Virgin America Jumpseat

[aa73]

Quote:

Ok, I was a bit hasty there.
Although I don't agree with Branson starting another LCC I'll agree to keep the jumpseat out of it...
Everybody is welcome to ride (except scabs of course.

Thank you, Viking, for being professional about it in the end. I too dislike the payscales, all the more reason for us to raise that bar. Re-edition accepted!

73

 

[AMRCostUnit]

You're right. They will steal market share. And they'll be using their pilots' wages to subsidize it. It's not too hard to undercut another airline's fares and steal market share when you have a group of pilots working for 2/3's (or less) of the going rate.

Read the above slowly and remind me again why we should let non-union pilots ride the J/S? Why should we help them take market share? We only hurt ourselves (unionized) when we do. I agree with Viking737's first post on the topic.

Unit

Get a Union/Get a Ride

 

[Getter]

Well, I see the big fork sticking in this thread...

We don't go many places yet, but if you want a ride stop on by. CASS folks get access to the two up front and any open in coach. Non CASS can still get on in the back. We greatly appreciate any return favors.

Ralph out...

The two up front hurts, but glad to have the ride when the situation dictates. Please remind the captain that for safety and security; it benefits the flight (and the commuter) to put jumpseaters in first class. The captain still runs the show and has the authority to put j/s anywhere there is room available including first class. We always make the effort to make sure this happens when we can. We would like to see this reciprocated as well.

 

[aa73]

Read the above slowly and remind me again why we should let non-union pilots ride the J/S? Why should we help them take market share? We only hurt ourselves (unionized) when we do. I agree with Viking737's first post on the topic.

Unit

Get a Union/Get a Ride

Simply because that non-union (for now) airline allows YOUR union a$$ on the jumpseat, no questions asked. Hence the reciprocity. So stop it with the hypocrisy.

73

 

[Tejas-Jet]

Read the above slowly and remind me again why we should let non-union pilots ride the J/S? Why should we help them take market share? We only hurt ourselves (unionized) when we do. I agree with Viking737's first post on the topic.

Geez...another tough guy. How about when the pilots from YOUR airline go looking for a ride from VA?

You got problems with that too? Or is it then OK to have that RECIPRICAL agreement?

Using the J/S as a political tool only makes things harder for your own pilots in the end...not to mention the "invitations" so you can talk to the chief about all this.

 

[Blue Dude]

Read the above slowly and remind me again why we should let non-union pilots ride the J/S? Why should we help them take market share? We only hurt ourselves (unionized) when we do. I agree with Viking737's first post on the topic.

Unit

Get a Union/Get a Ride

Just out of curiosity, how do you treat union pilots who are paid significantly less than you, thus "undercutting" you? For that matter, how do you treat union pilots whose company is whipping your ass in the marketplace, but who get paid more than you? I am breathlessly awaiting your no doubt logical response.

What's that smell? Um, hypocrisy, maybe?

 

[Mr.B]

Put THAT into context and you will see the point.....when you are done teaching the SAT test, maybe you can bring something relevant to the thread.

I have been accused of being a "cunning linguist"....lol

Bring something relevant? What would you suggest? Office avatars, calling others "tools", or fun word-play?

How about this.

All pilots have their own reasons for who they fly for....furloughs, chance for upgrade, QOL issues. MOST do not wish ill-will on their fellow pilots (Indy-air vs. UAL notwithstanding).

99.9% of the time when requesting the jumpseat, pilots are very accommodating and cordial. It isn't until they get behind a keyboard that they "grow a pair". Hows that for word play?

 

[ableone]

Cabotage is coming and Virgin is the toehold on the beach.

The people that go to work there can no doubt justify their decision, much like those who work at pay for training carriers.

We all know what "merit upgrade" really means. That alone will keep me well clear of this operation.

No VAs on my jumpseat either.

When Ryanair, EasyJet etc. start flying domestic city pairs, with EU aviators who have their health care subsidized by their home governments, they will undoubtedly become CASS aproved. Enjoy having them on your jumpseat for the brief period before they occupy your front seat.

When cabotage comes and European pilots are flying here go ahead and try to get an entry level position in europe. "Oh, you only have an FAA certificate? We don't recognize those but we have an 18 month conversion program that only costs $75,000. When you complete the JAA program feel free to send us an application."

