Virgin America hangs as its hedge fund owners get antsy

[flyipilot]

Obviously.



Then let me make it perfectly clear for you.

1. Your highest paid Captain TODAY makes $100 an hour.

2. That rate is 35% below what our highest paid Captain makes TODAY.

3. We're negotiating a new contract TODAY.

4. Our managment says, "TODAY our biggest competitor is Virgin America. TODAY they have a 30% labor cost advantage. In order to compete with that labor cost advantage TODAY we want you to either take pay cuts OR reduce the cost of your benefits. That way we can compete with Virgin America TODAY on an equal playing field."

Its all about TODAY, Ace. You and your buddies are undercutting my contract TODAY.

Thanks for nothing.

Well, as much as I do agree VA (or Branson really) is lowering the bar for airline pay. I do not agree that VA is a threat to any airline out there. Your company is only using them as a tactic. VA is not even sure they will be here in 90 days form now. So, TODAY, your company should read the news..(and I know very well that they do)..and stop using VA as a barganing tool with your pay rate. They are doing it because they can. VA is ZERO competition with any established airline out there. Let them fill there 3 or 4 planes to capacity, they are losing money on every pushback. But, got to hand it to your company they are very sneaky in trying to get you to believe VA is a threat. Just stall them for a few months.

 

[flyipilot]

You guys can go round and round all you want. Face it, if VA works and you got hired on at VA early it's a great spot to be in. Where else can you make $100/hour and log airbus PIC in your second year. Not to mention you'd be sitting at the top of the seniority list for the rest of your career. Management knows this and that's why they offer the crap pay. For many pilots this is a better deal (although a gamble, but what isn't these days) than waiting to get hired at a major. It's the free market. For better or worse this is what we're stuck with and guys have to make decisions based on their own needs. It is extremely selfish to argue that someone give up an opportunity at a better life when you have nothing to offer other than wait your turn or go away and do something else.

That is very well said. I do not think there is a person on this board who would not take a job at VA if there was nothing else was out there. UA has cut pay and benefits so much; who would ever want to stay there? People do. It pays the bills and it is what you love to do..fly. So, why is a guy trying to make a living at VA any different? One could almost argue that UA really is the culprit at getting pilot pay where it is today. If they were not so greedy back in the late 90's ( slowing down traffic, costing the company tons of cash and almost ALL their business customers) then they would have not filed for BK. Sorry, I like the rest of you want to make $500/hr (who wouldn't) but reality is a pilot is not worth that. If we were, we would be paid that, passengers would pay 4 times the fares today. They never will. If you run your airline right, (ie: SWA), then you can both make money and pay your pilots well. If you run it poorly, (ie: UA), then you fall from grace and screw yourself and others in the industry on the way down. If UA pilots would have done it right back then, VA would pay more today.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Yep, it DOES irritate the pig.

 

[Singlecoil]

Ok everybody, how long will it be before Sir Richard applies for and is granted U.S. Citizenship making the whole subject moot?

 

[Britpilot]

Ok everybody, how long will it be before Sir Richard applies for and is granted U.S. Citizenship making the whole subject moot?

He could do that but then he might have a problem with his UK Business don't you think? Which is more lucrative? VA America or VA Atlantic/Asia/Blue ect?

 

[Green Banana]

tick tock...

 

[Blue Dude]

Ok everybody, how long will it be before Sir Richard applies for and is granted U.S. Citizenship making the whole subject moot?

That might work if he did that AND re-incorporated Virgin Group as a US corporation. I'm not holding my breath. The problem isn't his citizenship; it's that of the controlling corporation.

 

[Q400 Gear Bitch]

4. Our managment says, "TODAY our biggest competitor is Virgin America. TODAY they have a 30% labor cost advantage. In order to compete with that labor cost advantage TODAY we want you to either take pay cuts OR reduce the cost of your benefits. That way we can compete with Virgin America TODAY on an equal playing field."

I find it hard to believe that you believe anything that comes out of Bill Ayer's mouth.

 

[Full of LUV]

This is why ALPA should work to restrict jumpseats to union carriers

That is very well said. I do not think there is a person on this board who would not take a job at VA if there was nothing else was out there. UA has cut pay and benefits so much; who would ever want to stay there? People do. It pays the bills and it is what you love to do..fly. So, why is a guy trying to make a living at VA any different? One could almost argue that UA really is the culprit at getting pilot pay where it is today. If they were not so greedy back in the late 90's ( slowing down traffic, costing the company tons of cash and almost ALL their business customers) then they would have not filed for BK. Sorry, I like the rest of you want to make $500/hr (who wouldn't) but reality is a pilot is not worth that. If we were, we would be paid that, passengers would pay 4 times the fares today. They never will. If you run your airline right, (ie: SWA), then you can both make money and pay your pilots well. If you run it poorly, (ie: UA), then you fall from grace and screw yourself and others in the industry on the way down. If UA pilots would have done it right back then, VA would pay more today.

