We're Takin It Back!

[Rez O. Lewshun]

ALPA also provides the resources to other union pilot groups, who work for other ALPA represented airlines, who come in and take your flying.

How should ALPA prevent that....

No amount of balls will ever stop that...unless ALPA national grows some. The union is worthless because the leadership will never say no to any contract, no matter what the consequences to the membership.

Contracts that the membership vote on? How abou the May 17th rally in DC? 80 pilots out of 60,000 show up? Who's career are we taling about?

Got a better idea?

 

[XJohXJ]

We've all heard the expression that money equals power. Yes, ALPA is a big organization, and they have staff, and overhead, and they need money to make it all work. Welcome to the USA. Without money, you're nothing.

However, what ALPA really desires is power. They need pilots in their ranks and money in the account to have power: economic, moral, political power. I would wish that every pilot understands that it is in our interest to help ALPA to have as much power as ever is possible. Without power, ALPA can't help us. With power, and UNITY, maybe we can all get back our careers. Isn't that what we all want?

 

[DX Rick]

The problem is that we don't seem to be learning from mistakes from the past

Ah......If we did that, we might not be so likely to give management their concessions they want to "save the company".
Every single time ALPA/pilots agree to, management takes a multi million dollar bonus.

 

[A350]

Rez:

Well, one problem is the size of jets flown at regional airlines. This horse may have left the barn....but IMO, ALPA national should have refused to sign any regional contract that had a payrate for jets that exceeded 50 seats. The economics of these jets make large numbers of them impractical and the airline management playbook would lose a very tricky play. ALPA national kept signing these contracts and airline management kept getting drunk on them.

This is one example of ALPA national not defending the profession.

A350

 

[BoilerUP]

Rez:

Well, one problem is the size of jets flown at regional airlines. This horse may have left the barn....but IMO, ALPA national should have refused to sign any regional contract that had a payrate for jets that exceeded 50 seats. The economics of these jets make large numbers of them impractical and the airline management playbook would lose a very tricky play. ALPA national kept signing these contracts and airline management kept getting drunk on them.

This is one example of ALPA national not defending the profession.

A350

How is that a failure of ALPA National?

Maybe legacy pilots shouldn't have sold scope allowing small jets larger than 50 seats to be flown outside of their seniority list, and we wouldn't be in the situation we're in now.

But I guess its easier to blame somebody else than ourselves.

 

[PCL_128]

How is that a failure of ALPA National?

Maybe legacy pilots shouldn't have sold scope allowing small jets larger than 50 seats to be flown outside of their seniority list, and we wouldn't be in the situation we're in now.

But I guess its easier to blame somebody else than ourselves.

Exactly, Boiler. The Legacy pilots want to point their finger at ALPA, but all ALPA did was give them exactly what they asked for. Legacy pilots made the decision to outsource their own flying. The fact that these guys try to blame ALPA for their own mistakes is just ridiculous.

 

[A350]

No, the ridiculous part is looking in the mirror and thinking that the regional pilots had nothing to do with it.....

Take USAir for example....they had the best scope in the business. Management slowly ate away at it, but it really took on a life of its own after 9/11. The minions of regional pilots, those who were active regional pilots, and those yet to be hired, were clawing like rabid pit bulls to get into the business. They did, thousands of mainline pilots lost their jobs, and today we find ourselves with thousands of regional pilots who are going to be at their carrier for the rest of their careers. Why? Because there is no incentive to work for a legacy anymore. There are half the mainline jobs to get. The only thing that has helped is the fact that so many legacy guys were so fed up with the degradation of their profession,that they retired early or refused to return from furlough.

The end result is the majority of regional pilots will be stuck there and those that are lucky enough to get out will not see any movement for years because of age 65. And now ALPA national is standing and towing the FAA line on that as well.

ALPA should have never allowed anything above 70 seats to be flown anywhere except mainline. At this time, in the ALPA operations manual, there is nothing preventing Mesa from flying A320's for United, except their scope clause. If something wiped out their scope, I am sure ALPA national would have nothing to say.

