Well G. Dam! SWA considers INTL flying---someday, maybe, hopefully

[ultrarunner]

Tell that to the Mexicans that come to Texas from Mexico. I am sure they would disagree with you.

I'm sure they would...it's all relative. I make it a point to stay away from the places they are extricating themselves from.

But yeah, I see your point.

 

[Hose A. Jiminez]

General,

You keep saying Gary got "creamed" or had his "azz handed to him". How do you figure? This implies that had Gary did not have the power to pull the labor contingency and write a bigger check.

I have a feeling you know full well what really happened: He stood by his word (to labor) and decided it wasnt worth another dollar more. At the end of the day, had he wanted F9, he would have had F9.

 

[iflyhigh72]

damage control

Air Transport World has its say on SW story


1:58 PM Thu, Sep 17, 2009 | Permalink
Terry Maxon/Reporter Bio | E-mail | News tips On Wednesday, there was a kerfuffle over what Southwest Airlines manager Lee Lipton said at a Beijing route conference this week. Air Transport World reported that Lipton said Southwest "plans to open international routes to Europe and South America, although so far there is 'no timetable' for the move."
Southwest put out a statement to reiterate it had no immediate international plans beyond its announced intention to serve near-international markets through code-share partners Volaris and WestJet Airlines.
ATW later amended the online story to move down Europe and South America, but the text was essentially the same. Here's today's story.
But what really got ATW's attention Wednesday was a Southwest spokesman's claim to us that Lipton never talked to the reporter and had no idea where the story came from.
In retrospect, ATW sees two issues. One, did the original headline go too far? Maybe, and ATW changed it. Second, did Lipton know he was talking to an ATW reporter? That would explain why he told HQs he didn't talk to the reporter.
In any case ATW wants the record set straight: The reporter did talk to the Southwest executive, and the text did accurately reflect what Lipton said.
"In hindsight, maybe the original headline on Wednesday's story promised more than the text delivered," said ATW Senior Editor Brian Straus, "but we stand by the accuracy of our reporting and point to the lack of contradiction between Southwest's subsequent statement and Lee Lipton's original comments."

 

[GuppyWN]

Well considering that the "new" TA has allows WN pilots to put the gabosh on far international codeshare.......... sounds like Gary may have to say pretty please.

Gup

 

[doh]

When I started flying, Delta was strictly a domestic airline. I remember when they first came to NATCO. The Northwest pilots managed, despite the complete lack of skills on the part of their Delta students, to teach them how to cross the north Atlantic. Southwest will not have a problem.

 

[General Lee]

General,

You keep saying Gary got "creamed" or had his "azz handed to him". How do you figure? This implies that had Gary did not have the power to pull the labor contingency and write a bigger check.

I have a feeling you know full well what really happened: He stood by his word (to labor) and decided it wasnt worth another dollar more. At the end of the day, had he wanted F9, he would have had F9.

Hose,

Many analysts think Kelly got creamed, or just wasn't up to the task. Here is an article from the Dallas Morning News (in LUV territory), and see what they thought:

By ERIC TORBENSON / The Dallas Morning News

A pilot labor deal for Southwest Airlines Co. might not have made a winning difference in its bid for the assets of bankrupt Frontier Airlines.
It's true that Southwest's pilots couldn't broker an agreement with Frontier's union, causing the Dallas-based airline to withdraw its $174 million bid late Thursday. That made Republic Airways Group Inc. the default winner.
But pilot opposition was only one of several reasons the deal fell apart in the 11th hour. Frontier management and creditors had other problems with Southwest's offer. And there were things they liked more about Republic.
Frontier officials talked publicly Friday about the two offers and their decision process. Southwest officials wouldn't comment beyond a statement issued Thursday evening.
Frontier executives said they liked Republic's ability to close its deal quickly and its commitment to expand Frontier's fleet of Airbus planes. The fact that Republic sweetened its offer at the last minute also helped, Frontier managers said Friday. It had originally bid $108.8 million, but Frontier didn't release the amount of the winning offer.
"I think both parties had a substantial chance of winning," said Sean Menke, Frontier's chief executive, in a conference call. However, Republic's ability to get Frontier out of bankruptcy protection by next month and its vision to keep Frontier as its own airline were significant factors, he said.
Southwest's offer probably would have triggered antitrust concerns from the Department of Justice, and a full competitive review could have taken four to six months, Menke said. Republic has already received antitrust approval to buy Frontier.
Also, Southwest's plan to drop 11 Airbus planes from Frontier's fleet of 51 would have delayed the bankruptcy case and added extra costs that Republic's bid avoids.

