W & B question

[ImbracableCrunk]

Can you takeoff knowing that your estimated landing weight is over max? Is it legal to takeoff, burn extra in cruise and land within the legal limit?

In FARs I found where it's illegal to land, but I couldn't find where it says it's illegal to takeoff.

Not at all. I just think that common sense prevails rather than being caught in FAR minutia. This is how I see it working in the real world.

Flying Corporal asked if it was legal and the answer is no.

I know what happens it real world. I also know some POIs don't care until metal is bent and some couldn't figure out FARs to save their lives.

Some pilots don't know or understand a reg and may bust it by mistake. Some pilots understand a reg, but bust it anyway.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

Some pilots don't know or understand a reg and may bust it by mistake. Some pilots understand a reg, but bust it anyway.

Some pilots just make their own interpretation of the regs, I love how you conveniently left out the portion that didn't make your point


Sec. 121.195 - Airplanes: Turbine engine powered: Landing limitations: Destination airports. (a) No person operating a turbine engine powered airplane may take off that airplane at such a weight that (allowing for normal consumption of fuel and oil in flight to the destination or alternate airport) the weight of the airplane on arrival would exceed the landing weight set forth in the Airplane Flight Manual for the elevation of the destination or alternate airport and the ambient temperature anticipated at the time of landing.

What is normal fuel consumption? What you would normally burn at the planned altitude? If you change the altitude/speed doesn't that change what is considered normal for that altitude? You can take off and have dispatch re compute your numbers afterwards, can you not? as a matter of fact if you choose another altitude that shows the BOF (burn off fuel) that you need from one of the choices on the burn summary, you don't even need for dispatch to re compute, take a wild guess at what that new BOF becomes, it becomes your normal fuel burn

Sorry I just don't agree with you and I have had the same conversation with plenty of FEDS in both sides of the Pacific andthey are not interpreting it like you are because how is it that the FAA, CAA don't go after folks requesting holdings upon arrival or extended downwind because they are still a little over max landing, you hear this kinds of requests all the time and the controllers accommodate your request as a matter of course, you don't see legal action taken.

You can cut in line and takeoff from a feeder, if your melon tells you to. Is it legal? No.

What do you mean, can't do an intersection departure???? If you have performance calculations Why not???

I know what happens it real world. I also know some POIs don't care until metal is bent and some couldn't figure out FARs to save their lives.

I'm glad the FAA has you to set them straight

 

[V1rowt8]

Realistically we takeoff and land routinely over and under actual the planned weight due to the fact that the pax and bag weights are averaged anyways. I would not use this as a defense in a fed inquiry or use it to takeoff illegally. This seams rather obviously hypocritical in the grand scheme of things. I remember a scenario where there was a coin collecting convention where all of the 150 bags were counted as regular checked bags at 25 lbs a piece when after a rather nose aft cg takeoff and landing was discovered that the bags were about 75 to 100 lbs. Do the math, they were way over weight. Who gets the violation here?

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

It seems to me that the disposition of your POI is the biggest variable.

Some pilots just make their own interpretation of the regs, I love how you conveniently left out the portion that didn't make your point


Sec. 121.195 - Airplanes: Turbine engine powered: Landing limitations: Destination airports. (a) No person operating a turbine engine powered airplane may take off that airplane at such a weight that (allowing for normal consumption of fuel and oil in flight to the destination or alternate airport) the weight of the airplane on arrival would exceed the landing weight set forth in the Airplane Flight Manual for the elevation of the destination or alternate airport and the ambient temperature anticipated at the time of landing.

What is normal fuel consumption? What you would normally burn at the planned altitude? If you change the altitude/speed doesn't that change what is considered normal for that altitude? You can take off and have dispatch re compute your numbers afterwards, can you not? as a matter of fact if you choose another altitude that shows the BOF (burn off fuel) that you need from one of the choices on the burn summary, you don't even need for dispatch to re compute, take a wild guess at what that new BOF becomes, it becomes your normal fuel burn

You and I aren't really disagreeing. It's the Feds who are. And it only takes one Fed to bust you.

