Virgin America hangs as its hedge fund owners get antsy

[Shrek]

You said it Shrek. What these scumbags either fail to realize or deny outright that it is THEIR actions that are ruining this profession for EVERYBODY.

Perhaps a rereading of Flying the Line 1/2 and or Fate is the Hunter would give them an appreciation of what the old timers did FOR US to make this job worth having.

And it wasn't undercutting other pilot groups. It was "jacking the house" one airline contract at a time. Of course, that requires you to be a bit selfless in the name of the greater good, but that is obviously lost on Virgin, Allegiant and other non-Union pilots.

But, I guess anything for a quick upgrade...

You assume they have heard of such a book as Flying The Line 1/2........:erm:

 

[Bavarian Chef]

Chef
JetBlue got started the same way. 4000 options.
You are an i----.

I know -- there's a lot implied in my posts. Welcome to flightinfo.

 

[fam62c]

I disagree - this seperates the wheat from the chaff. There are no easy choices out there but to undercut wages is short-sighted at best........live with the consequences in the long run. Don't worry you will rationalize that it isn't your fault somehow........

Good luck getting new investors......

What exactly is "undercutting" wages anyway? I mean if a pilot at UAL or USAirways flies a narrowbody aircraft for less than a Southwest pilot are they undercutting wages? Should they quit their jobs rather than working for less than another carrier pays? I mean they do have that option they could "take one for the team" and just leave the profession (not an easy choice as you say but we all have to make tough choices, right) rather than doing the job for less than others get paid to do it; would that make sense to you? That's the choice that you are asking the VA pilots to make. Is it OK for a UAL, USAirways or Alaska pilot to fly a plane for less than a Southwest pilot but not OK for a VA pilot to work for less than a UAL pilot? Where do we draw the line? Is it OK to "undercut" Southwest if you are unionized but not OK if you work for a non-union start-up? I'm sure the narrowbody guys who work for the legacy carriers can "rationalize" working for less than Southwest and say that it's not their fault. When Southwest started they were working harder for less money than their major airline competitors where they wrong to take those jobs? Do YOU want to tell a Southwest pilot with 30 years on the job that he "undercut" the profession and should never have taken the job? Whatever you fly and whoever you fly it for if you are not receiving the highest pay rates in the industry for that size equipment, seat and longevity I recommend that you quit your job to defend the profession rather than undercutting another pilot group.


For the record I don't work for VA, I don't work anywhere anymore but I know what it's like to lose a job after years in the profession. Also, I spent more time and gave more effort as a union officer for more years than 95% of all airline pilots ever will while at my former carrier. I've seen a lot of good people end up on the street through no fault of their own, it's just the luck of the draw in this industry. I'm never going to be the one to judge somebody who needs to provide for their family for taking what work is available when they need a paycheck as long as they don't cross a picket line. It looks a lot different when you're on the inside looking out than when you're on the outside looking in.

Next time you see a VA pilot face to face at least have the guts to tell them that you hope they lose their jobs and end up on the street. It's a lot different to say these things on an anonymous computer forum than it is when you are looking at another pilot who isn't that different from you. I hope you keep your job in this mess, I don't wish hard times on anybody because I know what it feels like. Just remember though, if the circumstances had been different it could be you who was out work and needed a job when times were tough and options were limited. The old saying about not judging someone until you have walked a mile in their shoes was first uttered by someone who was obviously a lot wiser than you. The "wheat from the chaff" my a$$, I don't even know why I bothered to type this; it's not even worth the effort.

 

[Fubijaakr]

What exactly is "undercutting" wages anyway? I mean if a pilot at UAL or USAirways flies a narrowbody aircraft for less than a Southwest pilot are they undercutting wages?

You know I LOVE it when someone uses this example. Both those carriers had their wages reduced BY BANKRUPTCY court to the rates of the NON-Union darling at the time...jetBlue. Or did you forget that?