Q. How many foreign nationals work for UAL DAL AA etc?

A. You probably are friends with several at your carrier, I know that I am.

Q. How many US nationals work for BA, Air France etc?

A. ZERO. Non-Natives need not apply. Of course you can work in Asia on a contract basis, until they can train enough native pilots that is.

 

[aa73]

Guys:

ANY airline that is on our j/s list is MORE THAN WELCOME to ride our j/s, 1st class, or coach depending on the loads. We do have a few non conformists that will use the j/s as a weapon to wield their displeasure with whatever their issues... they are the exception, not the norm, and cases like that get reported immediately to our j/s comittee.

I apologize on behalf of AA pilots for those who seem to have issues with a pilot's place of employment. Anyone on our list is welcome.

We also appreciate the rides you give our folks.

Thanks,
73

 

[Ralph Cramden]

Ableone,

I appreciate your position on foreign airlines flying domestic service in the US and agree with you.

However, VA is a US certified carrier, flying under a US FAA certificate with labor subject to the same RLA rules you operate under. We are 25% owned by the Virgin Group with their ownership in a blind trust.

Contrast this with the Wings (KLM) purchase of Northwest in 1999 in which KLM was shown to have 49% ownership of the holding company running NWA. I submit to you we are a lot less foreign owned than that case and a long way from operating under a foreign certificate with foreign labor laws.

Again, I understand and share your concerns about the latter happening here in the US. If I thought this was the case at VA I would have never hired on.

You are welcome to hop a ride and chat with our guys. You will see a wealth of US experience up front.

Ralph

 

[bluejuice787]

Ableone,

I appreciate your position on foreign airlines flying domestic service in the US and agree with you.

However, VA is a US certified carrier, flying under a US FAA certificate with labor subject to the same RLA rules you operate under. We are 25% owned by the Virgin Group with their ownership in a blind trust.

Contrast this with the Wings (KLM) purchase of Northwest in 1999 in which KLM was shown to have 49% ownership of the holding company running NWA. I submit to you we are a lot less foreign owned than that case and a long way from operating under a foreign certificate with foreign labor laws.

Again, I understand and share your concerns about the latter happening here in the US. If I thought this was the case at VA I would have never hired on.

You are welcome to hop a ride and chat with our guys. You will see a wealth of US experience up front.

Ralph

Very well said...As an aside, I am in trianing with VA as we speak, I am furlouged AA and in my interview were two current AA pilots.

Juice

 

[Ralph Cramden]

Juice,

Welcome aboard & have fun in MIA. See you on the line.

Ralph

 

[skiandsurf]

Juice,

Welcome aboard & have fun in MIA. See you on the line.

Ralph

The best thing about VA........ is all of those great guys from Independence Air.


Ralph, kill 'em with kindness.....and class.

 

[spacecadet1]

This thread is evidence of just how low this industry is sinking. What are they paying Captains there? $85 or $90/hr. The only people left flying are those that are stuck doing this ******************** because they can't do anything else or they are sitting in the left seat hoping that things hang together till they retire. The job is basically migrating to a high school graduate level (if that much) trade job with minimal aptitude required.

 

[Ralph Cramden]

.........

 

[AMRCostUnit]

Just out of curiosity, how do you treat union pilots who are paid significantly less than you, thus "undercutting" you? For that matter, how do you treat union pilots whose company is whipping your ass in the marketplace, but who get paid more than you? I am breathlessly awaiting your no doubt logical response.

What's that smell? Um, hypocrisy, maybe?

With a union, the mechanism is in place to raise the pay and benefits to the level they should be. Those union carriers with BK contracts won't be there for long and, if we are lucky here at AA, we will be able to raise the bar a few notches.

On the other hand, a non-union carrier just has to take what the "The Man" gives you. You have little recourse short of resigning.

I was a commuter long before JB or VA became to be. My ID, license and medical got me past the agent. The Union Card got me the seat with the old, crusty -10 and 727 UA and NW Captains who told me under no uncertain terms there would be no ride without it. The union will come much faster to JB and VA if a large percentage of the pilots can't get to work because of a "No Union/No Jumpseat" program. It might be painful in the short term but benefical in the long term. It wouldn't take long. Imagine...management might even come to you and say "we need to fix this now...what can we do?" There's leverage for you.

