We're Takin It Back!

[Rez O. Lewshun]

ALPA also provides the resources to other union pilot groups, who work for other ALPA represented airlines, who come in and take your flying.

How should ALPA prevent that....

No amount of balls will ever stop that...unless ALPA national grows some. The union is worthless because the leadership will never say no to any contract, no matter what the consequences to the membership.

Contracts that the membership vote on? How abou the May 17th rally in DC? 80 pilots out of 60,000 show up? Who's career are we taling about?

Got a better idea?

 

[XJohXJ]

We've all heard the expression that money equals power. Yes, ALPA is a big organization, and they have staff, and overhead, and they need money to make it all work. Welcome to the USA. Without money, you're nothing.

However, what ALPA really desires is power. They need pilots in their ranks and money in the account to have power: economic, moral, political power. I would wish that every pilot understands that it is in our interest to help ALPA to have as much power as ever is possible. Without power, ALPA can't help us. With power, and UNITY, maybe we can all get back our careers. Isn't that what we all want?

 

[DX Rick]

The problem is that we don't seem to be learning from mistakes from the past

Ah......If we did that, we might not be so likely to give management their concessions they want to "save the company".
Every single time ALPA/pilots agree to, management takes a multi million dollar bonus.

 

[A350]

Rez:

Well, one problem is the size of jets flown at regional airlines. This horse may have left the barn....but IMO, ALPA national should have refused to sign any regional contract that had a payrate for jets that exceeded 50 seats. The economics of these jets make large numbers of them impractical and the airline management playbook would lose a very tricky play. ALPA national kept signing these contracts and airline management kept getting drunk on them.

This is one example of ALPA national not defending the profession.

A350

 

[BoilerUP]

Rez:

Well, one problem is the size of jets flown at regional airlines. This horse may have left the barn....but IMO, ALPA national should have refused to sign any regional contract that had a payrate for jets that exceeded 50 seats. The economics of these jets make large numbers of them impractical and the airline management playbook would lose a very tricky play. ALPA national kept signing these contracts and airline management kept getting drunk on them.

This is one example of ALPA national not defending the profession.

A350

How is that a failure of ALPA National?

Maybe legacy pilots shouldn't have sold scope allowing small jets larger than 50 seats to be flown outside of their seniority list, and we wouldn't be in the situation we're in now.

But I guess its easier to blame somebody else than ourselves.

 

[PCL_128]

How is that a failure of ALPA National?

Maybe legacy pilots shouldn't have sold scope allowing small jets larger than 50 seats to be flown outside of their seniority list, and we wouldn't be in the situation we're in now.

But I guess its easier to blame somebody else than ourselves.

Exactly, Boiler. The Legacy pilots want to point their finger at ALPA, but all ALPA did was give them exactly what they asked for. Legacy pilots made the decision to outsource their own flying. The fact that these guys try to blame ALPA for their own mistakes is just ridiculous.

 

[A350]

No, the ridiculous part is looking in the mirror and thinking that the regional pilots had nothing to do with it.....

Take USAir for example....they had the best scope in the business. Management slowly ate away at it, but it really took on a life of its own after 9/11. The minions of regional pilots, those who were active regional pilots, and those yet to be hired, were clawing like rabid pit bulls to get into the business. They did, thousands of mainline pilots lost their jobs, and today we find ourselves with thousands of regional pilots who are going to be at their carrier for the rest of their careers. Why? Because there is no incentive to work for a legacy anymore. There are half the mainline jobs to get. The only thing that has helped is the fact that so many legacy guys were so fed up with the degradation of their profession,that they retired early or refused to return from furlough.

The end result is the majority of regional pilots will be stuck there and those that are lucky enough to get out will not see any movement for years because of age 65. And now ALPA national is standing and towing the FAA line on that as well.

ALPA should have never allowed anything above 70 seats to be flown anywhere except mainline. At this time, in the ALPA operations manual, there is nothing preventing Mesa from flying A320's for United, except their scope clause. If something wiped out their scope, I am sure ALPA national would have nothing to say.

They need to step up to the plate and put a limit on that. Waiting only delays the inevitable.

A350

 

[PCL_128]

No, the ridiculous part is looking in the mirror and thinking that the regional pilots had nothing to do with it.....

The regional pilots only accepted the scraps that you threw at them. They had absolutely no part in the decision to outsource your flying.

Take USAir for example....they had the best scope in the business. Management slowly ate away at it

Management can't eat away at it if you vote no. The legacy pilots made the bad decision that other things were more important to them than scope. A stupid decision, but not one that ALPA made for you.

ALPA should have never allowed anything above 70 seats to be flown anywhere except mainline.