Do you head to Europe at all? Check out their version:

JAR-OPS 1.475 General
(a) An operator shall ensure that the mass of the aeroplane:
(1) At the start of the takeoff;
or, in the event of in-flight replanning
(2) At the point from which the revised operational flight plan applies,
is not greater than the mass at which the requirements of the
appropriate Subpart can be complied with for the flight to be
undertaken, allowing for expected reductions in mass as the flight
proceeds, and for such fuel jettisoning as is provided for in the
particular requirement.
(b) An operator shall ensure that the approved performance data
contained in the Aeroplane Flight Manual is used to determine compliance
with the requirements of the appropriate Subpart, supplemented as
necessary with other data acceptable to the Authority as prescribed in
the relevant Subpart. When applying the factors prescribed in the
appropriate Subpart, account may be taken of any operational factors
already incorporated in the Aeroplane Flight Manual performance data to
avoid double application of factors. (See AMC OPS 1.475(b) & IEM OPS
1.475(b)).

Sorry I just don't agree with you and I have had the same conversation with plenty of FEDS in both sides of the Pacific andthey are not interpreting it like you are

Some pilots at a previous airline were busted by a Fed who interpreted differently. That's where I get my understanding. See the top quote.

because how is it that the FAA, CAA don't go after folks requesting holdings upon arrival or extended downwind because they are still a little over max landing, you hear this kinds of requests all the time and the controllers accommodate your request as a matter of course, you don't see legal action taken.

Maybe that's because before they took off, they were good with the numbers but had a stronger than forecast tailwind or shorter routing. I've done it myself.

What do you mean, can't do an intersection departure???? If you have performance calculations Why not???

Bad wording on my part. I meant that you can cut in line and takeoff without a clearance if you wanted. Might not have a good outcome, but you could do it.

I'm glad the FAA has you to set them straight

This is just a discussion about our war stories. I'm sure the guys who got violated would like your interpretation much better, too.

 

[igneousy2]

Not at all. I just think that common sense prevails rather than being caught in FAR minutia. This is how I see it working in the real world.

That's fine in real life but if something happens you need to know what the rule is so that you know what to say....what you are SAYING is a fast-boat to a license suspension if you ever have to testify about it...

what you should say is "after I looked at the fuel gauges I determined based on my quick mental math abilities that allowing for normal consumption of fuel and oil in flight to the destination or alternate airport, the weight of the airplane on our arrival would NOT exceed the landing weight set forth in the Airplane Flight Manual for the elevation of the destination or alternate airport and the ambient temperature anticipated at our time of landing...your honor.

Kinda like when you added 500 feet to your altitude to determine the bases in a base report when you were scud running VFR in a 172.

 

[CaptainKiwi]

I think someone has watched "My Cousin Vinny", one too many times but I do like that response...

 

[Singlecoil]

An interesting discussion, but I can't think of a scenario in which it applies.
Where I work, 121, the release has TOW and ramp weight. Ramp weight is TOW plus taxi fuel. You cannot take off if you are over your TOW on the release. You can push back as long as your ramp weight is not over the max ramp weight limitation of the aircraft.
The TOW on the release is landing weight plus enroute, alternate, and reserve fuel, but not taxi fuel.
Let's say your release TOW is 150,000 and your taxi fuel is listed as 500. The aircraft has a maximum ramp weight of 170,000. You can push back as long as you are under 170,000. You cannot take off until your actual brake release weight is 150,000. Maybe you pushed back at 150,600, but there was some fuel in the extra column on the release. You can push back, but you must burn 600 before takeoff, in this case 500 taxi and you are burning 100 of your extra.
To do otherwise requires a re-release from dispatch. They may ask you if you can burn it enroute, at which point you can say yes or no. If you say no, you have to bump payload or fuel. If you say yes, you get re-released for a higher burn and takeoff using your new release and new legal higher TOW.