Besides, I'm not a Captain so it's not my jumpseat....yet!

Unit

Get a Union/Get a Ride

 

[J Dawg]

Ableone,



Contrast this with the Wings (KLM) purchase of Northwest in 1999 in which KLM was shown to have 49% ownership of the holding company running NWA. I submit to you we are a lot less foreign owned than that case and a long way from operating under a foreign certificate with foreign labor laws.

You can add US Airways and Continental to the list as well. In the 90's, British Airways pumped 100's of millions of dollars into USAir to keep them propped up. US even had 3 767s painted in BA colors. Likewise, SAS pumped millions into Continental.

Was the anti-Virgin crowd calling for the shutdown of those carriers at the time? The double standard on this issue is mind boggling.

 

[cruxx@9]

This thread is evidence of just how low this industry is sinking. What are they paying Captains there? $85 or $90/hr. The only people left flying are those that are stuck doing this ******************** because they can't do anything else or they are sitting in the left seat hoping that things hang together till they retire. The job is basically migrating to a high school graduate level (if that much) trade job with minimal aptitude required.

Wow, at just shy of 10,000 hours I was one of the least experienced pilots at the interview over at VA. There is a lot of experience coming to VA and from what I could see around VA and the flight on VA to SFO, things will only improve. From what I could see, the people involved are highly motivated, not the bitter, burn-it-down crowd and want to be part of the solution, something that will quickly become a great place to be. It won't be a legacy and if that's your thing great, stay at your airline and do what you can there.

I came from a union place, and thankfully too, for those still there, b/c they need it. Management (except the CP)is outwardly hostile and desperate. I was there for 3 years and they lowered the min's at least twice. Now they are hiring down to 2000 hours, some have less. For a while, things seemed to be improving but as time passed the light at the end of the tunnel seemed more and more to be a train. Anyway, good luck to those that remain and I honestly hope they can turn things around there for the pilots. There are some great pilots over there.

VA on the other hand seems to be nothing but positive and forward thinking. I can't wait to start class with the other great pilots...slightly more than high school educated. Unfortunately, my crystal ball is in the shop. I am sure I made a good decision and time will tell.

Also, VA took great care of me on the JS and we will take great care of you too.

By the way...what college did SRB graduate from?

 

[aa73]

With a union, the mechanism is in place to raise the pay and benefits to the level they should be. Those union carriers with BK contracts won't be there for long and, if we are lucky here at AA, we will be able to raise the bar a few notches.

On the other hand, a non-union carrier just has to take what the "The Man" gives you. You have little recourse short of resigning.

I was a commuter long before JB or VA became to be. My ID, license and medical got me past the agent. The Union Card got me the seat with the old, crusty -10 and 727 UA and NW Captains who told me under no uncertain terms there would be no ride without it. The union will come much faster to JB and VA if a large percentage of the pilots can't get to work because of a "No Union/No Jumpseat" program. It might be painful in the short term but benefical in the long term. It wouldn't take long. Imagine...management might even come to you and say "we need to fix this now...what can we do?" There's leverage for you.

Besides, I'm not a Captain so it's not my jumpseat....yet!

Unit

Get a Union/Get a Ride

Cost Unit,

Your post is accurate and I agree with it. Without a union, we are toast and at the mercy of whatever Mgt comes up with. "If you don't like it, tough."

But as long as these non-union airlines continue to offer us jumpseat agreements, we must reciprocate, and rightly so. No matter how you feel towards non union airlines, the jumpseat must be kept out of it. It is not intended as a weapon, and we must keep it that way. I hope you understand the importance of that.

regards, 73

 

[Hvy]

How about you worry about your financial house and Virgin worries about their own. Virgin is going to take market share from UAL like a baby. At that point our new contract will make sense.

Juice

Funny, I remember the Indy guys saying the same thing.

 

[ualdriver]

Again, I understand and share your concerns about the latter happening here in the US. If I thought this was the case at VA I would have never hired on.


Ralph

Ralph, that was kind of a curious statement coming from a VA pilot. Why are you concerned about cabotage or for that matter, foreign ownership (both will essentially produce the same result) to the point where you wouldn't have taking a job at VA if it would have been a foreign owned airline?

ualdriver

 

[ualdriver]

You think a 14% difference in pay is similar? With soft pay credits, that $10 difference is worth about $11,000 a year at most places. Doesn't seem very similar to me.