See, there you go making the same mistake again. Once you put a seat restriction on it and say that that number of seats is acceptable, then you're putting the issue of scope out on the table for negotiations. This never should have been done, period. All legacy scope should look like the old Braniff scope clause:

"All flying for Braniff Airlines will be conducted by pilots on the Braniff Airlines pilot system seniority list."

Period. End of story. Not negotiable. Once you get away from that, you can never turn back and it only gets worse as time goes on.

At this time, in the ALPA operations manual, there is nothing preventing Mesa from flying A320's for United, except their scope clause. If something wiped out their scope, I am sure ALPA national would have nothing to say.

First, there's no such thing as an "ALPA operations manual." Second, scope doesn't get wiped out unless pilots vote for it to be wiped out. Every scope clause in existence at the legacy carriers was voted on by the pilots at that airline. You can keep trying to deflect the blame, but it always comes back to the pilots at the legacies that voted for it.

They need to step up to the plate and put a limit on that.

The ones that need to step up to the plate are the mainline pilots who think it's acceptable to give up scope for a few extra bucks on the payrates. Look, I actually agree with you that the ALPA President should refuse to sign any more contracts with scope concessions, and I disagreed with Duane about signing most of the concessionary contracts over the past 6 years that completely sold out scope language. However, it doesn't pass the smell test to blame ALPA for your own decisions on this subject. It certainly would have been nice for Duane to have said no, but when it comes right down to it, the blame rests solely with the people that were responsible for voting on their own contracts.

 

[BoilerUP]

No, the ridiculous part is looking in the mirror and thinking that the regional pilots had nothing to do with it.....

YOU had an opportunity to keep all turbojets at mainline, and you sold it. YOU had an opportunity to keep 50 seat small jets at mainline, and you sold it. YOU had an opportunity to keep 70 seats at mainline, and you sold it. YOU had an opportunity to keep 86 seats at mainline, and you sold it.

But somehow in your mind this is all the fault of those greedy, SJS-infused regional pilots and a failure of leadership at ALPA National? What about your own MEC? What about your own pilot group? What about yourself? When are YOU going to take ownership for your decision to sell your scope?

Your attitude of superiority, entitlement, and blamelessness is what an unbelieving crowd simply finds unbelievable....

 

[A350]

OK, so it was my fault that the scope was abrogated....I think not.

I voted NO to every contract that was doled out to the group that had scope concessions. My old MEC was the worst. The pilot group was weak. ALPA national should have seen that and acted. Of course, then we would be discussing how the mainline, fat old legacy pilots kept you down.

In many cases, we didn't sell anything. It was jammed down our throats, either in BK or otherwise. The problem was there was a readily available supply of SJS infused guys (your words, not mine) and ALPA national supplied contracts and union pilots to do the work.

No superiority complex here....I just won't stand here and let you tell me how I need to blame myself for the demise of my career. I did what I could. The problem is the Association is set up to fail. When you come to that realization, only then can meaningful change occur and then the past can be prevented from occurring again and again and again.

A350

 

[PCL_128]

OK, so it was my fault that the scope was abrogated....I think not.

Not you specifically, but mainline pilots in general, yes.

Of course, then we would be discussing how the mainline, fat old legacy pilots kept you down.

Very few regional pilots are in favor of the outsourcing that has taken place. Yes, a few guys like the RJDC clowns want to see more and more scope disappear, but the majority of regional pilots wanted to see you keep your scope language so they could get out of the regionals. It was rare that I flew with an FO who wanted to see bigger airplanes outsourced to the regionals.

 

[Turtlesfly]

PCL - the demise is thanks to greedy management, not the mainline pilots. They were just the means to the end that Mgmt wanted

 

[PCL_128]

PCL - the demise is thanks to greedy management, not the mainline pilots. They were just the means to the end that Mgmt wanted

None of it happened without the willing cooperation of the mainline pilots. If none of you are willing to admit fault, then we'll never prevent the same mistakes from happening in the future. You can't learn from history if you don't draw the correct conclusions from it.

 

[Turtlesfly]

None of it happened without the willing cooperation of the mainline pilots. If none of you are willing to admit fault, then we'll never prevent the same mistakes from happening in the future. You can't learn from history if you don't draw the correct conclusions from it.

True, but that's like saying that the guys in the World Trade Centers willingly jumped to their death when the building was on fire. Well, they chose to do it, but it was becasue they were going to get burned if they didn't.

 

[PCL_128]

True, but that's like saying that the guys in the World Trade Centers willingly jumped to their death when the building was on fire. Well, they chose to do it, but it was becasue they were going to get burned if they didn't.

