Virgin America Approved

[Beetle007]

But sometimes you need to take the job to put food on the table for a family of four. I can't say no to a job offer and let my kids starve.

BTW - you realize that is same argument scabs make during a strike. This is not the Great Depression we are talking about, there are plenty of jobs out there.


We can name bash the pilots at the startups all we want, but it isn't going to help anything. The best thing we can do is convince them to organize ASAP and get them into the organized labor family. Startup airlines labor isn't going to buy the cow (organize) if they can get the milk for free.

 

[A350]

If jumpseating is a union privilege, why then do all non-union airlines allow jumpseating and it took the DAL guys 20 years of bargaining to get jumpseating on their own planes?

Inquiring minds want to know.

A350

 

[Beetle007]

If jumpseating is a union privilege, why then do all non-union airlines allow jumpseating and it took the DAL guys 20 years of bargaining to get jumpseating on their own planes?

Inquiring minds want to know.

A350

Good point.

Do you think this industries pay and benefits would be higher or lower if Unions were NEVER created?

On a side note - I think the threat/possibility of labor organizing has resulted in improved pay and benefits at many airlines and companies.

 

[TDK90]

I'm considering applying to Virgin Atlantic.

I think you mean Virgin America chief, Virgin Atlantic is a whole different animal.....

 

[bigboy]

You are very shortsighted. Look past year one and think long term.[/quote

Long Term?!

5th year UA A320 Capt pay is 121$
5th year VA A320 Capt pay is 120$

No pilot should be refused the jumpseat unless they are a SCAB.
Just a thought.

Fly safe.

Bigboy.

 

[USC***]

Sorry I did mean Virgin America.

I'm not short sited. I understand that 10 years down the road, you'd probably make more money at one of the Legacies. But going through a bankrupcy would make life tough on the family. I can't sell my house in the current housing market. We bought in the peak and the value has dropped a bunch. Just bad luck. I couldn't afford the mortgage with a $25,000 first year salary at Continental. Enough of the sob story of my life, I'm just making a point that you can't blame a guy for not taking a job that pays 25K the first year when he has a family.

Other points make sense and I agree. VA guys probably shouldn't have union benefits without one themselves. I currently have a charter/corporate background, so don't know too much about union benefits, but if jumpseating is one of them, then I say thats fair the VA pilots shouldn't be allowed until they unionize.

Just curious, why would VA guys not want to form a union if it would allow for possibly greater pay and jumpseat benefits??? I'm not trying to be a jerk, just trying to understand how it works.

 

[ualdriver]

Dont take it out on the pilots and deny them the jumpseats. It's not their fault the industry is the way it is. I'd love to make as much money as possible. But sometimes you need to take the job to put food on the table for a family of four. I can't say no to a job offer and let my kids starve.

I'm considering applying to Virgin Atlantic. None of the other airlines have been knocking down my door to interview me so I'm left with not much choice. Besides, Continental isn't too much better anyway. I couldn't survive on $25,000 the first year. Thats fine for the single guy with no kids thats 25-30. But for the guy that's 40 and two kids, not possible. AT VA, $45,000 isn't great the first year either, but it sure is better than $25,000 at Continental and United (if they ever hire).

Dont blame the pilots and not allow them to go to work. Just a thought.

Instead of writing on a forum such as this, perhaps you could write a letter to the management team at Virgin? Maybe you could explain to them that as a professional in the airline industry with years of experience, the wages they offer are so low that it makes it impossible for a professional such as yourself to even think about moving to the company's domicile? Maybe you could explain to them that there are many quality pilots who would like to work at Virgin, but their compensation package makes that impossible? Maybe you could explain to them that the Bay area has historically been an area with many upstart companies and government agencies and that few of the professionals in those entities are asked to make such a large sacrifice in compensation to help subsidize the bottom line of those new corporations?

