well that was quick.....

[imacdog]

But it saved your company money, YIP! Think about the costs involved with your company retraining a bunch of Falcon pilots to fly the DC-9. Pure management brilliance. How can you be against the company saving money in one instance and for it an another? Is reality too harsh for you in this instance?

 

[pilotyip]

But it saved your company money, YIP! Think about the costs involved with your company retraining a bunch of Falcon pilots to fly the DC-9. Pure management brilliance. How can you be against the company saving money in one instance and for it an another? Is reality too harsh for you in this instance?

But I proved it did not save money, it cost them more because of associated turnover costs. That was the whole thing behind, raising pay, honoring days off, no junior manning, all the things we put in place to reduce turnover. And it worked, in 1999 before these changes we had an annual turnover of nearing 50%, training costs approached $1.5 M per year for an airline with less than 100 pilots. Turnover dropped drastically and the training budget moved well under $500K/yr. But now those guys who run the company, not me, want to go back top the "good ole days". We were the best of bottom feeders and that was the goal. A place to come stay 3-5 years and then go places like SWA, NJ, FedEx, etc. Most people look back at their JUS days with good memories.

 

[imacdog]

Treating pilots well benefits the company? Stop talking reality YIP, this is a pilot board! Don't you know things like fair treatment, good pay, and benefits of seniority are silly little cost unit (pilot) dreams? Now let's go save the comany some money! Motel 6 for all!

 

[G4dude]

Stop that! this is FI, we do not deal in reality on this site, only in the fantasy world of ferry god-mothers who give us anything we want, because we want it.

Darn, I forgot! The union landscape is littered with children who stamp their little feet and cry piteously, insisting on getting what they want, and Devil take the hindmost.

 

[G4dude]

If pilots don't extend then the company would be forced to negotiate something that works. No one is saying the company doesn't need / require / deserve relief on scheduling the GV crews. This is something that could be done in short order. The rub is the company would rather negotiate with individual pilots outside the scope of the CBA. I find it highly likely the company would find financial and operational benefit from negotiating scheduling relief. They would rather divide the pilot group. Given the current makeup of both sides, NJA is going to sink if this keeps up.

I think the pilot group is divided between the union types and the non union types. This divide existed long before integration. It reflects a genuine difference of opinion about how companies and economies and labor relations work in the real world. Thanks for the thoughtful post, though. No bombast, just sober observations, making for good conversation.

 

[G4dude]

Exactly...so here's the million dollar question: Why on Earth are 95% of our GIV pilots Captains? Talk about overstaffing! Our GIV overhead is approximately double what it should be due to a near 100% PIC staffing "good ol boys" club decision that was made by the EMT. If they were really worried about saving money and being competitive, they would exercise their contractual rights within the CBA, announce the fleet in disposal status, and DOWNGRADE 40% of these incredibly junior pilots immediately. Total savings...over $5 Million annually. That should cut down on the "featherbedding".

I think, to the company's credit, they did not do that to the PICs, although it would have been justified, in my opinion. I hadn't thought of this, actually.

 

[NachoMamma]

I think, to the company's credit, they did not do that to the PICs, although it would have been justified, in my opinion. I hadn't thought of this, actually.

My point is the NJI wrote the book on featherbedding their jobs. I find it ironic that one of their own is on here criticizing the union for doing the same thing.

 

[G4dude]

My point is the NJI wrote the book on featherbedding their jobs. I find it ironic that one of their own is on here criticizing the union for doing the same thing.

We didn't featherbed. We are short of SICs because of the furloughs.

 

[NachoMamma]

We didn't featherbed. We are short of SICs because of the furloughs.

Not even remotely true...the ratio was made intentionally lopsided far BEFORE the furloughs. There are a couple of threads about this on the NJ message boards. You should try doing some research sometime...you might learn something.

 

[fischman]

We didn't featherbed. We are short of SICs because of the furloughs.

NJI had a rash of upgrades before the integration. However, and perhaps you or Gutshot can clarify, the way upgrades went over there were different. Something to do with finishing ground and finishing IOE?

 

[gutshotdraw]

In the old days, when it was time to upgrade, an SIC would go to Hilton Head for five days of "Captain Charm School." Then they would come back a week later for a recurrent cycle in the sim with a Standards Captain observing the ride. Providing that went ok, the pilot would start wearing four stripes and would go back on the line awaiting a line check but flew as SIC.