Then how do you account for scope concessions pre-9/11? Remember, this is only the latest iteration of a problem that's been going on since the EAL pilots gave up "Eastern Express" flying in the 80s. The first RJ arrived in DAL colors in the early 90s. There were 70-seat CRJs flying around long before 9/11. AWAC was flying 100-seat BAe-146s for UAL before 9/11. Mainline pilots can't hide behind 9/11 and bankruptcy to account for this monumental mistake. It may have gotten worse after 9/11, but the problem never would have existed in the first place if mainline pilots hadn't given up scope for two decades previously. Once you've given management an inch, they're going to want a mile.

 

[TurboAWD]

The union is worthless because the leadership will never say no to any contract, no matter what the consequences to the membership.

Do you mainline guys not get to vote on your contracts?

And as for your "it's RJ pilots fault" BS:

ALL OUTSOURCED JET JOBS WERE VOTED AWAY BY MAINLINE PILOTS!!!

RJ pilots may be fighting amongs themselves for lowest RJ pay, but none of them would be flying anything but props if you guys hadn't let it go. And then kept letting it go by voting away bigger and bigger aircraft. I should be complaining to YOU for wrecking MY career, if anything.

Thanks pal,

Turbo

 

[siucavflight]

Turbo, fantastic post.
Yeah A350, thanks for ruining our careers!

 

[A350]

Don't thank me....I voted NO.

If you had a union looking out for your career....it may not have happened the way it did.

Not only did it put a hurt on my career, it did the same to you as well. Now we live with the consequences.

A350

 

[TurboAWD]

Thanks for voting NO.

Although (and I am not talking about you), isn't it funny how after the fact everyone voted no?

As far as the Union thing, if the pilots didn't want the scope relief, they should have voted no. If they didn't think the MEC was representing them well, they should have replaced them. "The Union" is made up of pilots, and only pilots can give it direction and make things happen

As far as "National" not allowing crappy contracts that degrade the profession, I'm all for that. But looked what happened when the East guys didn't like what occurred: They want to take their ball and go home. Funny how there wasn't such outrage at the release of scope or even the bankruptcy contract.

Turbo

 

[arthompson]

AWAC was flying 100-seat BAe-146s for UAL before 9/11. quote]

This is not a fair comparison. As a former AWAC employee let me comment. ALL AWAC routes for UAL in the 146 pre 9/11 were routes operated by Air Wis before the buy out by United, UAL then spun off the company minus the slots that UAL aquired from ZW @ ORD. For many years all ZW had were the 146's and they were scoped out of any growth. The United Express "brand" came to UAX as part of the buy out by UAL, prior to that all the routes were code share, sold by ZW operated in ZW colors by ZW crews.

I don't know if ALPA was involved in the grievance, however the AFA was awarded an abritation for not being able to bid ZW routes while ZW was a wholey owned.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

A350-

Welcome to democracy.... you voted no, but as a member of a democratic organization, you did in the end vote yes.

Also, keep in mind, that the legacy pilots control ALPA thru democracy. You have more votes than the regional guys and you can always win thru votes.

A huge problem is the DAL, UAL, NWA, AAA, CAL pilot groups via thier MEC's act like warring faction tribes. Iraq has a better chance of peace after the US leaves than your MEC's do of working together. Until the MEC's starting thinking about the profession instead of themselves we will continue to suffer. The National election at the last BOD is a prime example. Pathetic and disgusting...

One of the many problems of this? Membership apathy. Until the legacy guys start taking repsonsibilites for this profession there will always be issues with scope and the regional guys.

If management are the parents (the with the money and operational control) then the legacy pilots are the 17 year olds and the regional guys are the 9 year olds. Now when Mom and Dad come home and want an explanation for the mess, the 17 year olds are blaming the 9 year olds.

ALPA's big problem is they condition every member to be an indepependant contractor. And ALPA is going to be thier personal advocate....

The legacy guys have the votes and power..... use it.

 

[John Pennekamp]

You regional guys just don't get it. You cost ALPA far more than you'll ever pay in!!! You hear that giant sucking sound? That's the sound of the regional ALPA carriers sucking all of the dues income from the legacy carriers who actually pay for the ALPA services that you use. If ALPA was "all about the money" as you say, then ALPA would dump every regional airline and only focus on the legacies. There's no money to be made in representing regional pilot groups.

That's the most asinine thing I've ever read from you. YOU were a fricking regional pilot just a few months ago. Now you're all high and mighty because you bailed out to Critter? You're not even an ALPA member any more. You have no dog in this fight anymore. Whatever!

 

[PCL_128]

That's the most asinine thing I've ever read from you. YOU were a fricking regional pilot just a few months ago. Now you're all high and mighty because you bailed out to Critter?

I've been consistent the entire time, John. I've always said that regionals should be scoped out as much as possible. When I was a rep, I posted many times about how ALPA spends far more money on the regionals than it ever takes in. The fact that I'm at "Critter" has nothing to do with my opinions on this.