Further, perhaps you could mention that there are ways that companies such as Virgin can compete in the airline marketplace without having to resort to discount airline pilot wages? Perhaps you could ask them to consider the wages at the high end of the narrowbody spectrum as a starting point for compensating their professionals instead of undercutting the lower end?

Just me thinking out loud, I guess. Good luck with your job search. I would re-evaluate your decision about Continental vs. Virgin and expected long term compensation, but that's just me. I expect that if airlines like Virgin and Skybus "go forth and multiply" that during the next round of inevitable concessions in the industry, I will be in the same situation you are now.

 

[USC***]

The scab point can be reversed back on any Major Airline pilot that accepted the concessions. Why did you and your Union accept lower wages when the airlines forced all the concessions on you? Maybee you and every other airline pilot should have quit and gone for a higher paying corporate job? Why do you insist on working for the low wages at a legacy carrier when you could fly for more money flying corporate somewhere? Does that make you a scab since you work for less pay than you could earns somewhere else? There are plenty of corporate gigs at all the United hubs, San Fran, Denver, Chicago, Washington. Most of the good ones pay more than the airline pilots get if you don't mind being on a pager.

So if I take a job working for less money, it may make me unlucky, but I'm not a scab. Just a victim of circumstance!

I'm being funny here, but my point is it would be nice if every job paid us $300,000/yr and we only worked 5 days/mo. But thats not the case.

Anyway, I'm leaning on just holding onto my current job until some airline decides to treat people right and pay better wages. I'll be holding my breath until then!!! Thanks for the info guys!

 

[Fly4hire]

Yes it is about JB and every other carrier's pilots out there that feel the repercussions because you have taken the position that you are above these people. Every time I meet someone with your attitude it sickens me. You talk about rationalization to defend one's position...my gawd man...take a look in the mirror. Every time you post it is the same 'ol same 'ol, blame someone else for your misfortunes.

I'm not above anyone. I am tired of all these high road positions that mask the real issue - Your indignation is about one thing and one thing only - protecting your perceived ability to commute, specifically offline. You don't give a rat's ass about the profession other than protecting your own selfish ability to commute to work. Who cares if another version of JB comes along and sets the bar even lower - so long as you can get to work. Maybe when JB is history you'll work at Skybus and make the same noise about whomever lowers it another order of magnitude. Don't buy it.

 

[Beetle007]

I'm not short sited. I understand that 10 years down the road, you'd probably make more money at one of the Legacies.

I currently have a charter/corporate background, so don't know too much about union benefits, but if jumpseating is one of them, then I say thats fair the VA pilots shouldn't be allowed until they unionize.

Just curious, why would VA guys not want to form a union if it would allow for possibly greater pay and jumpseat benefits??? I'm not trying to be a jerk, just trying to understand how it works.

Companies like Skybus and Virgin America will make life 10 years down the road difficult for all pilots. It is not really a question of better/worse career choice. It is a question of better/worse for the industry. 5 years ago Northwest A320 captains could make 220 hr and Jetblue made 130ish. Now northwest A320 captains top out at 138 (less than the Jetblue top). Today Skybus captains make 65hr so what do you think Northwest captains will make in 5 years if Skybus expands as planned? Northwest FOs used to make 130k a year and Skybus salary is 30k.

To be honest, Jumpseating isn't really a union benefit, but something has to be used to convince these startups to organize and stop all our salaries from dropping like a rock.

The reason they won't organize is because they won't want to rock the boat. They will all upgrade quickly and will be happy for the next 5 years. But one day the music will stop and a skybus A319 first officer will be stuck making 30K (their posted FO salary) for 10+ years. 5 years ago an A320 FO at NWA could make 130k. That extra 100k yr makes a difference.

 

[A350]

When are you guys going to get off the mathematical equation that UNION=HIGH WAGES?

The two do not go hand in hand......so what if JB unionizes. Will we make any more money? Maybe, maybe not.

