seniorities. Hence all the problems with Mesa.

Mind you, Westair was in ops as a UAX carrier since the 70s and started up ACA. Also Westair was a devote ALPA carrier. Come along the black widow parent of aviation (UAL). Since there was animosity between UAL and Mesa/Risely, UAL decided to drop Westair for a non-union carrier, SKYWEST(which also had a couple of coveted LAX gates, that UAL wanted). I think Skywest has a GREAT product and as for BUSINESS sense, I would have chosen Skywest over MESA anyday. Westair was just caught between a piece of crap Risely and no where to go.

So Westair had one year to get out of their long term agreement with YOHnited. Funny thing is, not one ALPA UAL pilot (remember UAL is the most gung ho ALPA carrier) protested against the switch of Westair (ALPA) to Skywest (non ALPA).

THE benefits of the transfer of flying that Westair pilots reaped:

-have a chance to go to BRUSSELS to fly for Ornstein's Virgin Express.
-Token interviews at UAL. (good thing at the time, but very few Westair pilots got hired)
-Skywest pref interviews. (Some of us did not get interviews)
-Transtates hired us too(for their Westcoast ops) if we needed jobs (Almost a guaranteed job)
-ACA pref interviews (almost a guaranteed job)

** For the young guys the oppurtunities to fly else where was great but for the senior emplyyes who really loved and devoted their lives to a great company (westair), they got the short end of the stick.

The employees at Westair where great and at a time where everybody was charging and paying for training, Westair took care of the costs.

Adios

 

[strega7]

Some of the West Air guys got really screwed because of the SKYW deal.

Dude don't let facts get in the way or anything. WestAir was dead. Rizzley killed its chances at another UEX contract. SkyWest became the new UEX carrier. It just so happens WestAir had a few assets that SkyWest could use in its brand new venture. The employees of WestAir blame the Flin(sic) brothers for selling the airline to Mesa and some of those that SkyWest "rehired" are thankful for the chance.

If you want to talk about screwed, look at what your "real men and women in this industry" union members did to the TWA folks. Now there's a great case. Or look at the whole DALPA, Delta, Comair, ASA, RJDC mess. Or Eagle. And not to mention (guess I did) the PFT that was the standard at places like Comair, COEX, ASA, etc. in the early 90's DURING ALPAs watch. Those "real men and women in this industry" didn't go very far out on the limb to stop that practice. Oh, wait a minute, they did what they had to do at the time to keep their jobs. Was that it? What was the cause of PFT? Did SkyWest have PFT?

WestAir was place to be in the late 80's and early 90's. Being sold to Mesa was the begining of the end.

 

[learob]

Man you try to talk to some people with respect and all you get back is flame bate.

truckdriver
I was at Skywest at the time of the hole westair thing and please dont speak on something that you know nothing about. Jerry told my up grade class that they had put an offer on the table to buy all of Westair and it would have keep almost all of their people employed, but Rizzly an outragous amout and at the time Jerry said he did not think it would happen. So who screwed who?

Now on the hole pay thing
If you took the time to check and compare rates there are 3 other carriers that pay more for their 700 guys than Skywest does Mesa is NOT one of them. But if you look at the 200 rates there is only ONE and that is Comair and only by 2 or 3 bucks per hour, not ASA not ACA not Airwisky.
Also NO major that I know of pays more for an aircraft in the same family Look at UAL 319/320, NWA DC-9 10/20/30/40, AWA 319/320, SWA 737 100/200/300/500/700, is that enough.

Btw dont worry to much about Jetblue voting down ALPA I would say atlease 65% of our pilot group is from former ALPA airlines and want NOTHING TO DO WITH ALPA!

 

[Truckdriver]

Animaltale, that was the answer I was looking for. Thank you. I think I now have a better view on the whole West Air deal and I can now say that I understand what went down there. I was mininformed prior to this hijacked thread discussion. As far as the pay on aircraft go, I guess I should just accept the fact that a CRJ 900 is the same plane as a 200 and that I should be happy to work for a company that has the same view. I should be more proactive and willing to "help the company" out and just agree to whatever management decides they need to do. I guess now what I need to do is start a drive to get rid of the union at the company that I work for. That way I can guarantee myself a job making under 30K for the next 5 years.

