Virgin America Approved

[Beetle007]

We need some strong leadership to bring this labor ship back on course.

I was reading your previous posts Hawker, and I agree that independence pilots should have been brought to Compass. Northwest management expected this to happen, so why hasn't the union fought for it?

 

[ualdriver]

What rock did you just crawl out from under?

I'm a very well informed pilot. I attend union meetings and hold my leaders accountable. I make a great effort to learn about what goes on in the industry, which includes trolling boards such as these. I go to great lengths to understand the business fundamentals that make the airline industry tick and have read quite a few (boring) books on the subject, not because I particularly enjoy the subject, but I want to make informed opinions when it comes to evaluating a company and determining what they can "afford" to pay me or not pay me. I'm an ALPA volunteer, and volunteer my time for the benefit of my peers. That's the rock I crawled under from.

How about you? Who do you work for? What have you done for the profession? If someone doesn't hold the same opinion as you, do you always try to insult them, or just in this instance?

There have been high and low paid UNION pilots all over the country for some time now.

True. And at least as Union pilots, pilots have a voice. And I guarantee if the Skybus guys were ALPA or Teamsteer or Skybus Pilot association members, they wouldn't stand for 65K/year wages. And if they vote for that as a union, that's there right and I say welcome to my union jumpseat. But if their management wants to use low, non-union wages to slice the throat of me or my peers who are just trying to hand on to what they have, I'll direct them to your jumpseat. The Skybus management guys thank you in advance for help.

SWA pilots were some of the lowest paid pilots in the industry for years, especially when it came to their major airline counterparts. And they are UNION......

And they'd be welcome on my union jumpseat whether they make more than me or less than me.


You see, union doesn't guarantee anything. ALPA itself has high paid and low paid pilots flying the same equipment. Go look at airline pilot central and look at some of the union rates out there.

I agree. See above.

Again, you need to wake up and smell what you shovel. The only robber baron management I know of is at these bankrupt mainline carriers who steal from their employees and line their pockets with the difference. (insert UAL, DAL, AAA, and NWA.) Then they conveniently blame JB, AAI, and any other LCC out there for their problems. And you buy into it.

Actually, I don't buy into anything anyone tells me. I look at both sides of an argument and make an informed opinion. If you really think that LCC wages/workrules had NOTHING to do with the downward spiral of legacy pilot wages/workrules/retirement, then I can understand why you're not concerned about Skybus or Allegiant or Virgin. It must have been just a big coincidence that all of our contracts look amazingly similar to JetBlue, Airtran's, and Frontier's.


BTW...I am sure it is in your ALPA contract that if you have to get to the most obscure point on the map for a family emergency that your airline will pay for you to get there.

It's nowhere in the contract. But I know first hand that as adversarial our management/pilot relationship is, they'll get me home positive space.

A350, I've responded to your questions. Will you now answer mine, please?

1) Who do you work for?
2) Are you concerned about wage levels at airlines like Skybus, Virgin, and Allegiant?

I''ll look forward to your answers.

 

[A350]

1. JetBlue....after 14+ years of USAir.
2. No....

If you take my post as an insult....you need to thicken up that hide.

Your arguement about being union and holding up some standard doesn't hold water. If Skybus offered union membership right out of the box with the "contract" that they have now and voted for it, you claim you wouldn't mind them on your jumpseat. I cry BS on that one. You'd still be PO'ed that they are undercutting you. Many union members have contracts that aren't much to talk about.....they don't deny you jumpseats because you make more and can afford a ticket, do they? Are you telling me that you wouldn't take a ride home from an Allegiant, Virgin, JetBlue, or Skybus crew?

All in the name of a union....not your union, just any union? How many Indy Air pilots attended the non-union JetBlue job fair after they shut down and now call JetBlue home? How many Indy Air pilots work at Virgin America? Getting a non-union pilot to want to be a union pilot will only work if you show them the benefits of being a union pilot. Denying them a ride to work or refusing to sign reciprocal agreements with them will only make them think twice about unions.

Years back the Midway MEC Chairman, who retired as a UAL pilot, advocating the practice of welcoming non-union pilots on their jumpseats....to show professionalism, courtesy, and the ins and outs of union membership. What would he think of your so called plan to take it back?

A350

 

[ualdriver]

It's not that I take it as insult. I just find making comments like you did as the refuge for people who can't make and defend a point. Usually, if I want to have an intelligent debate, I try to refrain from making any statements that may be deemed derogatory by my sparring partner. That's just me although somewhere there are examples of slip-ups on my part I'm sure.