You see, VA operates largely off the graces of other airlines jumpseats. If the union wants to uphold the profession, then there ought to be standards or minimums of contract provisions before professionals are allowed to jumpseat on a fellow union carrier. I can't believe even the UAL or AK mgt is happy knowing that they supply a free flight to the majority of VA and JB workers on a daily basis. Quite ironic in a way.
Luv

 

[Full of LUV]

Oops double post......

 

[Blue Dude]

You see, VA operates largely off the graces of other airlines jumpseats. If the union wants to uphold the profession, then there ought to be standards or minimums of contract provisions before professionals are allowed to jumpseat on a fellow union carrier. I can't believe even the UAL or AK mgt is happy knowing that they supply a free flight to the majority of VA and JB workers on a daily basis. Quite ironic in a way.

Maybe they allow it because VA and JB supply their pilots with a ride to work on their jumpseats? You don't want to go there with a jumpseat war. If you do, then you'd logically have to exclude union pilots who have contract terms significantly poorer than yours, even poorer than the nonunion guys you're upset with. Friggin' leeches, almost as bad as scabs. Then maybe you should exclude anyone who recently took concessions. That makes your own negotiations harder, right? What were they thinking? Here's a concession: start driving, buddy! Maybe you should just not carry anyone who competes with you at all. Yeah, that's the ticket! Screw those guys anyway.

But good luck getting to work yourself. Hope you don't commute or live offline. Or have any friends or coworkers who do. But that's their problem I guess.

Now do you see why you don't want to start a jumpseat war? Keep the airline politics out of jumpseat policy. Use the opportunity to educate the other guy if you must (Lord knows some of our guys need to hear it), but let him ride. You might both learn something.

 

[Daytonaflyer]

Never ever in the history of American aviation has an major airline pilot group ever taken a pay cut due to lower wages at their competitor. That is a management tactic with absolutely no basis. And you guys have fallen for their rhetoric.

It has never happened, it never will happen. A company could easily recoup the cost of paying industry standard wages by raising their ticket prices a mere $0.50 per ticket. There are dozens of ways a company can easily compensate for the competitor's lower pay scale. That is a mathematical statistic; it is fact, yet your management universally choose not to.

Do you think pilots like being paid less than their competitors? Of course not. Instead of bashing others all the time, why don't you union guys do something constructive and help the other airlines get a union or negotiate a better pay scale? Negotiating takes a huge amount of volunteer cooperation. It's a lot easier to get volunteers to help out when you have 5000 pilots than when you have 200.

 

[ualdriver]

Never ever in the history of American aviation has an major airline pilot group ever taken a pay cut due to lower wages at their competitor. That is a management tactic with absolutely no basis. And you guys have fallen for their rhetoric.

Daytona will you stop posting this tripe? Seriously. I already explained to you (twice) how the low wages of our competitors significantly dragged down the wages at my airline. I saw it FIRST HAND. So did guys at Delta, US Air, American, Northwest, etc.

You're only posting ridiculous stuff like this because you work for Allegiant and your contract is worse than VA's.

 

[Singlecoil]

Never ever in the history of American aviation has an major airline pilot group ever taken a pay cut due to lower wages at their competitor. That is a management tactic with absolutely no basis. And you guys have fallen for their rhetoric.

It has never happened, it never will happen. A company could easily recoup the cost of paying industry standard wages by raising their ticket prices a mere $0.50 per ticket. There are dozens of ways a company can easily compensate for the competitor's lower pay scale. That is a mathematical statistic; it is fact, yet your management universally choose not to.

Do you think pilots like being paid less than their competitors? Of course not. Instead of bashing others all the time, why don't you union guys do something constructive and help the other airlines get a union or negotiate a better pay scale? Negotiating takes a huge amount of volunteer cooperation. It's a lot easier to get volunteers to help out when you have 5000 pilots than when you have 200.

Wrong. Alaska had binding arbitration until the award in 2005 came out. The contract at that time had an industry average formula that looked at the pay of comparator airlines. I took a 34% pay cut and got a profit sharing check in the same year. My pay cut was directly as a result of other airlines giving concessions. Binding arbitration is now a thing of the past at Alaska.

 

[Bavarian Chef]

If the union wants to uphold the profession, then there ought to be standards or minimums of contract provisions before professionals are allowed to jumpseat on a fellow union carrier.

I work at JB, and I actually agree with you.