For starters, my loyalty goes to the company I work for. The profession is second. Why? Because the company is my profession. If I hold the profession in higher regard than the company and the company fails, I start over at the bottom somewhere else and literally start over. The profession would benefit, but not me. You who want to start a jumpseat war over wages/unions are fighting the wrong people. Your career hinges on a healthy company and profession.....they can go hand in hand.

I didn't see any of the legacy guys willing to shutter the doors on their companies during the BK process.....I would be more than willing to bet it was because no one wants to start over...better to live and fight later when the time is right.

A350

 

[ualdriver]

When are you guys going to get off the mathematical equation that UNION=HIGH WAGES?

I probably won't get off it because generally, it does. And better work rules, too. For example, do you think that if JetBlue unionized say, 3 years ago, that the pilot group would have agreed to $80/hr rate for a jet that is basically a 737? Do you think that the JetBlue pilots would have negotiated at least inflationary adjustments to their contract over the past several years? If you don't believe me, ask your new CEO if a union = higher wages. Also, you can read the "risk" section of JetBlue's stock prospectus and it is implied there as well.


The two do not go hand in hand......so what if JB unionizes. Will we make any more money? Maybe, maybe not.

You're right. That's the choice of your pilot group. Maybe there are more important issues than money for you guys. I bet yor E190 rates, at a minimum, would come up though.


I didn't see any of the legacy guys willing to shutter the doors on their companies during the BK process.....I would be more than willing to bet it was because no one wants to start over...better to live and fight later when the time is right.

Of course there are always guys who live paycheck to paycheck and would never vote to shutter the doors. Or maybe even strike if it ever came to that.

The problem with the legacies should have "shuttered the door" argument is that it wouldn't have "fixed the problem" and would have accomplished nothing in the long term. For example, US Air was the first to go into bankruptcy. If the employees there had said, "we're not taking one dollar in concessions of any sort" the company would have been liquidated. The balance of the carriers would have grown into that void, but the end result would still be we'd have a $120/hr. JetBlue Captain with no retirement bleeding the next legacy to death with their $220/hr+pension+cushy work rules. So the guy that "takes a stand" and shutters his own company has to go work for a JetBlue, an Airtran, or a Frontier for the same wages that he could have just had in place had they simply agreed to lower the pay to the new low bar set by the LCC's and get back to competing at their own company.

That's partly why you didn't see any legacies "taking one for the team." It wasn't necessary, and it would have accomplished nothing. We all just came to the realization that the marketplace has changed, the market has no place for a $220/hr+pension+good work rule narrowbody airline pilot anymore, and if we want to compete with the new "LCC" reality, you have to take the hit as employees and compete or go out of business.

 

[A350]

We will just always disagree......there is nothing to be gained from a jumpseat war. You can choose to not negotiate with the new LCC's a reciprocal jumpseat agreement.....and in the end another nail will be installed in the coffin of this profession. Union or non-union....high or low pay, it is the most disgusting display of arrogance I can think of. It sure must be nice to sit in the left seat and pontificate to some poor bastard who got his a$$ handed to him in a BK or liquidation and had to start over. Of course, you and the others would rather he went to ALDI to be a cashier rather than do what they love.

Have fun with it. BTW....Since you wont be allowing any VA or Skybus guys on your flights, I hope you will keep the hypocrisy to a minimum and stay off theirs.

A350

 

[Old School 737]

This industry screwed up long ago. Pilots should have made it a closed community like a Doctor. You have to be board certified and all that crap. No outsiders. Airlines wan't a pilot, you come to the association/board and get one. Wages would be higher and there would not be a pilot surplus because the current pilots would not allow it. Also pay would be basically the same for like equipment. Much higher and steady, less up and down. Would have helped if the industry was never deregulated as well.

 

[bigboy]

Companies like Skybus and Virgin America will make life 10 years down the road difficult for all pilots.

People were saying the same about Southwest in the 80's and 90's, and FEDEX in the 70's and 80's.


Look at them now!!