If Skybus was a Union carrier, and after organizing they only agreed to 65K for an A319 Captain position (very highly unlikely), I would be PO'd. Big time. But that's how democracy works. I don't get my way all the time, I won't like their decision, but at least they had input into their fate and I'd be comfortable about letting them on my jumpseat.

Besides, it's too hard to determine who has a "better" contract and using that determination as to whether or not one guy rides. For example, you hear guys complaining about Continental 1st year pay and lack of benefits for the first 6 months and therefore they're a "bottom feeder." Some could look at my contract and find one aspect of it and call me a "bottom feeder." That's why I'd probaby use the union designation as a discriminator rather than an arbitrary judgement of my contract versus someone elses'.

I'd settle for any nationally recognized, AFL-CIO union. I don't necessarily think my Union (ALPA) is for everyone. I think some airlines, such as yours, would be better off with an in-house Union as there are many airline refugees there who blame ALPA for what has happened in the industry, mostly unfairly because they lack a firm understanding of airline business fundamentals and how it affected the legacies in the early 2000's. So ALPA probably wouldn't "fit" into your culture. But an in-house Union might. I'm not holding my breath.

Sorry you lost your job at US Air and were forced to start your career again. I fear that may be me, too, within a decade if airlines like Skybus and Virgin gain critical mass. Unlike you I guess, I am very concerned about both Skybus and Virgin pay rates.

 

[A350]

UAL:

Thanks for the kind words....

You will forgive the veracity of my posts....but I take jumpseating very, VERY seriously. (And I commute online) When it gets mentioned like it has on this thread, I get very PO'ed, very fast. When an pilot presents themselves for a ride on my airplane, I am completely color blind as to who they work for. They are trying to make a living just like I am and it isn't so easy as it used to be. It is the one sacred ground IMO that we all or at least most of us share. I thoroughly enjoy sharing a cockpit with another airline pilot because when you listen to the stories and experiences of another, you gain perspective that you wouldn't ordinarily have. That isn't a bad thing.

IMO, the union of preference (ALPA) had better get its house in order....My fear for the rest of us is not so much VA or Skybus, but the threat of mergers, acquisitions, and the seniority integration or lack thereof. Nothing will kill your career quicker. There will always be LCC's out there and there will always be someone trying to build a better mousetrap.

A350

 

[SaabStory]

UAL:

Thanks for the kind words....

You will forgive the veracity of my posts....but I take jumpseating very, VERY seriously. (And I commute online) When it gets mentioned like it has on this thread, I get very PO'ed, very fast. When an pilot presents themselves for a ride on my airplane, I am completely color blind as to who they work for. They are trying to make a living just like I am and it isn't so easy as it used to be. It is the one sacred ground IMO that we all or at least most of us share. I thoroughly enjoy sharing a cockpit with another airline pilot because when you listen to the stories and experiences of another, you gain perspective that you wouldn't ordinarily have. That isn't a bad thing.

IMO, the union of preference (ALPA) had better get its house in order....My fear for the rest of us is not so much VA or Skybus, but the threat of mergers, acquisitions, and the seniority integration or lack thereof. Nothing will kill your career quicker. There will always be LCC's out there and there will always be someone trying to build a better mousetrap.

A350

I think we all need to read this post...then read it again & again. Well said.

 

[IB6 UB9]

UAL:

Thanks for the kind words....

You will forgive the veracity of my posts....but I take jumpseating very, VERY seriously. (And I commute online) When it gets mentioned like it has on this thread, I get very PO'ed, very fast. When an pilot presents themselves for a ride on my airplane, I am completely color blind as to who they work for. They are trying to make a living just like I am and it isn't so easy as it used to be. It is the one sacred ground IMO that we all or at least most of us share. I thoroughly enjoy sharing a cockpit with another airline pilot because when you listen to the stories and experiences of another, you gain perspective that you wouldn't ordinarily have. That isn't a bad thing.

IMO, the union of preference (ALPA) had better get its house in order....My fear for the rest of us is not so much VA or Skybus, but the threat of mergers, acquisitions, and the seniority integration or lack thereof. Nothing will kill your career quicker. There will always be LCC's out there and there will always be someone trying to build a better mousetrap.