There is a reason why SKYW was given the UEX contract from West Air and there is a reason why SKYW now flies for CAL in IAH. The reason is you have NO UNION!! UAL management and CAL management love the fact that the workgroups drink the "help the company" out cool aid and will now fly a 90 seat jet for 50 seat rates. Wake up guys!!

 

[Truckdriver]

Learob, CAL pays more to fly the 737-700,800,and 900 than they do to fly the 300 or 500. I think DAL does the same thing. When you get into the 757 and 767 familiy I think all airlines have at least blended rates to compensate for the higher seat numbers on the 767. You and I can cite examples all day long for both sides of the argument. If you honestly believe you deserve the same amount of money to fly a bigger airplane then more power to ya. When JetBlue rolls those 190's out do you want to make $63/hr as a 5 year captain?? Actually you should make $58 because that is what MidAtlantic is flying the 170 for and it's in the same family. Anyone who flies a 90-100 seat jet should get payrates at least in the ball park of F-100 pay at AAL. If you don't beleive this then your crazy!

 

[Rogue5]

There is a reason why SKYW was given the UEX contract from West Air and there is a reason why SKYW now flies for CAL in IAH. The reason is you have NO UNION!!

I thought we've been through all this IAH stiff a while back when it went down and the COEX/XJET guys determined it was their own management that dropped the ball there... If I remember the deal it was that they became an "all jet fleet" to save on training and MX, parked their EMB's, had the IAH flying and sought to relieve themselves of that burden because they couldn't turn a profit on those short runs in jets at rates set by the goverment through EAS.

XJET management (as allowed by your union) gave up that flying. We took on many of your furloughs, and they are making more here as second year jet F.O.s than they would if they went back, which only a few did when given the option.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

Hey,
truckdriver, not all drink the "kool-aid". I voted no on the "TA", yes on the union,, and refuse to fly anything larger than the 50 seater until the pay thing is solved properly(a vote not controlled by the company computer).
If you think you will get DOH or anything other than a pref interview from SKYW in the event of an acquisition of your company, think again! B.H. was screwed out of senority during the sunair deal and I don't think he will allow it to happen again. I personally talked to Jerry A. about acquisition of another company and he said "we won't buy companies, we buy their assets.
I for one will not sit quietly while my senority is diluted for anyone, I would feel bad for anyone whom is screwed during an asset sale, but not bad enough to loose senority. Most of the senior guys feel this way.
Good luck
PBR

 

[roadrunner]

Another point on the IAH Brasilia flying that SkyWest is doing. I'm not sure of the exact number, but a portion of those routes are flown "at risk" by SkyWest, Continental isn't paying for those routes.

 

[PSPFAWILL]

ALL IAH flying for CO is "at risk flying"

 

[EAP]

Here is the scoop:


So Westair had one year to get out of their long term agreement with YOHnited. Funny thing is, not one ALPA UAL pilot (remember UAL is the most gung ho ALPA carrier) protested against the switch of Westair (ALPA) to Skywest (non ALPA).

The employees at Westair where great and at a time where everybody was charging and paying for training, Westair took care of the costs.

Adios

AnimalTale, I take exception to the fact that no Yonited guys protested the non-union communter flying takeover. In fact, United SFO council 34 passed several, and I mean several UNANIMOUS motions protesting the fact that United feed was going to go to a non union carrier that had SEVERAL times voted to be not represented by a union. What does a motion do? Well, ALPA cannot make UAL leadership completely turn about face on a decision like this, but it does make subtle changes to the direction. For instance, I know several guys that were interviewed and hired preferentially, as the result of these motions.

The second statement I take no objection to. Westair did in fact provide a good product in their earlier years and never went the PFT route like ACA, Comair, Atlantic Coast, Jetstream, etc. Of note, Mesa never did PFT either. And, Westair was one of the very first commuters to successfully provide jet feed with the BAe-146.

 

[TIS]

Fun and games - WestAir in the 90s

The full mid 90s WestAir scoop goes like this.

In December of 1989 Presidential Airlines, the OE carrier for IAD went toes up. The call went out for someone to pick up the slack. Several companies were offered the opportunity and most came up with proposals that would have three to five cities in four to six months time. WestAir came along proposed – I believe it was five cities – by the end of NEXT WEEK! Sold to Tim and Maury out in Fresno.

