Virgin America Approved

[9rj9]

take a look in the mirror

No one is talking AT or the Feeds that fly at industry rates. If you don't see the issue with a group of pilots flying 130 seat jets at 70 seat wages I don't know what to tell you. Allegient or Midwest (and AT) are niche players. Skybus and VA are a lower form of JB and are out to change the industry paradigm just as JB did, but another order of magnitude lower. For all the chest thumping about how JB or AT pays more than legacies now, that was not the case before JB helped shift the curve. As to JS wars, no I don't advocate that as normal policy. I also firmly believe that the JS is a negotiated privilege, not a birthright. I have heard LCC pilots talk with glee about they are going to put XYZ legacy out of business with their all too trendy wave of the future airline. Why should we give them a ride to work to accomplish that goal?

Why not encourge them to join the Union instead of blaming them for the legacy woes. AirTran, Jetblue and the like didn't cause USair, UA, NW, DL to go bankrupt; poor management, business model shifted and they were slow to respond. While wages may be the first or second biggest expense, the actual difference between legacy and LCC is small. I think its mostly ego, the legacy doesn't want to give up one pax to a new LCC route and will spend millions to save a nickel. Why not blame Delta, half of their flying is done by a regional partner, they gave up the 70 seat scope and soon will give the 100 seat to the lowest bidder. USair gave it all away, retirement and pay lower than JB.
So take a look in the mirror before you start a jumpseat war, you just might end up with a wage war.

 

[Jonny Sacko]

whore

 

[xray678]

I disagree about using the jumpseat as a weapon. Airlines like Virgin or Skybus are detrimental not only to our pay scales, but they will end up hurting all the established carriers in the industry. I have no problem with someone starting a new airline. I do have a problem with the pilots who accept those jobs at way below the going rate.

It would be a whole lot harder for Virgin to get pilots at the wages they are offering if those pilots could not commute to work on our airlines. Sorry, but no Virgin or Skybus pilot will be getting a ride on my jumpseat.

 

[Fly4hire]

Why not encourage them to join the Union instead of blaming them for the legacy woes.......AirTran, Jetblue and the like didn't cause USair, UA, NW, DL to go bankrupt; poor management, business model shifted and they were slow to respond.

I'm not blaming them - but they are a significant contributing factor. The legacy carriers did not adapt quickly enough to a changing environment that included the LCC's, and the LCC's had the advantage of low initial costs, in significant part due to their wages and extremely favorable leases (those low initial cost are coming home to roost in spades at JB). The legacies saw they had to remake themselves to compete with the LCC, including wages and benefits. To say JB and new LCC entrants have no impact is hogwash. For JB and AT pilots to say you are just as low as us is completely disingenuous and naive. To blame the pilots who accepted these concessionary contracts under Ch 11 is even more pernicious coming from pilots at the LCC's who accepted these wages as they sung kum-ba-ya with the LCC managements.

While wages may be the first or second biggest expense, the actual difference between legacy and LCC is small. I think its mostly ego, the legacy doesn't want to give up one pax to a new LCC route and will spend millions to save a nickel

Funny, NWA has lower operating costs and higher yields than JB as we emerge from Ch 11.

While hard to separate here, it's not the pilots I blame, however they are combatants at an enemy corporation. Our respective employers would like nothing more than to point to the ULLC's (ultra low cost carrier) as the model they have to follow to stay competitive. Again VA and Skybus represent a completely different threat than do the feeders or small niche carriers. These guys are out to remake the industry as much as JB did.

If we don't make a concerted effort to ensure that carriers of the likes of VA and Skybus do not succeed with the help of benevolent pilots giving them a free ride to work we will continue to look at the downward spiral of pattern bargaining.

Nothing personal to the pilots who work there, but nothing would be better for this industry for the LCC model to collapse. (That's OK, I know you were counting on the death of the legacy's for your benefit) There are some hopeful signs this may be underway at JB.

Give em' a ride to work? It's about a lot more than just being nice to another aviator.......

 

[A350]

Holy $hite.....a NWA guy crooning about a UNION?

You guys flew right through a major strike by your brother and sister UNION mechanics and you want to start a jumpseat war with the LCC's?

Don't look now, but I think you just sunk to a new low.