Not apples to apples

Among the biggest misconceptions of the auction process was the price tag. Southwest's $174 million offer – some details of which were not made public until Friday – included merger-related costs that never would have found their way to Frontier's creditors. It included a series of extra charges to pay off aircraft lessors and other creditors as well as money for Republic's claim against the Frontier bankruptcy and a termination fee for Republic, an Indianapolis-based airline holding company.
"These were not apples-to-apples comparisons," said Ted Christie, Frontier's chief financial officer.
Indeed, the bids were just a few million dollars apart in total value initially, despite the different totals. Southwest's bid would have paid creditors at a rate of 12 cents on the dollar; Republic's at 9 cents.
But Republic sweetened its offer late in the game, effectively pushing the amount of money creditors received to 19 cents on the dollar by agreeing to accept less money for its claims.

Southwest 'naive'


Critics who watched the process closely said Southwest's bid wasn't ready for prime time. Southwest executives "seemed not to understand the dynamics of the process or the obvious bottlenecks and complexities involved," said industry consultant Mo Garfinkle of Arlington, Va. Southwest "was naive and it didn't know it. It underestimated Republic and its talented management team, and it overestimated the reception to a Southwest bid, especially by the Frontier stakeholders."
Southwest withdrew its bid Thursday evening when the pilots' unions of the two airlines could not reach agreements before the auction process, as was required by Southwest's offer. The offer would have given pilots more pay, but kept them at the bottom of the seniority list.
In a note to members Friday, Carl Kuwitzky, president of Southwest's pilots' union, said he applauded Southwest chairman Gary Kelly for sticking to a promise to have the labor settlement a condition of the bid. "I called Gary last night to personally thank him, and he shared a closing thought that I agree with – 'It was not meant to be.' "
Kuwitzky said his team had 3 ½ hours Wednesday to negotiate an agreement that typically would take months. He had his doubts that Frontier pilots "had any intention of ever reaching an agreement" with Southwest and said Frontier's union never responded to calls for more talks Thursday.
Picking the winner was up to Menke, his executives and Frontier's board of directors after they consulted with Frontier's creditors committee. Their obligation was to keep the bidders informed about their status and to work with the trailing bidder to raise their offer. "The whole process was very cordial," he said. "Southwest was very professional."
For Frontier, the focus turns to growing its fleet and emerging from bankruptcy protection, which it said is possible by Sept. 17. Frontier was forced into bankruptcy in April 2008, when its credit card processor changed the terms on ticket sales and tied up substantial amounts of its cash.

Battle for Denver

The Denver air market is no more appealing for three airlines than when Frontier filed for Chapter 11; Southwest continues to add to its presence, though analysts say the carrier is losing money on its fast-growing Denver operations, an assessment Menke agrees with. "They're having some difficulty here," he said, adding that he believes incumbent carrier United is also losing money in Denver and will cede more market share.
Frontier said its lower costs and brand loyalty will help it survive in Denver. Frontier believes its operating costs are lower than Southwest's and substantially lower than United's. "We will continue to compete very, very vigorously," Menke said.
Airline financial analysts such as Vaughn Cordle of AirlineForecasts LLC expect a brutal war of attrition in Denver. Republic-controlled Frontier is unlikely to win unless Republic replaces some of Frontier's Airbus aircraft with its own regional jets flown by pilots making substantially less than what Frontier pilots are paid.
He estimates that Frontier's pilots cost the carrier $170 an hour in wages and benefits, compared with $99 an hour for Republic's regional jet pilots; Southwest's pilots cost $290 an hour, he estimates.
Cordle said that although Southwest pilots make more, the carrier can absorb deep losses in Denver that Frontier cannot.
Cutting pilot costs "is the only way Republic's Frontier survives," he said Friday, noting that Republic is in the process of switching out bigger planes for smaller ones with Midwest Airlines, the Milwaukee-based carrier that Republic officially bought July 31. Investors had bid up Southwest's shares 20 percent since July 30, when the airline announced its intention to bid on Frontier. Southwest shares fell 19 cents to $9.08 Friday, while Republic's shares rose 60 cents to $6.60.



Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[SELFloadingCRGO]

That's your proof that Gary got "creamed"? A few analysts that think they have a bead on the airline industry? Whatever makes you sleep better Gen...



SLC

 

[mt2]

So, let me get this straight -- we're all supposed to buy, as truth, what a lawyer type named Mo says ?? Good one, "Believe none of what you hear and half of what you see."

 

[Whataburger]

Two things that Delta has more experience than us in:

1. Bankruptcy

2. Int'l flying

 

[General Lee]

That's your proof that Gary got "creamed"? A few analysts that think they have a bead on the airline industry? Whatever makes you sleep better Gen...



SLC

Gary made a promise he probably wishes he could have taken back with his pilots, and then made a lowball offer. Yeah, I am wrong. What has he now accomplished? He settled a TA with you guys, but now will lose more in DEN, and not dominate, which could have helped you get your TA anyway. Wow, and you can't see it too? He and you lost out on dominance. And I guess a FEW analysts are wrong, and you and other SWA pilots are right..... whatever to feed your huge ego, again. Hey, that staple was a great offer.....



Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Two things that Delta has more experience than us in:

1. Bankruptcy

2. Int'l flying

Again, WOW. Great insight. You guys do have more experience than us in:

1. One airplane type flying forever (boring after 10 years or less)
2. Intra Texas flying, lots of it.
3. 25 minute turns, and running the terminal for food
4. 6 leg days
5. 5 leg days
6. 4 leg days
7. LBB flying
8. ELP flying
9. ISP flying
10. Guys who wanted age 65 (thanks for that again)


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Scope out RJ's]

Two things that Delta has more experience than us in:

1. Bankruptcy

2. Int'l flying

Two things SWA has more experience than us in:

1. PFT

2. Running off the end of runways!

 

[General Lee]

Two things SWA has more experience than us in:

1. PFT

2. Running off the end of runways!

Thank you, I forgot about those....


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[StopNTSing]

Two things SWA has more experience than us in:

1. PFT

2. Running off the end of runways!

Scope, if you really want to keep escalating this pi$$ing contest, there's things far worse than #2 that Delta has more "experience" with. But I'd rather not go there, how about you?

 

[Tanker Clown]

Delta also has a lot more experience in:

1. Taking pay cuts
2. Taking it in the can
3. Airlines within an airline...The JetBlue/AirTran killer....SONG!
4. Russian sub commander outfits
5. Taking pay cuts
6. Rennisance Fairs
7. Dungeons and Dragons
8. Taking pay cuts

 

[Nightrain_080]

Venerial Lee why are you so worried about WN?
DL has had a string of CEO's that ARE horrible. Your attempt at smack on WN is as embarrassing as you getting tired of your friends asking you, "how many bags are free and how many they have to pay for?" Try to stop chugging all those faggot-chino double gizz lattes to stay up late playing on flight info.

 

[Russ]

GL
A number of years ago I used to debate you on the FI forums. You were mostly civil, even found out we were about the same age. I return now to see your acting like a 19 year old.
Isn't it time?

 

[redflyer65]

I agree with Russ. Very sad.

 

[General Lee]

Venerial Lee why are you so worried about WN?
DL has had a string of CEO's that ARE horrible. Your attempt at smack on WN is as embarrassing as you getting tired of your friends asking you, "how many bags are free and how many they have to pay for?" Try to stop chugging all those faggot-chino double gizz lattes to stay up late playing on flight info.

