Well G. Dam! SWA considers INTL flying---someday, maybe, hopefully

[General Lee]

Nothing but a big rumor.

AA767AV8TOR

Read on:

http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2009/09/southwest-airlines-to-europe-s.html

Southwest Airlines to Europe, South America? Not true, Southwest says

9:40 AM Wed, Sep 16, 2009

Terry Maxon/Reporter

Air Transport World has quite a scoop Wednesday out of Beijing, quoting a Southwest Airlines manager as saying the carrier has plans to start service to Europe and South America.

To quote its online story, which also showed up as the number one item on the Air Transport Association's daily SmartBrief collection of Wednesday's media stories:

"Southwest Airlines plans to open international routes to Europe and South America, although so far there is 'no timetable' for the move, Director-Network Strategic Planning Lee Lipton told ATWOnline at the World Route Development Forum in Beijing.

But there's a problem. A Southwest spokesman says unequivocably that "there's no truth to it. Lee Lipton was very surprised to read it. He had no discussion with that reporter. He's never said those things."

Well, dang. As a reporter, one wonders about the disconnect. The Air Transport World certainly didn't make it all up. Maybe something was said as a hypothetical, and it became a certainty in the story.

Like Sen. Snort said in a long ago "Grin and Bear It" comic strip: "Yeah, I said it, but not in headlines that big!"

UPDATE: Southwest spokesman Brad Hawkins elaborated on the story and Southwest's intentions this afternoon.

"Flying long-haul, meaning beyond Canada, Mexico, Caribbean or Hawaii, does not fit into our current plans, and we are not actively considering it at all," Hawkins said.

It could happen someday," he added. "But I think there will be others doing so long before we even seriously contemplate such an operation."

Hawkins said Southwest is taking a market-based approach to its international strategy.

"That means we are studying opportunities in many parts of the world in much the same way we do in the U.S.," he said.

After Southwest decides if it wants to get into a market, the next question is whether it should do the flying itself or through a partner.

"For now, the only opportunities we are considering for our own flying are those that can be reached -- and make sense -- with our current fleet of 737s," he said.

Southwest will prioritize potential markets from a number of factors, such as how much revenue the markets might bring, how they tie into Southwest's domestic strategy and how easy they can be accessed.

"Given how early we are at developing our codeshares, the 'ease of access' question is a big one for any place outside North America, even though we expect that to be a partnership too," Hawkins said.

Southwest chairman, president and CEO Gary Kelly has been saying that Southwest may begin its own international service as early as 2011, while adding that is in no way certain.

Back in February, Kelly talked to us about Southwest's intent to fly its own airplanes on international routes. Said Kelly:

"I would guess it's within five years. But we have a long way to go before we'll be ready to make that judgment.

"There are just some markets that don't make sense for us. Either the technology required to serve a market or the business needs of that market are such that it doesn't fit our operating style, i.e. it's a smaller airplane or a bigger airplane. Right now, we don't want to deviate from our single aircraft type.

"Then there are other market dynamics, for example, in the Caribbean or could be Mexico or Canada for that matter, where ... Allegiant Air for example flies several times per week between city pairs. Well, that's not Southwest Airlines.

"We just have to continue to search for markets that meet our operating style, where we can be profitable and at the same time simultaneously we are trying to evolve our operating style so we are more flexible and can do more things."

Ooooooooh SNAP!


Bye Bye----General Lee

 

[Patriot328]

it would be bit more than an FOM update before the let ya'll saddle up for EHAM, oh sorry, that's Amsterdam.

I wonder how fast they could taxi to the gate after clearing 18R. They'd probably get airborne again.

 

[Headfake14]

This has been talked about, wrote about, and kicked around for the last 3 years. What rock did you just crawl out from under?

...easy Tiger. I never heard or read about it...nor did any SWA buddies mention it in the past.