They need to step up to the plate and put a limit on that. Waiting only delays the inevitable.

A350

 

[PCL_128]

No, the ridiculous part is looking in the mirror and thinking that the regional pilots had nothing to do with it.....

The regional pilots only accepted the scraps that you threw at them. They had absolutely no part in the decision to outsource your flying.

Take USAir for example....they had the best scope in the business. Management slowly ate away at it

Management can't eat away at it if you vote no. The legacy pilots made the bad decision that other things were more important to them than scope. A stupid decision, but not one that ALPA made for you.

ALPA should have never allowed anything above 70 seats to be flown anywhere except mainline.

See, there you go making the same mistake again. Once you put a seat restriction on it and say that that number of seats is acceptable, then you're putting the issue of scope out on the table for negotiations. This never should have been done, period. All legacy scope should look like the old Braniff scope clause:

"All flying for Braniff Airlines will be conducted by pilots on the Braniff Airlines pilot system seniority list."

Period. End of story. Not negotiable. Once you get away from that, you can never turn back and it only gets worse as time goes on.

At this time, in the ALPA operations manual, there is nothing preventing Mesa from flying A320's for United, except their scope clause. If something wiped out their scope, I am sure ALPA national would have nothing to say.

First, there's no such thing as an "ALPA operations manual." Second, scope doesn't get wiped out unless pilots vote for it to be wiped out. Every scope clause in existence at the legacy carriers was voted on by the pilots at that airline. You can keep trying to deflect the blame, but it always comes back to the pilots at the legacies that voted for it.

They need to step up to the plate and put a limit on that.

The ones that need to step up to the plate are the mainline pilots who think it's acceptable to give up scope for a few extra bucks on the payrates. Look, I actually agree with you that the ALPA President should refuse to sign any more contracts with scope concessions, and I disagreed with Duane about signing most of the concessionary contracts over the past 6 years that completely sold out scope language. However, it doesn't pass the smell test to blame ALPA for your own decisions on this subject. It certainly would have been nice for Duane to have said no, but when it comes right down to it, the blame rests solely with the people that were responsible for voting on their own contracts.

 

[BoilerUP]

No, the ridiculous part is looking in the mirror and thinking that the regional pilots had nothing to do with it.....

YOU had an opportunity to keep all turbojets at mainline, and you sold it. YOU had an opportunity to keep 50 seat small jets at mainline, and you sold it. YOU had an opportunity to keep 70 seats at mainline, and you sold it. YOU had an opportunity to keep 86 seats at mainline, and you sold it.

But somehow in your mind this is all the fault of those greedy, SJS-infused regional pilots and a failure of leadership at ALPA National? What about your own MEC? What about your own pilot group? What about yourself? When are YOU going to take ownership for your decision to sell your scope?

Your attitude of superiority, entitlement, and blamelessness is what an unbelieving crowd simply finds unbelievable....

 

[A350]

OK, so it was my fault that the scope was abrogated....I think not.

I voted NO to every contract that was doled out to the group that had scope concessions. My old MEC was the worst. The pilot group was weak. ALPA national should have seen that and acted. Of course, then we would be discussing how the mainline, fat old legacy pilots kept you down.

In many cases, we didn't sell anything. It was jammed down our throats, either in BK or otherwise. The problem was there was a readily available supply of SJS infused guys (your words, not mine) and ALPA national supplied contracts and union pilots to do the work.

No superiority complex here....I just won't stand here and let you tell me how I need to blame myself for the demise of my career. I did what I could. The problem is the Association is set up to fail. When you come to that realization, only then can meaningful change occur and then the past can be prevented from occurring again and again and again.

A350

 

[PCL_128]

OK, so it was my fault that the scope was abrogated....I think not.

Not you specifically, but mainline pilots in general, yes.

Of course, then we would be discussing how the mainline, fat old legacy pilots kept you down.

Very few regional pilots are in favor of the outsourcing that has taken place. Yes, a few guys like the RJDC clowns want to see more and more scope disappear, but the majority of regional pilots wanted to see you keep your scope language so they could get out of the regionals. It was rare that I flew with an FO who wanted to see bigger airplanes outsourced to the regionals.