You mean they WERE horrible? I agree mostly. I think our current mangement is pretty good, although I am sure they won't just hand over everything we want in future negotiations. On the business side, I think they are smart and will do a good job.

As far as "smacking" WN, I think some of their pilots, especially on this FI board, are extremely cocky and treated F9 pilots poorly while their negotiations were going on to buy the company. We all know F9 had value (2 bids, not just one), and their offer of a staple only was ridiculous, along with the SWA pilot group justification of a staple. What a slap in the face.

Wait, are you making fun that we charge for bags? That brings in MILLIONS of extra dollars, which we use fighting you. SWA is now charging extra for people who want to board the plane first, which is something they never did before. Things are changing for you too, and you also need to drink some lattes and wake up to your own reality, you will fly the same plane forever, with 25 minute turns, with mulitple legs per day. That doesn't sound fun to me. You can enjoy it, though, and enjoy ELP twice in one day.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

GL
A number of years ago I used to debate you on the FI forums. You were mostly civil, even found out we were about the same age. I return now to see your acting like a 19 year old.
Isn't it time?

Russ,

When I debated you last, SkyWest pilots were doing whatever it took to get growth, even though it hurt the regional industry. I thought that was something important to debate with you. During the possible buyout of F9 by SWA, the SWA pilots on this board overwhelmingly gave an arrogance that was unheard of, and tried to justify a ridiculous offer to staple a group while telling them they were worth nothing. I have given my support to the F9 pilots, not because I personally wouldn't want to be a SWA pilot, but rather because the cause was "right." It was right to slam these particular SWA pilots whose egos are too big for what they bring to the table. This is still an opinion board, and I have a right to my own, and I bring good debate with it. Some people cannot handle it, and decide to leave this board for calmer pastures. Welcome back.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Scope out RJ's]

Delta also has a lot more experience in:

1. Taking pay cuts
2. Taking it in the can
3. Airlines within an airline...The JetBlue/AirTran killer....SONG!
4. Russian sub commander outfits
5. Taking pay cuts
6. Rennisance Fairs
7. Dungeons and Dragons
8. Taking pay cuts

Tanker Clown/Crj567 has the most experience in:

1. Taking in in the can
2. Signing in under various screen names (namely this one and crj567)
3. Taking it in the can
4. Serving coffee
5. Taking it in the can
6. Serving coffee to his superior officers
7. Taking it in the can
8. Working the drive thru at Wendy's
9. Taking it in the can

 

[mt2]

Ah, nevermind.

 

[Whataburger]

Again, WOW. Great insight. You guys do have more experience than us in:

1. One airplane type flying forever (boring after 10 years or less)
2. Intra Texas flying, lots of it.
3. 25 minute turns, and running the terminal for food
4. 6 leg days
5. 5 leg days
6. 4 leg days
7. LBB flying
8. ELP flying
9. ISP flying
10. Guys who wanted age 65 (thanks for that again)


Bye Bye--General Lee

Wow, we finally agree. Everything in this post is true, for the most part.

1. One airplane type, boring? All 121 aircraft become boring. It's a paycheck and an opportunity to fly for 3 days and come home for 4 or more. I hope to never have to study for a type rating ever again. A Cub never becomes boring. If it does, it will whoop your a$$ like Sherman did Atlanta in 1864.

2. Texas flying = easy. Everyone speaks modified English or Spanglish, and we're early all day. A great way to "test" the clacker.

3. We aren't making money at the gate, right?

4. 5. and 6. Never, not so much, and sometimes.

7. and 8. = Hot chicks, twang, Southern Hospitality, Country and/or Western, Mexican food, and WHATABURGER!!!

9. Nice juke box at the bar, other than that, I got nothin'.

10. Lots of old dudes here, they won.

 

[Whataburger]

Two things SWA has more experience than us in:

1. PFT

2. Running off the end of runways!

1. Private thru B737 = paid for. Guilty.

2. Please PM me if you would like to talk about this one.

 

[General Lee]

Wow, we finally agree. Everything in this post is true, for the most part.