What I'm saying is...why would ANY carrier say..."...we are THINKING about doing this...". Especially something that big. Anyone would say they are thinking about changing snacks, on-board internet, uniform refresh. But to come out and say, "HEY, attention competition, we are thinking about someday flying twin isles!"....someone probably overheard a conversation and shop talk.

 

[ultrarunner]

Europe? South America? You've got to kidding!!! We're talking about an airline based in Texas that doesn't even fly to Mexico.

Texas IS Mexico!

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Tell that to the Mexicans that come to Texas from Mexico. I am sure they would disagree with you.

 

[Tripower455]

The senior cadre of SWA pilots will be like a teenage goofballs first time trying to fly 787's int'l. The junior SWA pilot cadre with glass and int'l experience will compensate nicely for grandpa's lacking.... (oops..did I say that outloud)

It'll be just like the Blueballers compensating for the RDs back in '91.......... Right GL? :beer:

 

[vtwo]

Why Expand SWA

Why expand Swa?
They have already Purchased the ATA certificate. It came with LGA slots,
and also this Nice little thing called MNPS, ETOPS for the 737.
They just need to ramp up the training and finish the proving runs.
Or they Just sign another code Share and let others worry about all those pesky rules and such.
While their Bottom Line Increases the Size of the company does not. Either way they win.
The employee's are last. Oh and what is to stop them from Code Sharing with Commuter airline or 2 as long as their at it. They already did it once.

 

[XR650R]

Disregard... SWA published a correction in on their internal employee website that stated the long range international flying is NOT being considered at this point....wimps

 

[vtwo]

AH, the old Misdirection play,
Sound like they had an internal leak with the playbook and now come damage control. Zig then Zag, Which way are we going to go?

 

[jhill]

09-17-09 | Clarification on International Plans
An industry trade publication recently misstated that Southwest was targeting Europe and South America. So we wanted to set the record straight: Southwest Airlines does not have any plans to fly distant, longhaul international flights at this time or in the near future. Our immediate focus is on developing our previously announced codeshare partnerships with WestJet and Volaris, and we have expressed interest in exploring near-international markets, including Mexico, Canada, and the Caribbean, with our own fleet. While we can’t rule out the possibility in the future, we are not actively considering service to distant international markets with our own aircraft.

 

[ultrarunner]

Tell that to the Mexicans that come to Texas from Mexico. I am sure they would disagree with you.

I'm sure they would...it's all relative. I make it a point to stay away from the places they are extricating themselves from.

But yeah, I see your point.

 

[Hose A. Jiminez]

General,

You keep saying Gary got "creamed" or had his "azz handed to him". How do you figure? This implies that had Gary did not have the power to pull the labor contingency and write a bigger check.

I have a feeling you know full well what really happened: He stood by his word (to labor) and decided it wasnt worth another dollar more. At the end of the day, had he wanted F9, he would have had F9.

 

[iflyhigh72]

damage control

Air Transport World has its say on SW story


1:58 PM Thu, Sep 17, 2009 | Permalink
Terry Maxon/Reporter Bio | E-mail | News tips On Wednesday, there was a kerfuffle over what Southwest Airlines manager Lee Lipton said at a Beijing route conference this week. Air Transport World reported that Lipton said Southwest "plans to open international routes to Europe and South America, although so far there is 'no timetable' for the move."
Southwest put out a statement to reiterate it had no immediate international plans beyond its announced intention to serve near-international markets through code-share partners Volaris and WestJet Airlines.
ATW later amended the online story to move down Europe and South America, but the text was essentially the same. Here's today's story.
But what really got ATW's attention Wednesday was a Southwest spokesman's claim to us that Lipton never talked to the reporter and had no idea where the story came from.
In retrospect, ATW sees two issues. One, did the original headline go too far? Maybe, and ATW changed it. Second, did Lipton know he was talking to an ATW reporter? That would explain why he told HQs he didn't talk to the reporter.
In any case ATW wants the record set straight: The reporter did talk to the Southwest executive, and the text did accurately reflect what Lipton said.
"In hindsight, maybe the original headline on Wednesday's story promised more than the text delivered," said ATW Senior Editor Brian Straus, "but we stand by the accuracy of our reporting and point to the lack of contradiction between Southwest's subsequent statement and Lee Lipton's original comments."