Once the line check was completed (several days and a minimum of 6 legs), the pilot was signed off as a "Captain-qualified First Officer" but DID NOT receive their pay bump and did not act as PIC until the next delivery or until the next GIV PIC moved up to the GV. In my case, I finished my line check in September but didn't get paid as a PIC until late December. Which also became my new anniversary date for pay raises (summer original DOH). There's more to BOTH of those stories.

Now, follow along here. As to Nacho's point, when the furlough occurred (pre-integration BTW), NJI was forced to furlough nearly 50 FO's despite the entire division being right-sized in comparison to NJA. Nearly all were in the GV. That left the GV woefully short-staffed. At the time, none of the crossover FO's had fulfilled their seat lock. So, the company moved a bunch of NJI GIV Captains over to the GV which badly skewed the PIC/SIC ratio in that fleet.

That left a huge shortage of PIC's in the GIV. Per the terms of the LOA, 1/3 of those spots would be filled by NJA (which they were) and the remainder by native NJI F/O's. Voila, you have a bunch of relatively junior GIV PIC's.

Despite the conspiracy theories of the black helicopter crowd, that is why it happened the way it happened. But that's okay. They'll "get even" with the "Dirty Thirty" when the GIV fleet displaces and the junior PIC's have to go jerk gear in a Phenom. Or they go find a better job in a Fortune 500 flight department. Or go back to their airline gig. Both of which have already happened.

 

[BentOver]

Or they go find a better job in a Fortune 500 flight department. Or go back to their airline gig. Both of which have already happened.

Luckily they have one of the most sought after types and are current. There have been a ton of jobs that require a Gulfstream type and currency. For those that choose to head to a fortune 500 place, they should have plenty of opportunities if they wish.

Can't say that I don't look forward to hearing about guys jumping ship and heading elsewhere. (not GLC guys, everyone in general.)

 

[gutshotdraw]

It's happening Bent. Three of our senior GV guys just left to go fly for a former client, I heard about the two Excel FO's going to be A320 Captains at Air Asia, and two GIV PIC's I know are going to take their major airline recall. I'm sure there are more.

 

[fischman]

I know the XL FO's that went to Asia. Both were FANTASTIC. I hated to see them go, but understood.

 

[gutshotdraw]

I don't blame them Fisch. If I were below 1500 in seniority, I'd be looking too. Of course, I'm always listening just in case...

 

[BentOver]

I know the XL FO's that went to Asia. Both were FANTASTIC. I hated to see them go, but understood.

To add onto that... NJA is going to lose probably some of the most experienced SIC's that NJA ever saw... Not a rag on any of the PIC's there, but the experience of those that were hired from say '05 and beyond (just a generalization) had, in general, a wealth of airline/corporate experience. Versus a low time new hire back in the day who may have viewed NJA as a stepping stone at first.


"If" this 121 shortage does happen, I'd expect (or hope) on even higher attrition than is being predicted.

 

[fischman]

I don't blame them Fisch. If I were below 1500 in seniority, I'd be looking too. Of course, I'm always listening just in case...

I know what you mean. I'm part of that demographic.

 

[acaTerry]

Now, having RTS own and run us again? I could get behind that notion!

Don't excite yourself...it's like hoping for an airline flight that gets you home before 9:30 pm. Just won't happen, but we can all dream. And I'd love it to happen too.

 

[B19 Flyer]

You mean like the IBT taking dues out of my severance pay when my airline went out of business. Then telling that they had no obligation to assist any of us in our job search, you mean that kind of union stuff.

I was actually thinking about the 495 at NJ, but I'll admit.. it's a pretty good example.

All the NJ pilots that weren't furloughed will hop and down and say how great the 495 were treated by the union, but the bottom line is they were still furloughed and put out on the street.

While they are furloughed, nobody else took .05 of a pay cut to help them out. I don't want to hear about donations, etc. I want to know what they did to open the contract in an attempt to save any of the jobs at all. (even a single one!) Typical union crap, the only sacrifice they made are those that were low on the seniority list.

 

[brokeflyer]

yeah sucks dont it. Its sad that a pilot even needs to be in a union at all.