 

[Turtlesfly]

PCL - the demise is thanks to greedy management, not the mainline pilots. They were just the means to the end that Mgmt wanted

 

[PCL_128]

PCL - the demise is thanks to greedy management, not the mainline pilots. They were just the means to the end that Mgmt wanted

None of it happened without the willing cooperation of the mainline pilots. If none of you are willing to admit fault, then we'll never prevent the same mistakes from happening in the future. You can't learn from history if you don't draw the correct conclusions from it.

 

[Turtlesfly]

None of it happened without the willing cooperation of the mainline pilots. If none of you are willing to admit fault, then we'll never prevent the same mistakes from happening in the future. You can't learn from history if you don't draw the correct conclusions from it.

True, but that's like saying that the guys in the World Trade Centers willingly jumped to their death when the building was on fire. Well, they chose to do it, but it was becasue they were going to get burned if they didn't.

 

[PCL_128]

True, but that's like saying that the guys in the World Trade Centers willingly jumped to their death when the building was on fire. Well, they chose to do it, but it was becasue they were going to get burned if they didn't.

Then how do you account for scope concessions pre-9/11? Remember, this is only the latest iteration of a problem that's been going on since the EAL pilots gave up "Eastern Express" flying in the 80s. The first RJ arrived in DAL colors in the early 90s. There were 70-seat CRJs flying around long before 9/11. AWAC was flying 100-seat BAe-146s for UAL before 9/11. Mainline pilots can't hide behind 9/11 and bankruptcy to account for this monumental mistake. It may have gotten worse after 9/11, but the problem never would have existed in the first place if mainline pilots hadn't given up scope for two decades previously. Once you've given management an inch, they're going to want a mile.

 

[TurboAWD]

The union is worthless because the leadership will never say no to any contract, no matter what the consequences to the membership.

Do you mainline guys not get to vote on your contracts?

And as for your "it's RJ pilots fault" BS:

ALL OUTSOURCED JET JOBS WERE VOTED AWAY BY MAINLINE PILOTS!!!

RJ pilots may be fighting amongs themselves for lowest RJ pay, but none of them would be flying anything but props if you guys hadn't let it go. And then kept letting it go by voting away bigger and bigger aircraft. I should be complaining to YOU for wrecking MY career, if anything.

Thanks pal,

Turbo

 

[siucavflight]

Turbo, fantastic post.
Yeah A350, thanks for ruining our careers!

 

[A350]

Don't thank me....I voted NO.

If you had a union looking out for your career....it may not have happened the way it did.

Not only did it put a hurt on my career, it did the same to you as well. Now we live with the consequences.

A350

 

[TurboAWD]

Thanks for voting NO.

Although (and I am not talking about you), isn't it funny how after the fact everyone voted no?

As far as the Union thing, if the pilots didn't want the scope relief, they should have voted no. If they didn't think the MEC was representing them well, they should have replaced them. "The Union" is made up of pilots, and only pilots can give it direction and make things happen

As far as "National" not allowing crappy contracts that degrade the profession, I'm all for that. But looked what happened when the East guys didn't like what occurred: They want to take their ball and go home. Funny how there wasn't such outrage at the release of scope or even the bankruptcy contract.

Turbo

 

[arthompson]

AWAC was flying 100-seat BAe-146s for UAL before 9/11. quote]

This is not a fair comparison. As a former AWAC employee let me comment. ALL AWAC routes for UAL in the 146 pre 9/11 were routes operated by Air Wis before the buy out by United, UAL then spun off the company minus the slots that UAL aquired from ZW @ ORD. For many years all ZW had were the 146's and they were scoped out of any growth. The United Express "brand" came to UAX as part of the buy out by UAL, prior to that all the routes were code share, sold by ZW operated in ZW colors by ZW crews.

I don't know if ALPA was involved in the grievance, however the AFA was awarded an abritation for not being able to bid ZW routes while ZW was a wholey owned.