Virgin America Approved

[SaabStory]

UAL:

Thanks for the kind words....

You will forgive the veracity of my posts....but I take jumpseating very, VERY seriously. (And I commute online) When it gets mentioned like it has on this thread, I get very PO'ed, very fast. When an pilot presents themselves for a ride on my airplane, I am completely color blind as to who they work for. They are trying to make a living just like I am and it isn't so easy as it used to be. It is the one sacred ground IMO that we all or at least most of us share. I thoroughly enjoy sharing a cockpit with another airline pilot because when you listen to the stories and experiences of another, you gain perspective that you wouldn't ordinarily have. That isn't a bad thing.

IMO, the union of preference (ALPA) had better get its house in order....My fear for the rest of us is not so much VA or Skybus, but the threat of mergers, acquisitions, and the seniority integration or lack thereof. Nothing will kill your career quicker. There will always be LCC's out there and there will always be someone trying to build a better mousetrap.

A350

I think we all need to read this post...then read it again & again. Well said.

 

[IB6 UB9]

UAL:

Thanks for the kind words....

You will forgive the veracity of my posts....but I take jumpseating very, VERY seriously. (And I commute online) When it gets mentioned like it has on this thread, I get very PO'ed, very fast. When an pilot presents themselves for a ride on my airplane, I am completely color blind as to who they work for. They are trying to make a living just like I am and it isn't so easy as it used to be. It is the one sacred ground IMO that we all or at least most of us share. I thoroughly enjoy sharing a cockpit with another airline pilot because when you listen to the stories and experiences of another, you gain perspective that you wouldn't ordinarily have. That isn't a bad thing.

IMO, the union of preference (ALPA) had better get its house in order....My fear for the rest of us is not so much VA or Skybus, but the threat of mergers, acquisitions, and the seniority integration or lack thereof. Nothing will kill your career quicker. There will always be LCC's out there and there will always be someone trying to build a better mousetrap.

A350

Thank you for that post...my headache from this pathetic thread is going away now after reading it. It has taken quite a lot of constraint to refrain from coming into this thread with guns blazing after reading through this. There are some who need a complete overhaul of their mindset, and you have eloquently responded with the voice of reason. Fly4hire, you and your sidekick display what is really wrong in our ranks. I find it hard to believe that after all that has gone on there is still this line of thinking...and this level of arrogance. I do see a trend though, the ones who ratified the worst contracts are the most vocal in blaming someone else for their woes. I will be the last person to toot my horn, but you must acknowledge that without a union we seem to have got ourselves a fair deal so far ( I say so far as there is still work to do) at a seven yr old carrier. Over at NW you seem to have locked yourselves into a 6 yr contract that...for lack of a better word...sucks. If I am not mistaken the clock on your contract hasn't even started ticking yet...correct? And your only answer is to start a jumpseat war? That's the best you can do? Your management is, as we speak, getting ready to fill their pockets in stock options and bonuses that used to be and/or could be used as your compensation, and your answer is to deny the fugging jumpseat? Thankfully gents like you are few and far between...but it is embarrassing to think that we are in the same profession. BTW, a week after I was denied the jumpseat last year from LGA to DTW, I carried a NW pilot on mine. No questions, no nothing, just "welcome aboard". (Yes, of course we talked about it during the flight, he was appalled it happened.) Your line of thinking is wrong sir, and sad. It is Doug who spends his every waking minute thinking of ways to fugg you, not the pilots of other carriers (some who used to work at yours). Wake up!

 

[Fly4hire]

Your line of thinking is wrong sir, and sad. It is Doug who spends his every waking minute thinking of ways to fugg you, not the pilots of other carriers (some who used to work at yours). Wake up!

I certainly appreciate your position, however I would argue it is you and others who need to wake up.

I do not blame JB for the ills of our contract - they contributed - a subtle but significant difference. Your defense of JB and their being a non-factor is typical of the responses here. This is utter nonsense, and is simply a rationalization of your "working agreement" now that lower wages at the legacies have apparently retroactively vindicated what at the time was sub-standard benefits and compensation.

I also find it disingenuous to lump JB, AT together with the feeders, Allegiant, and other small bit players. JB was a paradigm shifting company in our industry. It has had an undeniable effect on the balance sheet of other airlines, and exerted downward pressure on wages and benefits.

It is also water under the bridge right now - we are talking about the next paradigm shifting competitors, not JB, and frankly I think you have more interest in seeing them fail than than I do. There has been consistent analysis that as the legacies become more competitive, the LCC's are their own fiercest competitors and biggest threats. As the last few months have shown, JB is a house of cards, as are many of the LCC's. Good product, but no depth to weather any serious downturn.

