Virgin America Approved

[Fly4hire]

Holy $hite.....a NWA guy crooning about a UNION?

You guys flew right through a major strike by your brother and sister UNION mechanics and you want to start a jumpseat war with the LCC's?

AMFA wanted a raise, and for the pilots to take a cut to fund it. Hardly enamoring of brotherly love. They also killed, by the executive stroke of their Prez, a better contract percentage wise for the mechanics than the pilots got so as to keep their membership numbers up with the newly incorporated acft cleaners who were making twice what your regional F/O makes. NWA said no dice to the cleaners and the rest is a sad history. Would you have gone on strike to protect a janitor that made more than $50K/yr in today's world?

Where do you think JB and AT found some of these eager new pilots? They are castaways from the legacies. Again, you want us to sit on the sidelines and help you recover your lost wages and bennies when you discarded most of us like yesterday's junk mail? I think not.

Not at all. But don't expect me to continue help you enable those wages on my back by helping the ULCC's propagate. BTW the "you" that furloughed you was your management, not your MEC. As to having discarded furloughed pilots, we gave them 2 yrs medical, passes, got them equity (some considerably more than they ever made W2). What we, nor any other MEC did, was be held hostage for further concessions to "buy" you back.

Giving another professional the courtesy of a ride to work or a ride home has always been OUTSIDE the realm of competition

Actually it's not. DAL only got it in the last 10 years - and it cost them to get it. The JS was not near as wide spread 20 yrs ago as now, and it was a hard won UNION negotiated benefit. That bears remembering.

In the meantime, you are always welcome to ride with me, even though the NWA guys have been less than nice to some of my brothers.

JB and Airtran are already part of the landscape. The history is just that, but the lessons learned should not be. I don't think you want to see further concessions anymore than I do, and LCC's are not immune to the next under bidder.

I would not be so fast to consider VA and Skybus "brothers". If you want to give a pilot a hand getting to work (or DH'ing for free) to help the next generation of ULCC erode our negotiated contracts further be my guest. I hope many of us don't.

 

[flyboyzii]

Oh no!!! You mean if I get hired then the ALPA chest thumpers won't like me?? Oh darn!! Whatever shall I do??

 

[HighSpeedClimb]

I would encourage every ALPA pilot to deny employees at these (VA, Skybus)carriers the JS even if they do manage to get reciprocal negotiated. I don't give a r@#$% if they ever worked for an ALPA carrier in a previous life. You will be giving them a ride to work to slit your throat, and you'll see it come back to haunt you the next time your company comes looking for concessions and uses them in the contract comparison. JB redux, unfortunately that pig has already left the stall.

Denying the JS is not the solution.. I will welcome these two carriers if they want a ride. These carriers will continue to pop up whether you deny them or not.
Allegient starting Capt pay in $61/hr
Sun Country is $33/hr second year only $77/hr
MaxJet is $90,000/yr for a 767 driver
Republic $61/hr
ExpressJet $60/hr
Xtra Airways $58,000/yr
North American $68,000/yr
These are first year, yet some don't improve much there after. Are we going to deny them the JS too. I doubt it, at least I won't..And I'm in ALPA.
I'm not happy with the low salaries either, but denying the JS isn't the answer.

 

[ualdriver]

Denying the JS is not the solution.. I will welcome these two carriers if they want a ride. Grow up guys..These carriers will continue to pop up whether you deny them or not. Allegient starting Capt pay in $61/hr, Sun Country is $33/hr second year only $77/hr, MaxJet is $90,000/yr for a 767 driver, Republic $61/hr, ExpressJet $60/hr, are we going to deny them the JS too. I doubt it, at least I won't..And I'm in ALPA.

I don't think that each individual ALPA pilot should be following their own policy. And I don't see the point in bumping a RJ guy whose job exists because we ALPA carriers allowed them to have those jobs through our scope clauses, right or wrong.

Yeah, the Allegiant's and MaxJet's of the world will continue to pop up. But maybe they'll have a harder time finding pilots willing to work for flagrantly poor wages if they know they'll have a tough time getting to work? Maybe that will help apply upward pressure on entry level wages? I don't think we'll ever see ALPA/union industry-wide pay rates, for example, but a good, consistent ALPA/union jumpseat policy that makes it harder for these bottom feeding non-union operations to exist (i.e. hire commuting pilots) I think would help us all.

 

[AA717driver]

You gonna kick Compass pilots off the jumpseat? Hell, why didn't you NWA guys hold the line and take the company down rather than work for a crap contract?

I guess it's different since you already worked there... TC

 

[A350]

Jumpseat a union benefit....perhaps at the union carriers. However, the jumpseat was part of some of the LCC's out of the box, no questions asked, no strings attached. Multiple cabin jumpseats out of the box as well with reciprocal agreements for inflight crewmembers as well? LOL.

As far as what the mechanics at NWA wanted, it is water under the bridge. You flew through a union strike and as the same time advocate a union action to uphold the profession. Hardly trade unionism at its finest. Would I strike for a $50K janitor? No. But I wouldn't get on here and demand unionism or death either.

