We're Takin It Back!

[av8er2]

There really is no future in the airlines. Same stuff that has been going on for years.

 

[BobbyBiplane]

The simple fact is this:

ALPA has NEVER been in control, and, given their history, never will. That said, they have nothing to "take back."

 

[JoeMerchant]

ALPA best represents the interests of the OLD highest paid, highest dues paying members and all potential new ones. All of us in between are screwed!

Seems like it's ALL about the money for ALPA

Be careful Coopervane, you are starting to sound like me...... I agree with you, but what are we going to do about it?

 

[JoeMerchant]

How can you take it back when you never had it in the first place?

They can take back 2% of your paycheck.......

 

[JoeMerchant]

You regional guys just don't get it. You cost ALPA far more than you'll ever pay in!!! You hear that giant sucking sound? That's the sound of the regional ALPA carriers sucking all of the dues income from the legacy carriers who actually pay for the ALPA services that you use. If ALPA was "all about the money" as you say, then ALPA would dump every regional airline and only focus on the legacies. There's no money to be made in representing regional pilot groups.

Maybe it's just time for the regionals to leave ALPA.... then everyone will be happy....

I love how you put it.... "You regional guys just don't get it".... No PCL, you and the rest of the ALPA cheerleaders just don't get it..... There shouldn't be "regional" and "major" pilots... there should just be pilots....

Keep lecturing us a little "regional" pilots PCL.... You aren't doing ALPA any favors.....

You of all people... first you paid Gulfstream to sit in the right seat, then you went to PCL which is one of the worst paid regionals, and now you are at AirTran which is having some serious contract issues..... 3 crappy pay companies, 2 of which aren't even ALPA, and you want to lecture us about how "WE don't get it"..... NO YOU nor ALPA GET IT.......

 

[JoeMerchant]

I love it:


YOU REGIONAL GUYS


You have been away from GIA how long?

Then he went to PCL, and now AirTran.... he's really raising that bar isn't he.....

 

[PCL_128]

Ahh, it's my old friend Joey. I was wondering where you were.

Maybe it's just time for the regionals to leave ALPA.... then everyone will be happy....

No, then no one will be happy. The regionals will continue to devolve into chaos, and the regional pilots will continue to complain that the mainline pilots are trying to screw them over. Guys like you will continue to file lawsuits, etc....

There shouldn't be "regional" and "major" pilots... there should just be pilots....

I agree. Now how do we get there, Joe. I think the upcoming flowthrough agreement at USAir is a good start, along with the Compass/NWA flowthrough, but you don't agree with those programs. What do you suggest? And please don't just launch into another diatribe about how ALPA has screwed you over. We've all heard it before. Let's hear some solutions for a change.

 

[EMB170Pilot]

I'm the real PCL_128

 

[JoeMerchant]

PCL 128, being the good Herndon lap dog that he is, is saying that unions aren't about money.... However the facts don't back that up...

The AFL-CIO is supporting illegal alien amnesty and has filed a lawsuit against the "no match letter law".... you would think that the largest labor union would support laws that stop cheap labor from coming into the US, but they don't.... Why you ask? Because they are potential dues paying members.....

Here are two links...

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines/021700-02.htm

http://www.nilc.org/immsemplymnt/SSA_Related_Info/ssa003.htm

 

[PCL_128]

PCL 128, being the good Herndon lap dog that he is, is saying that unions aren't about money.... However the facts don't back that up...

Actually, the facts do back that up. You simply refuse to acknowledge the facts. True or false, Joey: the ASA MEC's budget exceeds the amount of dues revenue that the ASA pilot group sends to the Association. As a former ST, you should know that the answer to that question is a resounding TRUE.

The AFL-CIO is supporting illegal alien amnesty and has filed a lawsuit against the "no match letter law".... you would think that the largest labor union would support laws that stop cheap labor from coming into the US, but they don't.... Why you ask? Because they are potential dues paying members.....

You should do a little bit more reading, Joey. The AFL-CIO is opposed to this law because 70% of the SSA "mismatch" cases are of legal United States citizens and are only caused by clerical errors. There are much better ways to enforce immigration law that don't put legal workers at risk.