Should they quit their jobs rather than working for less than another carrier pays? I mean they do have that option they could "take one for the team" and just leave the profession (not an easy choice as you say but we all have to make tough choices, right) rather than doing the job for less than others get paid to do it; would that make sense to you?

No, but they didn't VOLUNTARILY go to a low pay non-Union shop in the first place. Again, those wages were IMPOSED on them by the bankruptcy court at the request of their management. Why? To match the low pay currently in force at jetBlue at the time in order to more effectively "compete".

What is it about that you can't understand?

That's the choice that you are asking the VA pilots to make. Is it OK for a UAL, USAirways or Alaska pilot to fly a plane for less than a Southwest pilot but not OK for a VA pilot to work for less than a UAL pilot?

Not at all. AGAIN, those rates were either imposed by the court or an arbitrator in response to the kind of wages paid by NON-UNION carriers to pilots who VOLUNTARILY went there looking for a job. Pilots who KNEW they were working for substandard wages/benefits but went there anyway in order to either jump ahead to a left seat or for some other reason.

Do YOU want to tell a Southwest pilot with 30 years on the job that he "undercut" the profession and should never have taken the job? Whatever you fly and whoever you fly it for if you are not receiving the highest pay rates in the industry for that size equipment, seat and longevity I recommend that you quit your job to defend the profession rather than undercutting another pilot group.

SWA is unionized. They have negotiated a model contract with a management that is somewhat more enlightened about employee relations than the average airline.

I'm never going to be the one to judge somebody who needs to provide for their family for taking what work is available when they need a paycheck as long as they don't cross a picket line.

Why limit your thinking? Because they're the kind of guys who WOULD cross your picket line.

Next time you see a VA pilot face to face at least have the guts to tell them that you hope they lose their jobs and end up on the street.

Its obvious YOU DO WORK for VA despite your protestations to the contrary.

The old saying about not judging someone until you have walked a mile in their shoes was first uttered by someone who was obviously a lot wiser than you. The "wheat from the chaff" my a$$, I don't even know why I bothered to type this; it's not even worth the effort.

Because you're uniform is black. Just like your morality.

 

[goodgig]

or for some other reason.

Because you're uniform is black. Just like your morality.

And what do you say to the hungry pilot who has a family to feed?

It is what it is. Do you feel that righteous about an engineer who works at a small firm for 60K? Vs. someone at GE who makes 120K?

They both have family's.

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I just don't understand all those "Who have theirs" vs. those who are trying to get theirs.
I would say fight your fight within your fence, and let those in another playground fight a different fight.

 

[Mr.B]

You said it Shrek. What these scumbags either fail to realize or deny outright that it is THEIR actions that are ruining this profession for EVERYBODY.

Perhaps a rereading of Flying the Line 1/2 and or Fate is the Hunter would give them an appreciation of what the old timers did FOR US to make this job worth having.

And it wasn't undercutting other pilot groups. It was "jacking the house" one airline contract at a time. Of course, that requires you to be a bit selfless in the name of the greater good, but that is obviously lost on Virgin, Allegiant and other non-Union pilots.

But, I guess anything for a quick upgrade...

Fate is the Hunter.....classic. Undercutting your fellow aviator or those who follow was unthinkable.

 

[goodgig]

Yeah, well, it's a new world out there.

 

[Shrek]

Used to be based at LAX there famster.......it has been done - tactfully to jumpseat riders.

I am sure you wouldn't believe me but I would expect that from a guy who just "understands that a guy has to feed his family" damned be the consequences. THAT is a very big part of the problem and until it is stopped - wages/benefits/work rules will stagnate....

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I disagree - this seperates the wheat from the chaff. There are no easy choices out there but to undercut wages is short-sighted at best........live with the consequences in the long run. Don't worry you will rationalize that it isn't your fault somehow........

Good luck getting new investors......

Hey Shrek were you at Spirit???

 

[Shrek]

When were you there Pogue?