The operation started and grew rapidly. So rapidly that hiring which had been so-so was now kicked into overdrive. For about six months nearly everyone hired at WestAir was shipped directly to the Washington Front.

Aug. 2, 1990 was the day that everything changed. Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait and set up a pattern of instability that sent fuel prices soaring and profits into the tank. (Sound like a familiar ailment?) By November 1990, WestAir was attempting to furlough the guys they didn’t want around out of seniority – namely the Bandit drivers who were flying the plane they planned to park. You see, they couldn’t afford to let all the Brasilia FOs on the east coast who were junior to the most junior Bandit guys on the west coast go. It would have brought the east coast operation to a screeching halt.

When that didn’t work they started dreaming up other ideas but the damage had been done. During the process of furloughing out of seniority, another nasty little development entered into the mix. NPA, the OE feeder in the Pacific Northwest was folded into WestAir. The reason this mattered was because when they furloughed the Bandit guys the dropped them form the seniority list. Because a general system bid had been triggered by the merger of the NPA and WestAir seniority lists the end result was that when it was all said and done, about 30 or 40 guys simply vanished even though they were still making those 0500 shows in FAT to do two round trips to SNA.

It didn’t take very long to get them back into the list and more or less in the right order but some training decisions had been made in the interim and quite a few people did not get the airplane and seat their proper seniority would hold. This was the source of a number of ALPA grievances and quite a bit of training expense when those grievances were eventually won.

Anyway, along about August 1991, it was clear that WestAir was in a lot of trouble. It was learned later that the paychecks almost bounced several times about then. It was in this climate then, that the sale of ACA to a group headed by Ed Acker was announced. To compact the story, everyone got to take a shot at being where they wanted to end up in a general system bid that was designed to finalize the division and severance of the seniority lists. Guys got screwed there too. A number of them wanted to go to ACA but weren’t allowed to because they filled key seats in the west. They were told that their seniority wouldn’t hold ACA – utter nonsense!

Towards the end of 1991 rumors began to fly about WestAir being up for sale and that Mesa might be the suitor. In short order the rumors were proved and by the end of the first quarter of 1992 Mesa and their union busting policies (and law firm) were in charge. They immediately downsized all existing domiciles and opened “mini-domiciles” in most of the cities WestAir served, thus putting overnight costs on the pilots – they had to pay the rent wherever they ended up. Naturally the lines went into the toilet with the elimination of the overnights. The days were long and the rests reduced almost al the time.

They also parked the six BAe-146s and later the Shorts 360s. Parking the 146s precipitated a flood of backwash through the seniority list as the top 50 or 60 on the list came tumbling down from their lofty perches in the jet. More furloughs that lasted about a month resulted. The reduction in force however, led to breaches in schedule integrity that United couldn’t ignore. On one day something like 40% of all OE flights failed to launch due to lack of crews. Most of these were out of SFO. With the word coming from the big “U” Mesa brought everyone back.

Things got rocky again when Mesa took the Brasilias out of the Northwest and brought them down to California. The crews had to come with them until they could be trained on the J32 – if that’s what they wanted – which they did almost universally. At about the same time the LAX flying, reduced by abandonment of routes was being replaced by dozens of “green hornets” – Mesa Beech 1900Cs – in violation of the WestAir ALPA contract scope and successorship clauses. Soon, Mesa began opening mini-domiciles in WestAir cities.

The writing had been on the wall for a while but this made quite a few start working REALLY hard at getting out. Things ground along for another three years or so and eventually the time came to renew the OE contract and this is when United said enough is enough. WestAir had nothing else to do without the contract and they shut down in 1997.

Hope this hasn't caused any relapses of anyone's post traumatic stress disorder. We were all affected significantly and adversely by the experience of working for and with Mr. Ornstein. Therapy bills should be sent to HIM!

TIS

 

[EAP]

Good background on the IAD expansion. Though I never had an association to Westair, I always thought they had a great setup on the west coast. Out of all the regionals in the 80's I think Westair had some of the best promise. Looking at it based on some of your recounts, it looks like the ACA startup did more damage to Westair than anything, and unfortunately set it up for a Risley cancer cluster in the early 90's.

 

[TriJet]

I know the pilots of Westair had an interview if they wanted one.

Don't forget the United interview for all Westair people.

 

[TIS]

The ACA startup wasn't really out of line - at the time...