You can deny jumpseats all you want....pure professionalism at its best. Of course, he won't deny a Compass guy cus that would hurt HIS company.

A350

 

[IndyGTP]

AMFA wanted a raise, and for the pilots to take a cut to fund it. Hardly enamoring of brotherly love. They also killed, by the executive stroke of their Prez, a better contract percentage wise for the mechanics than the pilots got so as to keep their membership numbers up with the newly incorporated acft cleaners who were making twice what your regional F/O makes. NWA said no dice to the cleaners and the rest is a sad history. Would you have gone on strike to protect a janitor that made more than $50K/yr in today's world?

WRONG! Before you go blabbing about something you know little about. NWA saw the strike threats with USAir and UAL mechanics and didn't want to deal with there own. They planned the strike breaker more then a year in advance. NWA laid down a louzy offer to cut jobs and pay to save $120 million. AMFA counter-offered with a plan to save $100 million annually and then all the sudden NWA claims, "due economic conditions we need $200 million in annual savings." The strike had nothing to do with a raise. If NWA pilots stuck with the mechs there would be no Compass Airline. Are you going to let a Compass Pilot JS? Afterall they will be flying your DC9 replacement craft for half the pay.

The cleaners at NWA were topped out at $15/hr after 8 years. $31,000/yr isn't jack! It's barely enough to get by, especially in cities like LAX and Detroit.

 

[hawk996]

A neighbor of mine who is a police officer asked me a few years ago "Why don't pilots attend other pilots deaths like police officers do when one falls in the line of duty". I think if he read this forum, he would have the answer.

Some of you guys make me sick. Grow up. Be a professional, give them a ride and show them how a high paid pilot should act. Treat them like a human, show off your airline and how good you have it. If the guy asking for a ride likes what he see's, maybe he will apply at your high paying airline and leave his low paying airline for yours.

It takes more energy to be an A$$ then it does to me nice.

Why make this job harder then it should be?

 

[Booster]

Bravo Hawk

 

[Fly4hire]

A neighbor of mine who is a police officer asked me a few years ago "Why don't pilots attend other pilots deaths like police officers do when one falls in the line of duty".

Uhh....we don't die in the line of duty very often as airline pilots? I went to far too many funeral services when I was in the military.

Grow up. Be a professional, give them a ride and show them how a high paid pilot should act. Treat them like a human, show off your airline and how good you have it.

Clueless. We were paid a hell of a lot more before the LCC phenom and those pay scales were used against us while over the barrel in Ch 11. Most legacy pilots took ~50% cuts between pay, benefit, and position, never mind the pensions.

If the guy asking for a ride likes what he see's, maybe he will apply at your high paying airline and leave his low paying airline for yours.

Or maybe you'll be giving him a ride to work to help his/her companies business model which is to underbid and bleed yours until you fail then enjoy the float. It's happened in a number of industries. The pilot may be a regular Joe trying to put food on the table, but his company is trying to profit at your expense. Unfortunately the the two are inseparable.

Like someone else mentioned - it's like giving a thief a ride to your bank so he can rob it. I'm sure many thief's have families and are nice folks also.

 

[Beetle007]

Im not sure if greeting them with open arms is how you encourage them to unionize. Go into any other unionized industry and offer to work for half the wages and see what happens.

Why not simply ONLY have jumpseat agreements with other unionized airlines. I think that would be more of a motivation for airlines to unionize.

Although this would probably backfire because then they (non-union pilots) would all live in base and be much happier than the rest of us =). Of course, the cost of living is rather high in California for those Virgin America pilots. Maybe they would demand higher wages if they didn't have jumpseat benefits.

 

[WalterSobchak]

Some of you union guys are worse than Mormons, Evangelical Christians, and Emperor P-ALPA-tine in your efforts to convert the non-union guys. It's quite entertaining.

As long as I'm chuckling at my own joke...

Emperor P-ALPA-tine...new nickname for Capt. John Prater?

 

[AA717driver]

Like someone else mentioned - it's like giving a thief a ride to your bank so he can rob it. I'm sure many thief's have families and are nice folks also.

But you guys at NWA/Compass are taking money out of other pilot's pockets. APA is gonna have to fight their management because they hold out YOUR contract as "the competition". TC

 

[ualdriver]

Im not sure if greeting them with open arms is how you encourage them to unionize. Go into any other unionized industry and offer to work for half the wages and see what happens.

Why not simply ONLY have jumpseat agreements with other unionized airlines. I think that would be more of a motivation for airlines to unionize.

Although this would probably backfire because then they (non-union pilots) would all live in base and be much happier than the rest of us =). Of course, the cost of living is rather high in California for those Virgin America pilots. Maybe they would demand higher wages if they didn't have jumpseat benefits.

Beetle007, I agree with you. I don't know who you work for but perhaps you should pass a resolution at your next council meeting stating that you do not believe that your unionized carrier should have reciprocal jumpseats with non-union carriers? You don't even have to be at the council meeting to floor a resolution.