Where do you think JB and AT found some of these eager new pilots? They are castaways from the legacies. Again, you want us to sit on the sidelines and help you recover your lost wages and bennies when you discarded most of us like yesterday's junk mail? I think not.

Giving another professional the courtesy of a ride to work or a ride home has always been OUTSIDE the realm of competition. He/she is just another schlep trying to do his job and provide for his family. If you don't like how we are doing it, you are entitled to your opinion. In the meantime, you are always welcome to ride with me, even though the NWA guys have been less than nice to some of my brothers.

A350

 

[Fly4hire]

Holy $hite.....a NWA guy crooning about a UNION?

You guys flew right through a major strike by your brother and sister UNION mechanics and you want to start a jumpseat war with the LCC's?

AMFA wanted a raise, and for the pilots to take a cut to fund it. Hardly enamoring of brotherly love. They also killed, by the executive stroke of their Prez, a better contract percentage wise for the mechanics than the pilots got so as to keep their membership numbers up with the newly incorporated acft cleaners who were making twice what your regional F/O makes. NWA said no dice to the cleaners and the rest is a sad history. Would you have gone on strike to protect a janitor that made more than $50K/yr in today's world?

Where do you think JB and AT found some of these eager new pilots? They are castaways from the legacies. Again, you want us to sit on the sidelines and help you recover your lost wages and bennies when you discarded most of us like yesterday's junk mail? I think not.

Not at all. But don't expect me to continue help you enable those wages on my back by helping the ULCC's propagate. BTW the "you" that furloughed you was your management, not your MEC. As to having discarded furloughed pilots, we gave them 2 yrs medical, passes, got them equity (some considerably more than they ever made W2). What we, nor any other MEC did, was be held hostage for further concessions to "buy" you back.

Giving another professional the courtesy of a ride to work or a ride home has always been OUTSIDE the realm of competition

Actually it's not. DAL only got it in the last 10 years - and it cost them to get it. The JS was not near as wide spread 20 yrs ago as now, and it was a hard won UNION negotiated benefit. That bears remembering.

In the meantime, you are always welcome to ride with me, even though the NWA guys have been less than nice to some of my brothers.

JB and Airtran are already part of the landscape. The history is just that, but the lessons learned should not be. I don't think you want to see further concessions anymore than I do, and LCC's are not immune to the next under bidder.

I would not be so fast to consider VA and Skybus "brothers". If you want to give a pilot a hand getting to work (or DH'ing for free) to help the next generation of ULCC erode our negotiated contracts further be my guest. I hope many of us don't.

 

[flyboyzii]

Oh no!!! You mean if I get hired then the ALPA chest thumpers won't like me?? Oh darn!! Whatever shall I do??

 

[HighSpeedClimb]

I would encourage every ALPA pilot to deny employees at these (VA, Skybus)carriers the JS even if they do manage to get reciprocal negotiated. I don't give a r@#$% if they ever worked for an ALPA carrier in a previous life. You will be giving them a ride to work to slit your throat, and you'll see it come back to haunt you the next time your company comes looking for concessions and uses them in the contract comparison. JB redux, unfortunately that pig has already left the stall.

Denying the JS is not the solution.. I will welcome these two carriers if they want a ride. These carriers will continue to pop up whether you deny them or not.
Allegient starting Capt pay in $61/hr
Sun Country is $33/hr second year only $77/hr
MaxJet is $90,000/yr for a 767 driver
Republic $61/hr
ExpressJet $60/hr
Xtra Airways $58,000/yr
North American $68,000/yr
These are first year, yet some don't improve much there after. Are we going to deny them the JS too. I doubt it, at least I won't..And I'm in ALPA.
I'm not happy with the low salaries either, but denying the JS isn't the answer.

 

[ualdriver]

Denying the JS is not the solution.. I will welcome these two carriers if they want a ride. Grow up guys..These carriers will continue to pop up whether you deny them or not. Allegient starting Capt pay in $61/hr, Sun Country is $33/hr second year only $77/hr, MaxJet is $90,000/yr for a 767 driver, Republic $61/hr, ExpressJet $60/hr, are we going to deny them the JS too. I doubt it, at least I won't..And I'm in ALPA.

I don't think that each individual ALPA pilot should be following their own policy. And I don't see the point in bumping a RJ guy whose job exists because we ALPA carriers allowed them to have those jobs through our scope clauses, right or wrong.