 

[CaptainKiwi]

An interesting discussion, but I can't think of a scenario in which it applies.
Where I work, 121, the release has TOW and ramp weight. Ramp weight is TOW plus taxi fuel. You cannot take off if you are over your TOW on the release. You can push back as long as your ramp weight is not over the max ramp weight limitation of the aircraft.
The TOW on the release is landing weight plus enroute, alternate, and reserve fuel, but not taxi fuel.
Let's say your release TOW is 150,000 and your taxi fuel is listed as 500. The aircraft has a maximum ramp weight of 170,000. You can push back as long as you are under 170,000. You cannot take off until your actual brake release weight is 150,000. Maybe you pushed back at 150,600, but there was some fuel in the extra column on the release. You can push back, but you must burn 600 before takeoff, in this case 500 taxi and you are burning 100 of your extra.
To do otherwise requires a re-release from dispatch. They may ask you if you can burn it enroute, at which point you can say yes or no. If you say no, you have to bump payload or fuel. If you say yes, you get re-released for a higher burn and takeoff using your new release and new legal higher TOW.

How do you bump payload or fuel when your at the end of the runway and you number 1 for takeoff at LGA? You go back to the gate?

You are set up to fail when you have 45 minutes of taxi fuel and today you could have taken off without delay... After you burn your taxi fuel, you takeoff and then you get to your destination and have to hold. You end up burning your fuel and now have to divert. You sure could have used that fuel that you wasted on the ground to get yourself under a predicted landing weight to takeoff. Especially when the only limit on takeoff is your planned landing weight.

 

[Singlecoil]

How do you bump payload or fuel when your at the end of the runway and you number 1 for takeoff at LGA? You go back to the gate?

You are set up to fail when you have 45 minutes of taxi fuel and today you could have taken off without delay... After you burn your taxi fuel, you takeoff and then you get to your destination and have to hold. You end up burning your fuel and now have to divert. You sure could have used that fuel that you wasted on the ground to get yourself under a predicted landing weight to takeoff. Especially when the only limit on takeoff is your planned landing weight.

So are you saying you would takeoff at a weight that exceeds the TOW on your release? I'm saying you need to call for a re-release. You and the dispatcher can then agree to burn the extra gas enroute. If you find yourself at the end of the runway and are under your released TOW you can takeoff regardless of how much taxi fuel you have burned.
I can't think of any scenario in which you would be at or under the TOW on your release and not have burned the listed taxi fuel. You and the dispatcher can certainly agree that you can burn an extra 200 enroute to get a jumpseater on, but you have to be re-released. You can't just takeoff at a weight 200 pounds over your release weight and say that you will burn it enroute. If you and the dispatcher agree, you get re-released at the higher weight and you are legal.

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

How do you bump payload or fuel when your at the end of the runway and you number 1 for takeoff at LGA? You go back to the gate?

You are set up to fail when you have 45 minutes of taxi fuel and today you could have taken off without delay... After you burn your taxi fuel, you takeoff and then you get to your destination and have to hold. You end up burning your fuel and now have to divert. You sure could have used that fuel that you wasted on the ground to get yourself under a predicted landing weight to takeoff. Especially when the only limit on takeoff is your planned landing weight.

What SC is saying, is that if you are released at 151,000 you need an amended release if you want to take off above that. No biggie, and it happens all the time. Fueler wasn't paying attention and put in 23,000 instead of 22,500. Amend it and get on with it.

MTOW is the lowest of the Runway, Climb, Structural, Enroute, and Landing limits (plus the applicable burn), right? I fly out of mountainous terrain and have to worry about ETCP for Enroute. The MTOW from the release accounts for all of the restrictions including enroute.

Kiwi, how are you accounting for everything else? Sure, takeoff tables will give you your runway limit and maybe some climb portion, but what about the rest? Saying you'll drop the flaps early when you get close to KDEN doesn't do much good if you're single-engine and over-weight in the middle of the Rockies.

I know we'd all like to arrive at the destination with a little extra gas, but if you're PIC and you need it, tell that to the dispatch and have them put in it the release - and make it legal.