A350

Thank you for that post...my headache from this pathetic thread is going away now after reading it. It has taken quite a lot of constraint to refrain from coming into this thread with guns blazing after reading through this. There are some who need a complete overhaul of their mindset, and you have eloquently responded with the voice of reason. Fly4hire, you and your sidekick display what is really wrong in our ranks. I find it hard to believe that after all that has gone on there is still this line of thinking...and this level of arrogance. I do see a trend though, the ones who ratified the worst contracts are the most vocal in blaming someone else for their woes. I will be the last person to toot my horn, but you must acknowledge that without a union we seem to have got ourselves a fair deal so far ( I say so far as there is still work to do) at a seven yr old carrier. Over at NW you seem to have locked yourselves into a 6 yr contract that...for lack of a better word...sucks. If I am not mistaken the clock on your contract hasn't even started ticking yet...correct? And your only answer is to start a jumpseat war? That's the best you can do? Your management is, as we speak, getting ready to fill their pockets in stock options and bonuses that used to be and/or could be used as your compensation, and your answer is to deny the fugging jumpseat? Thankfully gents like you are few and far between...but it is embarrassing to think that we are in the same profession. BTW, a week after I was denied the jumpseat last year from LGA to DTW, I carried a NW pilot on mine. No questions, no nothing, just "welcome aboard". (Yes, of course we talked about it during the flight, he was appalled it happened.) Your line of thinking is wrong sir, and sad. It is Doug who spends his every waking minute thinking of ways to fugg you, not the pilots of other carriers (some who used to work at yours). Wake up!

 

[Fly4hire]

Your line of thinking is wrong sir, and sad. It is Doug who spends his every waking minute thinking of ways to fugg you, not the pilots of other carriers (some who used to work at yours). Wake up!

I certainly appreciate your position, however I would argue it is you and others who need to wake up.

I do not blame JB for the ills of our contract - they contributed - a subtle but significant difference. Your defense of JB and their being a non-factor is typical of the responses here. This is utter nonsense, and is simply a rationalization of your "working agreement" now that lower wages at the legacies have apparently retroactively vindicated what at the time was sub-standard benefits and compensation.

I also find it disingenuous to lump JB, AT together with the feeders, Allegiant, and other small bit players. JB was a paradigm shifting company in our industry. It has had an undeniable effect on the balance sheet of other airlines, and exerted downward pressure on wages and benefits.

It is also water under the bridge right now - we are talking about the next paradigm shifting competitors, not JB, and frankly I think you have more interest in seeing them fail than than I do. There has been consistent analysis that as the legacies become more competitive, the LCC's are their own fiercest competitors and biggest threats. As the last few months have shown, JB is a house of cards, as are many of the LCC's. Good product, but no depth to weather any serious downturn.

You separate the pilots from the companies as if they were two separate entities. I agree with you the pilots are not the enemy, however their companies are. If we extend the hand of benevolence to help these individuals get a ride to work where they could not otherwise afford to live on the wages their employers pay we validate those companies business models and exert further downward pressure on ourselves. Some say managements must love seeing us devour ourselves with infighting while they prosper at our expense. They probably laugh themselves silly collectively as we willingly help each other lower each others wages with the free travel that enables it.

I agree with the point made that simply not letting them get reciprocal JS is a better strategy than individual JS wars, and I will work to that end. If we can do it the national level so much the better.

 

[A350]

Best of luck with that!

A350

 

[IB6 UB9]

I agree with the point made that simply not letting them get reciprocal JS is a better strategy than individual JS wars, and I will work to that end. If we can do it the national level so much the better.

If you think that is a better idea than taking the "salvation comes from within" route, well, so be it. If it was me I would start with resurrecting my own pathetic contract and working conditions, and I would direct my emotions to the men and women on your own list with the "eat your young position" that resulted in you ratifying your agreement. I would also have a hard time directing blame at furloughed ALPA pilots from other carriers while my own pilots fly through a strike and accept aircraft from scab mechanics. Lastly, and what gets me really grinnin', is this: Why the hypocritical attitude now after years of trying to put pilots of carriers like Sun Country, ATA, Midwest Express on the street? You have a different attitude now that the shoe is on the other foot. By your own account sir, none of these companies should ever allow you on their jumpseat, but because of their continued professionalism I would bet that not one NWA pilot has ever been denied a jumpseat at these carriers. I once again reiterate, I completely disagree with your position, and my jumpseat will be open should you need it. Answer me this, when is the last time you did an off-line commute?