1. One airplane type, boring? All 121 aircraft become boring. It's a paycheck and an opportunity to fly for 3 days and come home for 4 or more. I hope to never have to study for a type rating ever again. A Cub never becomes boring. If it does, it will whoop your a$$ like Sherman did Atlanta in 1864.
Oh come on. That is ridiculous. One plane type for the rest of your career would be terrible. You will get complacent and mistakes could be made. It might be good enough for you now, but I bet you will think about it again in 5-10 years, yearning for something different, other than LBB or ELP.


2. Texas flying = easy. Everyone speaks modified English or Spanglish, and we're early all day. A great way to "test" the clacker. Boring, and if you are only doing intra-texas in one day, it is easily a multiple leg day.

3. We aren't making money at the gate, right? You have no time at the gate to run for food, either. 25 minutes max.

4. 5. and 6. Never, not so much, and sometimes.

7. and 8. = Hot chicks, twang, Southern Hospitality, Country and/or Western, Mexican food, and WHATABURGER!!! Let me guess, you think Sushi is "bait"?

9. Nice juke box at the bar, other than that, I got nothin'. Do you sing "you've lost that loving feeling" too like Mavrick?

10. Lots of old dudes here, they won. Yes, yes they did.

Above says it all. Ever heard of Variety? You can get it a lot of ways, and it gives your life a stimulus. Sure, you can buy things to give you other stimulus, but when you get bored with one thing and cannot change it, things begin to atrophy. Your brain will atrophy when you reach the 200 landings in ELP in one year. You are almost there, and you have 20 more years to do the same. That doesn't sound fun. But, the money is good....and if you do enjoy it now, maybe that will continue. I hope it does for you.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Russ]

GL
Nothing wrong with a robust, emotional debate. It's the grade school stuff I disagree with. I'm the first to admit you're baited quite a bit. You however seem to nurture an environment that encourages it.

 

[General Lee]

GL
Nothing wrong with a robust, emotional debate. It's the grade school stuff I disagree with. I'm the first to admit you're baited quite a bit. You however seem to nurture an environment that encourages it.

What can I say Russ? I enjoy a good debate and everything that comes with it. I can handle the slams, and I can also give them back. I guess you can say I am SLAMTASTIC.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Whataburger]

Above says it all. Ever heard of Variety? You can get it a lot of ways, and it gives your life a stimulus. Sure, you can buy things to give you other stimulus, but when you get bored with one thing and cannot change it, things begin to atrophy.
Bye Bye--General Lee

I get my variety outside the cockpit. My airline job pays the bills, and I have a good time doing it. What I do on my 17-20 days off a month is what gives my life variety. It's a good job, for now. But, still a job. Ok, we added autothrottles to our aircraft to bring them up to 1980s technology = Variety. Unless you're a DJ at a Gentleman's club, a job is a job and most of them will get boring.

 

[walkthasky]

Wait, are you making fun that we charge for bags? That brings in MILLIONS of extra dollars, which we use fighting you. SWA is now charging extra for people who want to board the plane first, which is something they never did before. Things are changing for you too, and you also need to drink some lattes and wake up to your own reality, you will fly the same plane forever, with 25 minute turns, with mulitple legs per day. That doesn't sound fun to me. You can enjoy it, though, and enjoy ELP twice in one day.


Bye Bye--General Lee

woah woah woah, back the train up a lil. Were "offering" a priority boarding, and you guys are "charging" for a bag. Last time I checked people are usually carrying bags, so its almost "forced" upon the pax, almost. If you dont want to board early, then dont, but to compare that to, "you dont have to bring your bag" ? Thats just apples and oranges dude. Things are changing, I wont disagree with you there, and I will enjoy ELP

 

[Whataburger]

If I were in a bar and had to sing a song from the "Top Gun" soundtrack, I would sing "Take My Breath Away" before I sung the gay song.