 

[A350]

Yeah, I am sure you would like to proffer that resolution at the next UAL council meeting......see how far you get with that one.

You see, in a jumpseat war, EVERYONE loses. It doesn't matter whether you commute or not. If you screw another pilot out of a ride home, to work, or God forbid something worse like a family emergency, it will come back to you in spades. The only people you will hurt is your fellow crew members.

Our pilot forefathers would roll over in their graves if they heard the $hite that drools from your mouths.....Tools to the last one of you.

Enjoy what you have sown.

A350

 

[ualdriver]

Yeah, I am sure you would like to proffer that resolution at the next UAL council meeting......see how far you get with that one.

You see, in a jumpseat war, EVERYONE loses. It doesn't matter whether you commute or not. If you screw another pilot out of a ride home, to work, or God forbid something worse like a family emergency, it will come back to you in spades. The only people you will hurt is your fellow crew members.

Our pilot forefathers would roll over in their graves if they heard the $hite that drools from your mouths.....Tools to the last one of you.

Enjoy what you have sown.

A350

My war isn't with the pilots. My war is with the managements, especially at non-union carriers that insult my peers with 65K/year Airbus Captain positions. I don't think that an ALPA jumpseat should be used to enable these managments to properly staff their airlines with pathetically low wages. Pilots commute nowadays because the pay is SO LOW that it doesn't make sense for one to uproot his/her family to move for a 95K/yr. Airbus Captain job in SFO, for example. Not a problem for this new generation of robber baron managements, however. You're friendly neighborhood ALPA/SWAPA/Teamster union pilot will make sure that his underpaid employee will get to work on time!

If that Skybus or Virgin pilot has the theoretical "family emergency" then perhaps his/her employer can "take care of their own" and make sure that said employee gets to where he/she needs to go with a positive space ticket? Maybe that's how an airline should treat its professionals?

 

[A350]

ualdriver:

What rock did you just crawl out from under?

There have been high and low paid UNION pilots all over the country for some time now.

SWA pilots were some of the lowest paid pilots in the industry for years, especially when it came to their major airline counterparts. And they are UNION......

You see, union doesn't guarantee anything. ALPA itself has high paid and low paid pilots flying the same equipment. Go look at airline pilot central and look at some of the union rates out there.

Again, you need to wake up and smell what you shovel. The only robber baron management I know of is at these bankrupt mainline carriers who steal from their employees and line their pockets with the difference. (insert UAL, DAL, AAA, and NWA.) Then they conveniently blame JB, AAI, and any other LCC out there for their problems. And you buy into it.

BTW...I am sure it is in your ALPA contract that if you have to get to the most obscure point on the map for a family emergency that your airline will pay for you to get there.

A350

 

[Beetle007]

Our pilot forefathers would roll over in their graves if they heard the $hite that drools from your mouths.....Tools to the last one of you. Enjoy what you have sown.

A350

I was talking to my grandpa this weekend (Retired Eastern Pilot) and he was surprised my company had a jumpseat agreement with Delta. He said that Delta never had a jumpseat agreement with Eastern (due to hostility). My point - Hostility is nothing new to this industry. No one is rolling over in any graves.

Legacy airlines (and other unionized airlines) are not obligated to offer jumpseat agreements with any airline trying to further undercut the industry. Non-union airlines are a threat to unionized airlines and should be treated as such.

There is nothing morally wrong with Virgin America or their pilots (this is America), but there is also nothing morally wrong for admonishing pilots for further undercutting the industry (again - this is America).

A jumpseat war is when you deny someone from an airline with a legitimate jumpseat agreement. I would never advocate this. I am saying there shouldn’t be a jumpseat agreement in the first place.

 

[Huck]

Wasn't the hostility because Delta couldn't reciprocate?

My pop was NWA and he quit jumpseating on EAL for the same reason - catching sh!t because NWA didn't have jumpseat rights at the time....

As for the LCC's - I was at Gemini when we unionized. ONE GUY getting denied by an ALPA captain and it would have hurt our organizing. Jesus - you'd think we'd be guying these guys beers and throwing parties, trying to get them into the fold.

The bottom line - you honestly think an unemployed pilot, stacking lumber at Home Depot, is going to turn down ANY flying job just because he'll have trouble jumpseating? Has it been that long ago for some of you, since you were looking for a job?

 

[hawk996]

Thanks for the education guys, I now know that the LCC cost me my job at brand "X" and had nothing to do with the over paid management team that ran it into the ground. The LCC airlines held all the major airline pilot hostage until they voted yes on their pay cutting contracts.

Don't hate the players, hate the game.

Alpa did nothing to help me find a new job when my Alpa carrier kicked us to the curb. A non-union carrier had a "FREE" job fair to help us out. All Alpa had to offer was a High-Cost magizine subscribtion to make my morning study time pass by!

Once again, Thanks for the education guys. I'll quit my job next week at my non-union carrier so you can sleep better.