 

[Fly4hire]

I would direct my emotions to the men and women on your own list with the "eat your young position" that resulted in you ratifying your agreement.

Has it occurred to you that perhaps the majority of NWA pilots, that included many junior pilots in order for the TA to pass considered it the least worst choice at the time? Volumes could be written about that.

I would also have a hard time directing blame at furloughed ALPA pilots from other carriers while my own pilots fly through a strike and accept aircraft from scab mechanics.

Funny, the F/A's worked, the IAM not only worked, but took over former AMFA positions as well, and over 600 mechanics eventually crawled back, not to mention those that took supervisory positions before the strike. No mention of that. Perhaps AMFA's position was a little more untenable than meets the eye.

Lastly, and what gets me really grinnin', is this: Why the hypocritical attitude now after years of trying to put pilots of carriers like Sun Country, ATA, Midwest Express on the street? You have a different attitude now that the shoe is on the other foot.

You need some practice in reading comprehension. These carrier's were never a threat to industry standard salaries - they are/were bit players. I don't know why you choose to ignore the distinction. JB was a vanguard moment and helped lower the bar. History. Skybus and VA are not. Let's not repeat the mistake.

Answer me this, when is the last time you did an off-line commute?

Did for several years working at TWA. Commuted for 8 of 12 airline years. BTW, I don't deny JB pilots the JS. This is not about JB.

 

[IB6 UB9]

Did for several years working at TWA. Commuted for 8 of 12 airline years. BTW, I don't deny JB pilots the JS. This is not about JB.

Yes it is about JB and every other carrier's pilots out there that feel the repercussions because you have taken the position that you are above these people. Every time I meet someone with your attitude it sickens me. You talk about rationalization to defend one's position...my gawd man...take a look in the mirror. Every time you post it is the same 'ol same 'ol, blame someone else for your misfortunes.

 

[IB6 UB9]

BTW, I don't deny JB pilots the JS.

What does this statement mean? Does it mean we can go for coffee now that I know you deny the jumpseat to some people trying to get a ride home but you at least don't do it to JB guys?


It's been fun sparring with you sir, but I have to go now. You see, I am furloughed from an ALPA legacy carrier where I used to commute online, but now I commute off-line and I don't want to be late. Cheers.

 

[My Man SMITH!]

I don't deny JB pilots the JS. This is not about JB.

Thank you. I commute on NWA regularly, and have been treated very good. To everyone who has been so kind, I say "Thank you". Last week, a NWA pilot willingly sat in the FA jumpseat to accomodate me, "Thank you" again. Having worked for NWA (as a CSA) in the late 90's, I hoped to stay at the regional level until the company started to hire. Unfortunately that's not the way it worked out. Having been with JetBlue for just under a year, I am very happy here and have no intention on leaving. Who knows what the future holds, but I hope it's in the best interest for all of us!

 

[ualdriver]

I certainly appreciate your position, however I would argue it is you and others who need to wake up.

I do not blame JB for the ills of our contract - they contributed - a subtle but significant difference. Your defense of JB and their being a non-factor is typical of the responses here. This is utter nonsense, and is simply a rationalization of your "working agreement" now that lower wages at the legacies have apparently retroactively vindicated what at the time was sub-standard benefits and compensation.

I also find it disingenuous to lump JB, AT together with the feeders, Allegiant, and other small bit players. JB was a paradigm shifting company in our industry. It has had an undeniable effect on the balance sheet of other airlines, and exerted downward pressure on wages and benefits.

It is also water under the bridge right now - we are talking about the next paradigm shifting competitors, not JB, and frankly I think you have more interest in seeing them fail than than I do. There has been consistent analysis that as the legacies become more competitive, the LCC's are their own fiercest competitors and biggest threats. As the last few months have shown, JB is a house of cards, as are many of the LCC's. Good product, but no depth to weather any serious downturn.

You separate the pilots from the companies as if they were two separate entities. I agree with you the pilots are not the enemy, however their companies are. If we extend the hand of benevolence to help these individuals get a ride to work where they could not otherwise afford to live on the wages their employers pay we validate those companies business models and exert further downward pressure on ourselves. Some say managements must love seeing us devour ourselves with infighting while they prosper at our expense. They probably laugh themselves silly collectively as we willingly help each other lower each others wages with the free travel that enables it.

I agree with the point made that simply not letting them get reciprocal JS is a better strategy than individual JS wars, and I will work to that end. If we can do it the national level so much the better.

