W & B question

[ImbracableCrunk]

Anybody wanna argue that you can burn reserve fuel sitting at your departure airport? Had a captain tell me that once. :nuts:

 

[CaptainKiwi]

So are you saying you would takeoff at a weight that exceeds the TOW on your release? I'm saying you need to call for a re-release. You and the dispatcher can then agree to burn the extra gas enroute. If you find yourself at the end of the runway and are under your released TOW you can takeoff regardless of how much taxi fuel you have burned.
I can't think of any scenario in which you would be at or under the TOW on your release and not have burned the listed taxi fuel. You and the dispatcher can certainly agree that you can burn an extra 200 enroute to get a jumpseater on, but you have to be re-released. You can't just takeoff at a weight 200 pounds over your release weight and say that you will burn it enroute. If you and the dispatcher agree, you get re-released at the higher weight and you are legal.

What I'm saying is that you are set up to fail by your dispatcher. Why bother leave the gate if your too heavy to takeoff? If you have to wait 45 minutes to takeoff, it's a poor plan unless your certain you are gonna wait at least 45 minutes. But I did say this earlier... If your max t/o wt due to landing wt limit is in effect. You have a certain amount of taxi fuel to get to the runway. All you have other than taxi fuel is min fuel for enroute, alt, and res. Your saying you must burn all your taxi fuel but none of your min fuel. That gives you an exact moment to takeoff. This came up alot on the crj. It was so weight limited, we were always maxed out to landing weight limit. Taxi fuel was always used in the calculation to get more weight on. I just never heard anyone waiting at the end of the runway wait while they burnt all their taxi fuel before they took off. Besides when your using wt averages what does it really matter. Have you seen the public? I'm sure we are always over weight. As long as it's good on paper, does it really matter?

 

[AutoBus]

Can you takeoff knowing that your estimated landing weight is over max?

No strickly speaking, it is not legal.

Is it legal to takeoff, burn extra in cruise and land within the legal limit?

Only if it is reflected in the release (ie the plan), thus eliminating the problem.

Often often the final w/b will have a burn-to fuel requirement on the release, meaning you must burn down to a certain fuel value before you can take off.

You just can't say "oh we'll just burn more enroute" and call it legal, it's not.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

What is considered normal fuel burn by the FAA or CAA for that matter?
Based on what parameters is BOF (burn off fuel) computed?

I'm sorry your friends got written off, when I was a kid I got written off by an inspector that said I didn't report that both propellers strike on the runway upon arrival, I was flying a Navajo Panther conversion with the Qtips, I believe your friends case would be just as easy to beat

Lets examine a few things here as to what the FAA considers regulatory compliance, (discussed with a few professional aviators now with the friendly folks at the FAA) first there is no regulatory restrictions to fly a Jet at any end of the envelope, you can take off and climb at max angle to 8,000 feet and then cruise to your destination at minimum clean speed, in the other end you can climb at VMO/ MMO and cruise at your max altitude, both are regulatory compliant and there is no violation as long as you do meet your fuel requirements. You guys are thinking in terms of what you input on your FMC and the fuel over destination that it is showing you for arrival and the FMC is not even a legal means to determine fuel requirement compliance, it is only guidance and all ICAO nations (including the USA) have the same requirement, you must use your performance charts specified in the Aircraft Operations Manual, you guys are thinking in terms of well my company cruises at ECON therefore I have to meet the requirements at ECON and the regulatory compliance has nothing to do with any speed and/or altitude, first of all ECON will be different within different operators of the same A/C just by interchanging cost indexes on the FMC, the FAA doesn't care if you cruise at .78 or .84, they don't care if you cruise at 8,000 or FL400 you guys are restricting yourself's to what you input on the FMC for your filed route and performance and the FMC is not even a legal means to determine fuel requirements regulatory compliance, only your A/C performance charts are the legal binding document.

The question came in the case that you would be a little over for the T/O to meet max landing weight (as programmed on the FMC) and Fuel Over Destination FMC calculations has NO BEARING or RELEVANCE, only your projected Burn Off Fuel specified in your performance numbers. Thus the example that was brought up (don't remember by who) You are taxing and ended up not burning all your taxi fuel before departure and ended up 1,000 heavier all you need to do is pick another performance within the broad spectrum of the performance of the airplane specified on the manuals (your release burn summary is based on that) that meet your BOF requirements without infringing on your alternate and reserves requirements and you are regulatory compliant. Don't even need a new release if you just pick a lower altitude on your burn summary, they are based on your performance charts

 

[SplitBar]

The only 2 people who are gonna know if land a bit overweight are the 2 pilots. There is no alarm that is going to go off and be sent to the FAA. Just use common sense.

 

[Singlecoil]

The only 2 people who are gonna know if land a bit overweight are the 2 pilots. There is no alarm that is going to go off and be sent to the FAA. Just use common sense.

Not always true. We have data mining in the form of FOQA data in which the numbers are automatically sent via acars to dispatch. Will the company self disclose on you if they see a violation? I would say that you can count on that.

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

What is considered normal fuel burn by the FAA or CAA for that matter?
Based on what parameters is BOF (burn off fuel) computed?