 

[smeggler]

PCL 128 is a PFT bastard. Now he thinks he is all high and mighty because he is at AirTran and he can talk down to us regional pukes. Well guess what dipsh*t, Airtran, if you haven't figured out yet is basically a regional with only slightly bigger airplanes. And if that BS TA passes you will see exactly what I mean. Good luck to you and I have nothing against those at Airtran (especially Lear70) but the rest of us would rather not listen to the rantings of some PFT d*@chebag! Congrats on your job but never forget where you came from! Its PFT pukes who help drive down the compensation for new FOs. I mean why pay someone for the job if that person is willing to pay for it themselves.
Oh and by the way I am represented by ALPO. And at my company our motto is fly now grieve later. Which basically means the company can interpret the contract however they want and maybe 12 months from now I might be able to grieve it and possibly get a ruling within a couple of years and by then who cares anyway. Hell our company routinely decides to not follow the contract and I don't hear jack sh*t from the union except for we are filing a grievance. Months later there has still been no response. If any of you Skywest guys and gals are listening I am telling you it is no different from what you have now except the only difference is that you will be paying dues. Rant over and PCL shut the F*ck up!

 

[JoeMerchant]

Actually, the facts do back that up. You simply refuse to acknowledge the facts. True or false, Joey: the ASA MEC's budget exceeds the amount of dues revenue that the ASA pilot group sends to the Association. As a former ST, you should know that the answer to that question is a resounding TRUE.

That fact by itself is true.... however, for the rest of the story.....

1. Money alone can't trump the competition that management is using with the "portfolio" concept.... That will only be overcome when the mainline groups and ALPA national decide that true "brand scope" is a requirement of any future contract.... I won't hold my breath, but that is what is required.....

2. Because of that money that the regionals receive from ALPA, they become beholden to the mainline and to ALPA national.

In summary, we receive more money than we put in, but we still have to compete for flying, and we are beholden to our "masters".... Thanks but No Thanks!

You should do a little bit more reading, Joey. The AFL-CIO is opposed to this law because 70% of the SSA "mismatch" cases are of legal United States citizens and are only caused by clerical errors. There are much better ways to enforce immigration law that don't put legal workers at risk.

Maybe you should do a little more reseach before you shoot your mouth off.....

New Orleans - Adopting a significant change in policy, the American labor movement called for blanket amnesty for illegal immigrants yesterday and an end to most sanctions against employers who hire them.
In past decades, labor unions often saw immigrant workers as the enemy, accusing them of depressing wages and breaking strikes. But the executive council of the AFL-CIO adopted a more sympathetic approach, contending that too often, U.S. immigration rules have enabled employers to exploit illegal immigrants.

That came from:
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines/021700-02.htm

Comments?

Couldn't be about dues money in a declining membership environment now could it?

 

[TurboAWD]

Just ask the East Coast Airways Pilot group how they feel about how ALPA represented them.

ALPA National represented them just fine. Their elected reps went to the integration negotiations with unreasonable goals, and the result is their pilots got screwed.

Turbo

 

[PCL_128]

In summary, we receive more money than we put in, but we still have to compete for flying, and we are beholden to our "masters".... Thanks but No Thanks!

So, in summary, it has absolutely nothing to do with money. Thanks for proving my point for me, Joe. As for the master/slave relationship that you keep referring to, I've asked you repeatedly for your ideas to fix the current system, but you still provide none. I am all in favor of a system that ends the regional/mainline divide, but I have yet to hear any workable solutions.

Maybe you should do a little more reseach before you shoot your mouth off.....

Wow, you dug deep for that one, Joey! That article was written over 7 years ago when Clinton was still in office. I'm honestly not sure what the AFL-CIO's current position is on amnesty, but I haven't heard anything lately from them in support of it.

 

[DX Rick]

Just as I suspected, no comments on the actual facts. Just more ignorance from the anti-ALPA zealots.

Mr Pro ALPA.
How do you feel, knowing you PAID an Eastern SCAB for your first job?
Second, why did you leave an ALPA carrier for an non ALPA carrier?

You do nothing but spin and deflect questions.

 

[PCL_128]

Second, why did you leave an ALPA carrier for an non ALPA carrier?

I left a regional for a career airline. Despite it not being ALPA (which I would prefer), it is a union carrier. I did not apply to any non-union carriers during my job search. Although I feel that ALPA is the best option, there's certainly nothing wrong with having an internal union if that's what the majority wants. The important thing is having representation so that you can contribute to pattern bargaining.