Yeah, the Allegiant's and MaxJet's of the world will continue to pop up. But maybe they'll have a harder time finding pilots willing to work for flagrantly poor wages if they know they'll have a tough time getting to work? Maybe that will help apply upward pressure on entry level wages? I don't think we'll ever see ALPA/union industry-wide pay rates, for example, but a good, consistent ALPA/union jumpseat policy that makes it harder for these bottom feeding non-union operations to exist (i.e. hire commuting pilots) I think would help us all.

 

[AA717driver]

You gonna kick Compass pilots off the jumpseat? Hell, why didn't you NWA guys hold the line and take the company down rather than work for a crap contract?

I guess it's different since you already worked there... TC

 

[A350]

Jumpseat a union benefit....perhaps at the union carriers. However, the jumpseat was part of some of the LCC's out of the box, no questions asked, no strings attached. Multiple cabin jumpseats out of the box as well with reciprocal agreements for inflight crewmembers as well? LOL.

As far as what the mechanics at NWA wanted, it is water under the bridge. You flew through a union strike and as the same time advocate a union action to uphold the profession. Hardly trade unionism at its finest. Would I strike for a $50K janitor? No. But I wouldn't get on here and demand unionism or death either.

You can deny jumpseats all you want....pure professionalism at its best. Of course, he won't deny a Compass guy cus that would hurt HIS company.

A350

 

[IndyGTP]

AMFA wanted a raise, and for the pilots to take a cut to fund it. Hardly enamoring of brotherly love. They also killed, by the executive stroke of their Prez, a better contract percentage wise for the mechanics than the pilots got so as to keep their membership numbers up with the newly incorporated acft cleaners who were making twice what your regional F/O makes. NWA said no dice to the cleaners and the rest is a sad history. Would you have gone on strike to protect a janitor that made more than $50K/yr in today's world?

WRONG! Before you go blabbing about something you know little about. NWA saw the strike threats with USAir and UAL mechanics and didn't want to deal with there own. They planned the strike breaker more then a year in advance. NWA laid down a louzy offer to cut jobs and pay to save $120 million. AMFA counter-offered with a plan to save $100 million annually and then all the sudden NWA claims, "due economic conditions we need $200 million in annual savings." The strike had nothing to do with a raise. If NWA pilots stuck with the mechs there would be no Compass Airline. Are you going to let a Compass Pilot JS? Afterall they will be flying your DC9 replacement craft for half the pay.

The cleaners at NWA were topped out at $15/hr after 8 years. $31,000/yr isn't jack! It's barely enough to get by, especially in cities like LAX and Detroit.

 

[hawk996]

A neighbor of mine who is a police officer asked me a few years ago "Why don't pilots attend other pilots deaths like police officers do when one falls in the line of duty". I think if he read this forum, he would have the answer.

Some of you guys make me sick. Grow up. Be a professional, give them a ride and show them how a high paid pilot should act. Treat them like a human, show off your airline and how good you have it. If the guy asking for a ride likes what he see's, maybe he will apply at your high paying airline and leave his low paying airline for yours.

It takes more energy to be an A$$ then it does to me nice.

Why make this job harder then it should be?

 

[Booster]

Bravo Hawk

 

[Fly4hire]

A neighbor of mine who is a police officer asked me a few years ago "Why don't pilots attend other pilots deaths like police officers do when one falls in the line of duty".

Uhh....we don't die in the line of duty very often as airline pilots? I went to far too many funeral services when I was in the military.

Grow up. Be a professional, give them a ride and show them how a high paid pilot should act. Treat them like a human, show off your airline and how good you have it.

Clueless. We were paid a hell of a lot more before the LCC phenom and those pay scales were used against us while over the barrel in Ch 11. Most legacy pilots took ~50% cuts between pay, benefit, and position, never mind the pensions.

If the guy asking for a ride likes what he see's, maybe he will apply at your high paying airline and leave his low paying airline for yours.

Or maybe you'll be giving him a ride to work to help his/her companies business model which is to underbid and bleed yours until you fail then enjoy the float. It's happened in a number of industries. The pilot may be a regular Joe trying to put food on the table, but his company is trying to profit at your expense. Unfortunately the the two are inseparable.

Like someone else mentioned - it's like giving a thief a ride to your bank so he can rob it. I'm sure many thief's have families and are nice folks also.