W & B question

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Wrong.

So you're telling me that if you are next in line at LGA and you're 100 pounds under planned taxi fuel that you will not accept a takeoff clearance?

One delay vector or altitude holddown for traffic cures the problem.

Don't land overweight and don't PUSH without the numbers jiving. Everything in the middle is one GIGANTIC variable.

Gup

Gup,

This isn't quite correct at all carriers. At 9E and other "legalistic carriers" you would be wrong, however common sense and appropriate judgement rules at other carriers like DL and it sounds like WN.

Different ways to skin at cat....

 

[Dumb Pilot]

Gup,

This isn't quite correct at all carriers. At 9E and other "legalistic carriers" you would be wrong, however common sense and appropriate judgement rules at other carriers like DL and it sounds like WN.

Different ways to skin at cat....

Excuse me? PCL is a legalistic carrier? In my six years there (three as a check airman) I must have missed that memo. I'm scheduled to burn 1,000 pounds on the ground but due to slow ground traffic or a simple runway change I end up burning 600, are you seriously saying that to be legal I have to hold an extra 15 minutes on the ground when I have a several hours flight ahead of me? I agree with Gup on that one, YOU are the one that controls the flight after you block out because you did blocked out legally, you are required to monitor your fuel burn during the flight thus you adjust it so as landing at or bellow your MLW. The release is a PLAN.
What about if you did burn the required taxi fuel but you are still heavy because the projected winds where not what was planned? guys please!, the regulations due account for you to use that big melon sitting over your shoulders

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

DumbPilot - You can cut in line and takeoff from a feeder, if your melon tells you to. Is it legal? No. Could you? Sure.

The question is: Can you legally take off? No. 121.195 is clear.

Would you get caught? Probably not.

Have people been caught? Absolutely.

It seems to me that the disposition of your POI is the biggest variable.

 

[TWA Dude]

These scenarios play out every day all over. If the numbers are legal when you push from that point on whether you're on the ground or in the air all you have to do is ensure you burn off enough to land. The distinction is the planning versus the actual, kind of like flight time limits.

 

[PreContact]

Just configure a little bit earlier.

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

These scenarios play out every day all over. If the numbers are legal when you push from that point on whether you're on the ground or in the air all you have to do is ensure you burn off enough to land. The distinction is the planning versus the actual, kind of like flight time limits.

So by that logic you can take off above MGTOW or below MIN Fuel. It was good at the gate, so giddyup.

Except - the sneaky FAA actually differentiates between dispatch and physical take off:


Sec. 121.639 - Fuel supply: All domestic operations.
No person may dispatch or take off an airplane unless it has enough fuel --
(a) To fly to the airport to which it is dispatched;
(b) Thereafter, to fly to and land at the most distant alternate airport (where required) for the airport to which dispatched; and
(c) Thereafter, to fly for 45 minutes at normal cruising fuel consumption. . .

In our question when 121.195 says:

Sec. 121.195 - Airplanes: Turbine engine powered: Landing limitations: Destination airports.
(a) No person operating a turbine engine powered airplane may take off that airplane . . .


. . . they mean take off, not dispatch.

 

[CaptainKiwi]

So is this what we should be doing???

Your cleared for takeoff but you haven't used all your taxi fuel to allow for max takeoff weight due to landing limit. You tell the tower you need to wait 5 minutes. Tower tells you to hold short while they land traffic. Meanwhile 7 minutes has passed and now you are below minimum fuel. So you now have to go back to the gate to get more fuel and start over. You could be at the airport all day going back and forth until you hit your takeoff weight exactly as at max takeoff weight to land but minimum fuel to fly. Sounds really silly. I'd love to hear those PA's. "Sorry folks, we have too much fuel to takeoff.". Seven minutes later. "Sorry folks we need to go back to the gate to get more fuel". If I had a choice in front of the FAA I'd prefer to have more fuel than less. You can always burn fuel. Planned vs. Actual.

 

[PreContact]

I agree with Kiwi...

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

I'm not saying Kiwi's example would be fun, but if you can't go to an airport because of weight issues, you can't go. Call dispatch and work out a new plan. Most times you can fix it without a return. What the regs say is you can't just blast off and fix it in the air.

I've had to turn around for stupider reasons than that (missing weather on a clear day, MU reading 1 number too low, &c.).

Common sense and legal are not necessarily the same thing.

 

[tzskipper]

So is this what we should be doing???

Your cleared for takeoff but you haven't used all your taxi fuel to allow for max takeoff weight due to landing limit. You tell the tower you need to wait 5 minutes. Tower tells you to hold short while they land traffic. Meanwhile 7 minutes has passed and now you are below minimum fuel. So you now have to go back to the gate to get more fuel and start over. You could be at the airport all day going back and forth until you hit your takeoff weight exactly as at max takeoff weight to land but minimum fuel to fly. Sounds really silly. I'd love to hear those PA's. "Sorry folks, we have too much fuel to takeoff.". Seven minutes later. "Sorry folks we need to go back to the gate to get more fuel". If I had a choice in front of the FAA I'd prefer to have more fuel than less. You can always burn fuel. Planned vs. Actual.

Kiwi,

There are basically two concerns regarding fuel at the end of the runway:

The first is that you cannot begin your take-off roll without at least the minimum (min fuel) required in the dispatch release (this is the minimum fuel you can depart with).

The second concern is that you cannot begin your take-off roll if you (after subtracting out the calculated fuel burn of the flight plan) will land overweight (this is the maximum fuel you can depart with).

Taxi fuel that is put in by dispatch is just a wag based on historical data. The two items above keep you in compliance with the FARs.

S