 

[JoeMerchant]

So, in summary, it has absolutely nothing to do with money. Thanks for proving my point for me, Joe. As for the master/slave relationship that you keep referring to, I've asked you repeatedly for your ideas to fix the current system, but you still provide none. I am all in favor of a system that ends the regional/mainline divide, but I have yet to hear any workable solutions.

There needs to be one list, and one voice for each brand.... until that time, we will continue to compete with each other..... union or not, ALPA or not, we will compete.... Brand scope initiated by the mainlines and ALPA national will be needed to accomplish this.... however I won't hold my breath...

Wow, you dug deep for that one, Joey! That article was written over 7 years ago when Clinton was still in office. I'm honestly not sure what the AFL-CIO's current position is on amnesty, but I haven't heard anything lately from them in support of it.

The AFL CIO hasn't changed it's tune since then.... they are still opposed to fighting illegal immigration.... you have become quite the Democratic lap dog in addition to you Herndon lap dog duties....

 

[PCL_128]

There needs to be one list, and one voice for each brand.... until that time, we will continue to compete with each other..... union or not, ALPA or not, we will compete.... Brand scope initiated by the mainlines and ALPA national will be needed to accomplish this.... however I won't hold my breath...

Brand scope would have been great when the brand was easily definable. When I went to work for Pinnacle, the brand was easy to define: NWA, PCL (then EXA), and MSA. Now NewCo (umm, I mean Compass) has been added to the list, and PCL flies for Delta also. How do you combine this "brand" into one seniority list now? Do the PCL guys get added to the NWA list, or the DAL list? Do they just get left out in the cold, despite being ALPA members? The DAL brand is the hardest to define. How many feeder carriers does DAL now use? Is it up to 10 now? Some are non-ALPA, some are non-union, how do you combine this "brand" into a single list, Joe? The brand scope ship has sailed. The mainline pilots FUBARed that one pretty good. Time to look for a new solution.

The AFL CIO hasn't changed it's tune since then.... they are still opposed to fighting illegal immigration.... you have become quite the Democratic lap dog in addition to you Herndon lap dog duties....

Check your other thread. I'm with you on this one...

 

[JoeMerchant]

Brand scope would have been great when the brand was easily definable. When I went to work for Pinnacle, the brand was easy to define: NWA, PCL (then EXA), and MSA. Now NewCo (umm, I mean Compass) has been added to the list, and PCL flies for Delta also. How do you combine this "brand" into one seniority list now? Do the PCL guys get added to the NWA list, or the DAL list? Do they just get left out in the cold, despite being ALPA members? The DAL brand is the hardest to define. How many feeder carriers does DAL now use? Is it up to 10 now? Some are non-ALPA, some are non-union, how do you combine this "brand" into a single list, Joe? The brand scope ship has sailed. The mainline pilots FUBARed that one pretty good. Time to look for a new solution.

It wasn't too late when ASA and CMR filed the PID.... I actually supported ALPA at that time..... Your right that they "FUBARed" this, but many of us at the regional level "told them so" long before they "FUBARed" it....

It may be too late to reverse it now, I don't now... however don't ask me to accept this failure... I will continue to do what is best for me despite the failures of ALPA, and I will never support ALPA again until it reverses it's behavior....

Check your other thread. I'm with you on this one...

That's progress.....
:beer:

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

There really is no future in the airlines. Same stuff that has been going on for years.

Agreed! Many jobs have been eliminated over time due to outsourcing or technology. Air Line Pilots are no different....

Get informed... the globalization is here...

The simple fact is this:

ALPA has NEVER been in control, and, given their history, never will. That said, they have nothing to "take back."

This is correct. ALPA is not in control. The stuffy old white men in pinstripe suits determined a long time ago that labor will not shutdown the railroads or the airlines.

Now, you [the reader] think you are one of the golden boys: An Air LINE pilot? Well, no one really gives a steamer about you. The pax want thier cheap tickets, management wants the jet flown when, how, and where they want it and your wife wants the house note paid. (or she is making her own bank and really doesn't care what you do for a living..)

The only people that care about Air Line Pilots are Air Line Pilots. So you can man up and care about your self or you can whine and complain that no one cares about you and life is not fair....