Nice post.

 

[USC***]

Dont take it out on the pilots and deny them the jumpseats. It's not their fault the industry is the way it is. I'd love to make as much money as possible. But sometimes you need to take the job to put food on the table for a family of four. I can't say no to a job offer and let my kids starve.

I'm considering applying to Virgin Atlantic. None of the other airlines have been knocking down my door to interview me so I'm left with not much choice. Besides, Continental isn't too much better anyway. I couldn't survive on $25,000 the first year. Thats fine for the single guy with no kids thats 25-30. But for the guy that's 40 and two kids, not possible. AT VA, $45,000 isn't great the first year either, but it sure is better than $25,000 at Continental and United (if they ever hire).

Dont blame the pilots and not allow them to go to work. Just a thought.

 

[Beetle007]

But sometimes you need to take the job to put food on the table for a family of four. I can't say no to a job offer and let my kids starve.

Working as a fast food manager will put food on your kids table (and probably pay as much as most First Officers jobs) However, it is not the pay that bothers me, it attitude of these startup airlines with industry cutting wages. They think/know they can get away with it because you are not union (nor will be in the near future). How will this profession ever recover with startup airlines constantly popping up with lower wages and no union to stop it. I am not anti LCC, I am pro Union.

Rescuers tell you not to go swimming to save a drowning swimmer or you will BOTH drown. If high paying airlines bend over backwards to help out others continue to pay less, we will all have to worry about putting food on our kids tables. At least the fast food manager gets to be home at night to see his kid eat. ​

I'm not saying I wouldn't go to Virgin America or Skybus if I were in your shoes. But, I wouldn't expect union privileges (i.e., jumpseating) until my company unionized. I would support a union at my first chance. Do you honestly think we would have jumpseat benefits without unions (organized labor) in the first place?​

 

[800Dog]

Dont take it out on the pilots and deny them the jumpseats. It's not their fault the industry is the way it is. I'd love to make as much money as possible. But sometimes you need to take the job to put food on the table for a family of four. I can't say no to a job offer and let my kids starve.

I'm considering applying to Virgin Atlantic. None of the other airlines have been knocking down my door to interview me so I'm left with not much choice. Besides, Continental isn't too much better anyway. I couldn't survive on $25,000 the first year. Thats fine for the single guy with no kids thats 25-30. But for the guy that's 40 and two kids, not possible. AT VA, $45,000 isn't great the first year either, but it sure is better than $25,000 at Continental and United (if they ever hire).

Dont blame the pilots and not allow them to go to work. Just a thought.

You are very shortsighted. Look past year one and think long term.

 

[800Dog]

I certainly appreciate your position, however I would argue it is you and others who need to wake up.

I do not blame JB for the ills of our contract - they contributed - a subtle but significant difference. Your defense of JB and their being a non-factor is typical of the responses here. This is utter nonsense, and is simply a rationalization of your "working agreement" now that lower wages at the legacies have apparently retroactively vindicated what at the time was sub-standard benefits and compensation.

I also find it disingenuous to lump JB, AT together with the feeders, Allegiant, and other small bit players. JB was a paradigm shifting company in our industry. It has had an undeniable effect on the balance sheet of other airlines, and exerted downward pressure on wages and benefits.

It is also water under the bridge right now - we are talking about the next paradigm shifting competitors, not JB, and frankly I think you have more interest in seeing them fail than than I do. There has been consistent analysis that as the legacies become more competitive, the LCC's are their own fiercest competitors and biggest threats. As the last few months have shown, JB is a house of cards, as are many of the LCC's. Good product, but no depth to weather any serious downturn.

You separate the pilots from the companies as if they were two separate entities. I agree with you the pilots are not the enemy, however their companies are. If we extend the hand of benevolence to help these individuals get a ride to work where they could not otherwise afford to live on the wages their employers pay we validate those companies business models and exert further downward pressure on ourselves. Some say managements must love seeing us devour ourselves with infighting while they prosper at our expense. They probably laugh themselves silly collectively as we willingly help each other lower each others wages with the free travel that enables it.

I agree with the point made that simply not letting them get reciprocal JS is a better strategy than individual JS wars, and I will work to that end. If we can do it the national level so much the better.

Spot on!

 

[Midge]

Give blood, play hockey!

Sorry for the thread hijack, but I thought that was funny
Midge
former NHL washout!