AirlinePilotCentral lists VA as having 105 pilots. If they're paying each pilot $11,000 less than their counterpart at UAL, then that saves VA $1.15 million a year just in pilot labor costs. For such a small airline, that's a big pile of cash.

He also forgot to include the 15% B&C fund UAL pilots receive. For me that's a significant portion of my paycheck as it is given to us without taxes taken out and for a guy in the 25% tax bracket, it amounts to a 20% addition to my take home pay.

 

[ualdriver]

Just out of curiosity, how do you treat union pilots who are paid significantly less than you, thus "undercutting" you? For that matter, how do you treat union pilots whose company is whipping your ass in the marketplace, but who get paid more than you? I am breathlessly awaiting your no doubt logical response.

What's that smell? Um, hypocrisy, maybe?

Just out of curiosity, Blue Dude, how are you JetBlue guys going to treat the VA guys? You're a JetBlue guy, right? Let's expand upon this question a little.....

Do you realize that VA has 30+ aircraft coming, and they're already starting to make some in-roads on some JetBlue routes (Bay area transcons for example and certainly more to follow)? Do you realize that if a JetBlue aircraft and a VA aircraft are flying the same exact route, that due to VA's ultra-low pilot wages, they can undercut you guys all day and night and still make a profit? Do you realize that your JetBlue A320 Captain flying that same exact route flying his 71st hour (or greater) for his calendar month is making more money BY HIMSELF THAN THE ENTIRE VIRGIN AMERICA FLIGHT CREW, CAPTAIN, F/O, AND FLIGHT ATTENDANTS and all? You do realize that is a completely financially unsustainable for an airline, right?

What are you guys going to do about that? I know first hand that in the face of competition that uses discount labor to undercut your fares, you're either going to have to pull out of direct competition with VA on those routes to avoid losing money or cuts are going to have to be made in order to remain competitive. Are there any talks of paycuts at JetBlue so you can continue to compete in the future?

And how are you going to treat those VA guys when you're pulling out of transcon markets that your wages can no longer support? How are you going to treat those VA guys when your A320 pilot pay is being cut down a "sustainable" level that allows you to compete with them directly as they enter your markets? Maybe JetBlue will slow growth even more or shrink in the face of this ultra-LCC competition that has perky new employees and new airplanes with better amentities than yours? Maybe VA will smell some blood in the water as JetBlue retreats and decide to plop down a JFK hub/domicile. Are you JetBlue guys going to happily welcome them on your jumpseat for that SFO-JFK transcon so that a $95/hr. VA Captain can get to his new, rapidly growing JFK domicile?

I suspect if this plausible scenario discussed above came into play, there wouldn't be a smiling, happy, JetBlue crew to welcome those VA guys aboard. Maybe I'm wrong. But I doubt it.

 

[FlyUnited]

Anybody had them on their jumpseats?

 

[SNOWBUM]

My dog took a huge sh!t in my neighbors yard today. He's out of town.

one of mine does the same when the neighbors are at work and while we go for a walk. they know they have to be my dogs but can't prove it. tomorrow I will be the one taking the ******************** on their front yard. I'll be posted on yotube shortly.

 

[[email protected]]

Is VA still hiring street captains?

 

[jke406]

one of mine does the same when the neighbors are at work and while we go for a walk. they know they have to be my dogs but can't prove it. tomorrow I will be the one taking the ******************** on their front yard. I'll be posted on yotube shortly.

classy. good luck finding a real job.

 

[FlyByNight1]

Did Jke406 just accused someone of not having any class? WOW! Talk about the pot calling the kettle black...

 

[Zipperhead]

I will not ask for a j/s on VA, nor will I accept a VA
pilot on my jumpseat (AA).

Typical AA DiC$head!!

 

[fandango]

Psych!

I interviewed with VA last month, the next day got the offer, 25 minutes later, got it recalled. I phoned and asked what was up, and was told "..the offer was premature, we need some background we are waiting on etc, but... we are going forward with you." Then 2 weeks of no contact, and a rejection lemail. I have nothing in my background (bad I mean) and was very dissapointed. I was really looking forward to being there. Not to mention, when I got the initial offer, I let my current company know and then later had to let them know it didn't work out. Any ideas?

F