You're not even an ALPA member any more. You have no dog in this fight anymore. Whatever!

Every pilot, even non-union pilots, have a dog in this fight. What happens at one company affects every other company. What happens within ALPA affects the entire industry, including the non-ALPA carriers.

 

[John Pennekamp]

First, there's no such thing as an "ALPA operations manual."

Yes there is, it's called the Admin manual. And Section 40 of it contains ALPA's guidelines for collective bargaining. This is the section that should read nothing over 70 seats unless it's flown by mainline. This lack of language is what could allow Mesa to bargain for A320s and Prater would be sued out of existence if he refused to sign it, absent a Section 40 prohibition. And all it would take is a BOD or EC action to fix this.

 

[PCL_128]

Yes there is, it's called the Admin manual.

Like I said, not called the "operations manual."

And Section 40 of it contains ALPA's guidelines for collective bargaining. This is the section that should read nothing over 70 seats unless it's flown by mainline. This lack of language is what could allow Mesa to bargain for A320s and Prater would be sued out of existence if he refused to sign it, absent a Section 40 prohibition. And all it would take is a BOD or EC action to fix this.

You're ignoring the very first line of Section 40, Part 5, John (emphasis added):

In the negotiation of agreements, every reasonable effort shall be made to achieve and maintain the following:
​

Section 40 is just a guideline of what to strive for, but ALPA doesn't require you to stick to it. I guarantee I could point out a few sections of the ASA agreement that don't comply with the guidelines in Section 40. Every contract has one or two items that are out of compliance. ALPA has never had minimum CBA guidelines, and it probably never will.

 

[John Pennekamp]

ALPA has never had minimum CBA guidelines, and it probably never will.

And therein lies the problem.

 

[PCL_128]

And therein lies the problem.

I agree with you. But good luck trying to force some of these mainline MECs to go along with minimum guidelines. That's the biggest problem with ALPA, and it drove Duane absolutely nuts: everyone wants to blame ALPA National for their problems, but no one wants to give National any real power. Dave Behnke's original idea of separate MECs that deal with their own local issues and negotiate their own contracts is the best way, but there's no reason that certain guidelines on big issues like scope can't be set by National. The problem is getting the MECs to cede some power to National.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

And therein lies the problem.

I agree with you. But good luck trying to force some of these mainline MECs to go along with minimum guidelines. That's the biggest problem with ALPA, and it drove Duane absolutely nuts: everyone wants to blame ALPA National for their problems, but no one wants to give National any real power. Dave Behnke's original idea of separate MECs that deal with their own local issues and negotiate their own contracts is the best way, but there's no reason that certain guidelines on big issues like scope can't be set by National. The problem is getting the MECs to cede some power to National.

John.... let's look at a priority list of power.

1. Gov't
2. Corp America
3. Labor

You want ALPA to set minimum CBA guidelines? What are they willing to negotiate for it? If ALPA says 'min pay' then management says 'max pay'.

You debate like ALPA is secretly sabatoging its own members. Well? Maybe the members have poor expectation? Maybe they don't understand how its works. Which is surprising.. Cause most ALPA members are die hard GOP types. They are all about the free market economy... whoever is better, faster, cheaper......

But yet when they get hammered in the market place they cry for ALPA to install artifical market barriers and protections... all while voting for pro management politicians and not giving to the PAC.

Your reply?

 

[John Pennekamp]

Maybe the members have poor expectation? Maybe they don't understand how its works. Which is surprising.. Cause most ALPA members are die hard GOP types. They are all about the free market economy... whoever is better, faster, cheaper......

But yet when they get hammered in the market place they cry for ALPA to install artifical market barriers and protections... all while voting for pro management politicians and not giving to the PAC.

Your reply?

I couldn't have said it better myself. 95% of ALPA pilots are total hypocrites. They vote with their wallet for the very candidates who end up giving favors to large corporations. Then the corporations turn around and use the newly given powers on the employees, and suddenly they whine how the union should have protected them.

At least I can honestly say I put my money where my mouth is and vote for the candidates who will further my career the most. Both in the government and in the union.

Now how to fix this? You can't. Dave Behnke and the founders blew it and you can't put the genie back in the bottle after 75 years. We will always be a loose association with big mouths and very little power in the grand scheme. Which is why guys like me that once thought they'd "fix the union" have retired from politics and become one of the rank and file again. You'll realize this one day too.

 

[PCL_128]

Which is why guys like me that once thought they'd "fix the union" have retired from politics and become one of the rank and file again. You'll realize this one day too.

He's been doing ALPA work for a lot longer than you and I combined. If he hasn't given up yet, then I don't think he's going to.