 

[GuppyWN]

Well considering that the "new" TA has allows WN pilots to put the gabosh on far international codeshare.......... sounds like Gary may have to say pretty please.

Gup

 

[doh]

When I started flying, Delta was strictly a domestic airline. I remember when they first came to NATCO. The Northwest pilots managed, despite the complete lack of skills on the part of their Delta students, to teach them how to cross the north Atlantic. Southwest will not have a problem.

 

[General Lee]

General,

You keep saying Gary got "creamed" or had his "azz handed to him". How do you figure? This implies that had Gary did not have the power to pull the labor contingency and write a bigger check.

I have a feeling you know full well what really happened: He stood by his word (to labor) and decided it wasnt worth another dollar more. At the end of the day, had he wanted F9, he would have had F9.

Hose,

Many analysts think Kelly got creamed, or just wasn't up to the task. Here is an article from the Dallas Morning News (in LUV territory), and see what they thought:

By ERIC TORBENSON / The Dallas Morning News

A pilot labor deal for Southwest Airlines Co. might not have made a winning difference in its bid for the assets of bankrupt Frontier Airlines.
It's true that Southwest's pilots couldn't broker an agreement with Frontier's union, causing the Dallas-based airline to withdraw its $174 million bid late Thursday. That made Republic Airways Group Inc. the default winner.
But pilot opposition was only one of several reasons the deal fell apart in the 11th hour. Frontier management and creditors had other problems with Southwest's offer. And there were things they liked more about Republic.
Frontier officials talked publicly Friday about the two offers and their decision process. Southwest officials wouldn't comment beyond a statement issued Thursday evening.
Frontier executives said they liked Republic's ability to close its deal quickly and its commitment to expand Frontier's fleet of Airbus planes. The fact that Republic sweetened its offer at the last minute also helped, Frontier managers said Friday. It had originally bid $108.8 million, but Frontier didn't release the amount of the winning offer.
"I think both parties had a substantial chance of winning," said Sean Menke, Frontier's chief executive, in a conference call. However, Republic's ability to get Frontier out of bankruptcy protection by next month and its vision to keep Frontier as its own airline were significant factors, he said.
Southwest's offer probably would have triggered antitrust concerns from the Department of Justice, and a full competitive review could have taken four to six months, Menke said. Republic has already received antitrust approval to buy Frontier.
Also, Southwest's plan to drop 11 Airbus planes from Frontier's fleet of 51 would have delayed the bankruptcy case and added extra costs that Republic's bid avoids.

Not apples to apples

Among the biggest misconceptions of the auction process was the price tag. Southwest's $174 million offer – some details of which were not made public until Friday – included merger-related costs that never would have found their way to Frontier's creditors. It included a series of extra charges to pay off aircraft lessors and other creditors as well as money for Republic's claim against the Frontier bankruptcy and a termination fee for Republic, an Indianapolis-based airline holding company.
"These were not apples-to-apples comparisons," said Ted Christie, Frontier's chief financial officer.
Indeed, the bids were just a few million dollars apart in total value initially, despite the different totals. Southwest's bid would have paid creditors at a rate of 12 cents on the dollar; Republic's at 9 cents.
But Republic sweetened its offer late in the game, effectively pushing the amount of money creditors received to 19 cents on the dollar by agreeing to accept less money for its claims.