I'm sorry your friends got written off, when I was a kid I got written off by an inspector that said I didn't report that both propellers strike on the runway upon arrival, I was flying a Navajo Panther conversion with the Qtips, I believe your friends case would be just as easy to beat

Lets examine a few things here as to what the FAA considers regulatory compliance, (discussed with a few professional aviators now with the friendly folks at the FAA) first there is no regulatory restrictions to fly a Jet at any end of the envelope, you can take off and climb at max angle to 8,000 feet and then cruise to your destination at minimum clean speed, in the other end you can climb at VMO/ MMO and cruise at your max altitude, both are regulatory compliant and there is no violation as long as you do meet your fuel requirements. You guys are thinking in terms of what you input on your FMC and the fuel over destination that it is showing you for arrival and the FMC is not even a legal means to determine fuel requirement compliance, it is only guidance and all ICAO nations (including the USA) have the same requirement, you must use your performance charts specified in the Aircraft Operations Manual, you guys are thinking in terms of well my company cruises at ECON therefore I have to meet the requirements at ECON and the regulatory compliance has nothing to do with any speed and/or altitude, first of all ECON will be different within different operators of the same A/C just by interchanging cost indexes on the FMC, the FAA doesn't care if you cruise at .78 or .84, they don't care if you cruise at 8,000 or FL400 you guys are restricting yourself's to what you input on the FMC for your filed route and performance and the FMC is not even a legal means to determine fuel requirements regulatory compliance, only your A/C performance charts are the legal binding document.

The question came in the case that you would be a little over for the T/O to meet max landing weight (as programmed on the FMC) and Fuel Over Destination FMC calculations has NO BEARING or RELEVANCE, only your projected Burn Off Fuel specified in your performance numbers. Thus the example that was brought up (don't remember by who) You are taxing and ended up not burning all your taxi fuel before departure and ended up 1,000 heavier all you need to do is pick another performance within the broad spectrum of the performance of the airplane specified on the manuals (your release burn summary is based on that) that meet your BOF requirements without infringing on your alternate and reserves requirements and you are regulatory compliant. Don't even need a new release if you just pick a lower altitude on your burn summary, they are based on your performance charts

So you're the guy that everybody knows that had the fed go after for the Q-tips! Reminds me of the fed that went after the Avro pilots for turning on an engine during climb out. (It was the flaps retracting.)

This has nothing to do with FMC or its predictions. All it has to do with is the release and are you taking off with a fuel load that makes your FB+ZFW>MaxLdgWt. Does it need to be on paper, or in your head?

Our Op Specs require an amended release for any altitude changes of >4,000, so you can't exactly play it too much. There is a section on the release that gives you a FB for, I think 1 and 2 thousand foot deviations from planned cruise, but beyond that, you're just guessing.

When do you think 121.195 would be used?

 

[Dumb Pilot]

So you're the guy that everybody knows that had the fed go after for the Q-tips!

I don't know if this has become urban legend by now but this happened to me in FLL

This has nothing to do with FMC or its predictions. All it has to do with is the release and are you taking off with a fuel load that makes your FB+ZFW>MaxLdgWt. Does it need to be on paper, or in your head?

Our Op Specs require an amended release for any altitude changes of >4,000, so you can't exactly play it too much. There is a section on the release that gives you a FB for, I think 1 and 2 thousand foot deviations from planned cruise, but beyond that, you're just guessing.

Precisely, thank you. I understand that if you are in an RJ and flying from MSP to GRB your choices are limited but that is not every case thus my original comment. If I am 1,000 pounds heavier and I'm number two on line for T/O with a lets say TYO/PUD sector ahead of me, all I have to do is choose one of those altitudes available on my navlog (release)
that would give me a higher BOF without infringing on my Alt/Res reserve numbers in a medium sector on the 76 that could be as much as 2,000 pounds and Voila.

When do you think 121.195 would be used?

I understand the regulation, but the example was about you being slightly overweight for T/O or relation to your plan and if you took off you are immediately in violation of .195, it is not the case

 

[AutoBus]

I don't know if this has become urban legend by now but this happened to me in FLL



Precisely, thank you. I understand that if you are in an RJ and flying from MSP to GRB your choices are limited but that is not every case thus my original comment. If I am 1,000 pounds heavier and I'm number two on line for T/O with a lets say TYO/PUD sector ahead of me, all I have to do is choose one of those altitudes available on my navlog (release)
that would give me a higher BOF without infringing on my Alt/Res reserve numbers in a medium sector on the 76 that could be as much as 2,000 pounds and Voila.



I understand the regulation, but the example was about you being slightly overweight for T/O or relation to your plan and if you took off you are immediately in violation of .195, it is not the case

Technically it's illegal, that's the regulation, why bother having a regulation if you are allowed to finese your way around it. The release is indeed a plan and there are expectations that the actual flight will need to vary from the plan eventually, that's why you have reserve, hold, contingency fuel, the FAA does not look kindly on blowing off the plan (without dispatch concurence) before takeoff.


Do yourself a favor, burn down to where you need to be or have the dispatcher refigure the burn for a higherspeed/lower altitude.

Anything else borders on wink-wink compliance with the regualtions, trouble with that is, after a while wink-wink becomes the norm. then people start finding themselves with FAA actions and Fines (think the fast taxiing airline)

 

[Pull To Guns]

Technically it's illegal, that's the regulation, why bother having a regulation if you are allowed to finese your way around it. The release is indeed a plan and there are expectations that the actual flight will need to vary from the plan eventually, that's why you have reserve, hold, contingency fuel, the FAA does not look kindly on blowing off the plan (without dispatch concurence) before takeoff.


Do yourself a favor, burn down to where you need to be or have the dispatcher refigure the burn for a higherspeed/lower altitude.

Anything else borders on wink-wink compliance with the regualtions, trouble with that is, after a while wink-wink becomes the norm. then people start finding themselves with FAA actions and Fines (think the fast taxiing airline)

If the dispatcher amends the release for a higher speed/lower altitude, the new higher burn off fuel requirement will be reflected as MORE fuel required for min. takeoff fuel on the release and will not help your problem. If your MTOW is already limited by MLW at the destination, the higher fuel requirement per the new release will force you to offload payload to keep within limits.

I wish I had a dollar for every time I have had to explain this.