As I noted, the thing that sent the ball rolling downhill was Saddam Hussein invading Kuwait. I admit that the things that were adding up to the recession of 90-91 were vital pieces of the puzzle, but the invasion event itself was what did the damage to the airline industry because of what the resulting political instability in the Middle East did to fuel prices.

Fuel costs prior to that point had been between 35% and 40% of the total cost of running the airline. By the end of the year that had risen, some said, to a figure as high as 60%. I remember one article that claimed that American Airlines alone had lost more money in the three quarters that followed the invasion than the entire airline industry had made in profit in its history!

It was really the timing of the planting the ACA seed that was unfortunate. From a business standpoint it was an opportunity not to be missed but it WAS a gamble and the margins weren't fat enough to get away with it in the end. It was an exciting and fast paced time in which almost anything seemed possible. Having to watch it all simply melt away like snow in a temporary mid-winter thaw was hard to take.

For proof of the concept on ACA just look at them now some 14 years later!

TIS

 

[embdrvr]

Hey Truckdriver,

Did SkyWest turn you down during an interview? Were you one of the ones that failed training? Sounds like a case of sour grapes. You make a lot of assumptions based on pure speculation. I know guys from both Westair and SunAir.

Can anyone name a merger or acquistion where both pilot groups were happy with the outcome? SkyWest bid successfully on the routes and UA was tired of Risley and Mesa. SkyWest gave a bunch of Westair guys a shot at a job. Some took it. I've met some of them and not one complained about how things turned out. Maybe we should all boycott Southwest because the Morris Air guys got hosed. Everyone withdraw your application at WN. As soon as all of you pull your app out of the stack I'll withdraw mine. Seriously, why aren't we bashing Southwest? After all they're not ALPA and look what happened to the Morris guys.

The Coex deal was different. However SkyWest wasn't the company that parked all the turboprops in the desert. It probably wasn't cost effective for ExJet to reintroduce the EMB so the flying got contracted out. Did anyone there kick and scream when the EMB's got mothballed or were they too busy drooling over the new planes. Oooohhhh wow...look shiny jet...me fly...

Quit trying to attribute all SkyWest flying to the lack of a union. Bottom line is the company puts out a good service. Performance and reliability are very good. SkyWest pilots may fly a handful of 70's for the price of a 50 for the time being but there is no chance in h.ell that they will fly anything larger than a 70 for a long time. And they will likely see a pay increase for the 70. The only question is how much.

 

[Truckdriver]

embdrvr,

No I was never turned down for anything at SKYW. I never even applied or dreamed of applying because they are a non-union carrier that has consistently shown it is in favor of staying non-union. Never wanted to work there, will never want to work there, and the reason I started this post is because I hope I never work for a carrier that has assets thaty SKYW wants. At this point in my career I worry a little about that when listening to Jerry at investor confereneces.

I beleive in unity as a PROFESSION not soley a company. I know that staying non-union may have been better for some as a COMPANY. Unity as a profession is the only thing that will keep this career what it should be. If you want a career as an airline pilot to be a lower-middle class career then that's fine. Without unity that is where it is going. Unity, Unity, Unity, anything less than that will fail US as pilots. And yes, I said US.

 

[strega7]

Unity as a profession is the only thing that will keep this career what it should be

What should it be and who decides? You, me, ALPA, the market? This profession has and is changing. I'm sorry that doesn't make you happy. Maybe you should have become a lawyer. They stick together very well.


Fly Safe.

 

[Truckdriver]

This profession has and is changing. I'm sorry that doesn't make you happy.

Fly Safe.

The only thing changing in this industry is airline managers have finally found a bunch of pilots that will fly large aircraft for low wages. F-100 guys at AMR get $130/hr. You shouldn't be willing to fly a 100 seat aircraft for $100/hr let alone a 159 seat aircraft. I know you don't have any on property but the rates on paper do just as much damage. If you think that the market is determining pay rates on aircraft you are crazy. Airline managers have set up capacity purchase agreements or cost-plus agreements for a reason. That reason is to constantly put downward pressure on labor costs and to put "regionals" into a low-cost bidding war to save "mainline" money. The recent RFP, or whatever they called it, at DCI is a great example. When pilots buy into "the market just won't support those wages" line, they are stupid. As for me, I'll let ALPA set my wages. I trust them more than I trust CEO's these days.