Southwest 'naive'


Critics who watched the process closely said Southwest's bid wasn't ready for prime time. Southwest executives "seemed not to understand the dynamics of the process or the obvious bottlenecks and complexities involved," said industry consultant Mo Garfinkle of Arlington, Va. Southwest "was naive and it didn't know it. It underestimated Republic and its talented management team, and it overestimated the reception to a Southwest bid, especially by the Frontier stakeholders."
Southwest withdrew its bid Thursday evening when the pilots' unions of the two airlines could not reach agreements before the auction process, as was required by Southwest's offer. The offer would have given pilots more pay, but kept them at the bottom of the seniority list.
In a note to members Friday, Carl Kuwitzky, president of Southwest's pilots' union, said he applauded Southwest chairman Gary Kelly for sticking to a promise to have the labor settlement a condition of the bid. "I called Gary last night to personally thank him, and he shared a closing thought that I agree with – 'It was not meant to be.' "
Kuwitzky said his team had 3 ½ hours Wednesday to negotiate an agreement that typically would take months. He had his doubts that Frontier pilots "had any intention of ever reaching an agreement" with Southwest and said Frontier's union never responded to calls for more talks Thursday.
Picking the winner was up to Menke, his executives and Frontier's board of directors after they consulted with Frontier's creditors committee. Their obligation was to keep the bidders informed about their status and to work with the trailing bidder to raise their offer. "The whole process was very cordial," he said. "Southwest was very professional."
For Frontier, the focus turns to growing its fleet and emerging from bankruptcy protection, which it said is possible by Sept. 17. Frontier was forced into bankruptcy in April 2008, when its credit card processor changed the terms on ticket sales and tied up substantial amounts of its cash.

Battle for Denver

The Denver air market is no more appealing for three airlines than when Frontier filed for Chapter 11; Southwest continues to add to its presence, though analysts say the carrier is losing money on its fast-growing Denver operations, an assessment Menke agrees with. "They're having some difficulty here," he said, adding that he believes incumbent carrier United is also losing money in Denver and will cede more market share.
Frontier said its lower costs and brand loyalty will help it survive in Denver. Frontier believes its operating costs are lower than Southwest's and substantially lower than United's. "We will continue to compete very, very vigorously," Menke said.
Airline financial analysts such as Vaughn Cordle of AirlineForecasts LLC expect a brutal war of attrition in Denver. Republic-controlled Frontier is unlikely to win unless Republic replaces some of Frontier's Airbus aircraft with its own regional jets flown by pilots making substantially less than what Frontier pilots are paid.
He estimates that Frontier's pilots cost the carrier $170 an hour in wages and benefits, compared with $99 an hour for Republic's regional jet pilots; Southwest's pilots cost $290 an hour, he estimates.
Cordle said that although Southwest pilots make more, the carrier can absorb deep losses in Denver that Frontier cannot.
Cutting pilot costs "is the only way Republic's Frontier survives," he said Friday, noting that Republic is in the process of switching out bigger planes for smaller ones with Midwest Airlines, the Milwaukee-based carrier that Republic officially bought July 31. Investors had bid up Southwest's shares 20 percent since July 30, when the airline announced its intention to bid on Frontier. Southwest shares fell 19 cents to $9.08 Friday, while Republic's shares rose 60 cents to $6.60.



Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[SELFloadingCRGO]

That's your proof that Gary got "creamed"? A few analysts that think they have a bead on the airline industry? Whatever makes you sleep better Gen...



SLC

 

[mt2]

So, let me get this straight -- we're all supposed to buy, as truth, what a lawyer type named Mo says ?? Good one, "Believe none of what you hear and half of what you see."

 

[Whataburger]

Two things that Delta has more experience than us in:

1. Bankruptcy

2. Int'l flying

 

[General Lee]

That's your proof that Gary got "creamed"? A few analysts that think they have a bead on the airline industry? Whatever makes you sleep better Gen...



SLC

Gary made a promise he probably wishes he could have taken back with his pilots, and then made a lowball offer. Yeah, I am wrong. What has he now accomplished? He settled a TA with you guys, but now will lose more in DEN, and not dominate, which could have helped you get your TA anyway. Wow, and you can't see it too? He and you lost out on dominance. And I guess a FEW analysts are wrong, and you and other SWA pilots are right..... whatever to feed your huge ego, again. Hey, that staple was a great offer.....



Bye Bye--General Lee