You separate the pilots from the companies as if they were two separate entities. I agree with you the pilots are not the enemy, however their companies are. If we extend the hand of benevolence to help these individuals get a ride to work where they could not otherwise afford to live on the wages their employers pay we validate those companies business models and exert further downward pressure on ourselves. Some say managements must love seeing us devour ourselves with infighting while they prosper at our expense. They probably laugh themselves silly collectively as we willingly help each other lower each others wages with the free travel that enables it.

I agree with the point made that simply not letting them get reciprocal JS is a better strategy than individual JS wars, and I will work to that end. If we can do it the national level so much the better.

 

[A350]

Best of luck with that!

A350

 

[IB6 UB9]

I agree with the point made that simply not letting them get reciprocal JS is a better strategy than individual JS wars, and I will work to that end. If we can do it the national level so much the better.

If you think that is a better idea than taking the "salvation comes from within" route, well, so be it. If it was me I would start with resurrecting my own pathetic contract and working conditions, and I would direct my emotions to the men and women on your own list with the "eat your young position" that resulted in you ratifying your agreement. I would also have a hard time directing blame at furloughed ALPA pilots from other carriers while my own pilots fly through a strike and accept aircraft from scab mechanics. Lastly, and what gets me really grinnin', is this: Why the hypocritical attitude now after years of trying to put pilots of carriers like Sun Country, ATA, Midwest Express on the street? You have a different attitude now that the shoe is on the other foot. By your own account sir, none of these companies should ever allow you on their jumpseat, but because of their continued professionalism I would bet that not one NWA pilot has ever been denied a jumpseat at these carriers. I once again reiterate, I completely disagree with your position, and my jumpseat will be open should you need it. Answer me this, when is the last time you did an off-line commute?

 

[Fly4hire]

I would direct my emotions to the men and women on your own list with the "eat your young position" that resulted in you ratifying your agreement.

Has it occurred to you that perhaps the majority of NWA pilots, that included many junior pilots in order for the TA to pass considered it the least worst choice at the time? Volumes could be written about that.

I would also have a hard time directing blame at furloughed ALPA pilots from other carriers while my own pilots fly through a strike and accept aircraft from scab mechanics.

Funny, the F/A's worked, the IAM not only worked, but took over former AMFA positions as well, and over 600 mechanics eventually crawled back, not to mention those that took supervisory positions before the strike. No mention of that. Perhaps AMFA's position was a little more untenable than meets the eye.

Lastly, and what gets me really grinnin', is this: Why the hypocritical attitude now after years of trying to put pilots of carriers like Sun Country, ATA, Midwest Express on the street? You have a different attitude now that the shoe is on the other foot.

You need some practice in reading comprehension. These carrier's were never a threat to industry standard salaries - they are/were bit players. I don't know why you choose to ignore the distinction. JB was a vanguard moment and helped lower the bar. History. Skybus and VA are not. Let's not repeat the mistake.

Answer me this, when is the last time you did an off-line commute?

Did for several years working at TWA. Commuted for 8 of 12 airline years. BTW, I don't deny JB pilots the JS. This is not about JB.

 

[IB6 UB9]

Did for several years working at TWA. Commuted for 8 of 12 airline years. BTW, I don't deny JB pilots the JS. This is not about JB.

Yes it is about JB and every other carrier's pilots out there that feel the repercussions because you have taken the position that you are above these people. Every time I meet someone with your attitude it sickens me. You talk about rationalization to defend one's position...my gawd man...take a look in the mirror. Every time you post it is the same 'ol same 'ol, blame someone else for your misfortunes.

 

[IB6 UB9]

BTW, I don't deny JB pilots the JS.

What does this statement mean? Does it mean we can go for coffee now that I know you deny the jumpseat to some people trying to get a ride home but you at least don't do it to JB guys?


It's been fun sparring with you sir, but I have to go now. You see, I am furloughed from an ALPA legacy carrier where I used to commute online, but now I commute off-line and I don't want to be late. Cheers.

 

[My Man SMITH!]

I don't deny JB pilots the JS. This is not about JB.

Thank you. I commute on NWA regularly, and have been treated very good. To everyone who has been so kind, I say "Thank you". Last week, a NWA pilot willingly sat in the FA jumpseat to accomodate me, "Thank you" again. Having worked for NWA (as a CSA) in the late 90's, I hoped to stay at the regional level until the company started to hire. Unfortunately that's not the way it worked out. Having been with JetBlue for just under a year, I am very happy here and have no intention on leaving. Who knows what the future holds, but I hope it's in the best interest for all of us!

 

[ualdriver]

I certainly appreciate your position, however I would argue it is you and others who need to wake up.

I do not blame JB for the ills of our contract - they contributed - a subtle but significant difference. Your defense of JB and their being a non-factor is typical of the responses here. This is utter nonsense, and is simply a rationalization of your "working agreement" now that lower wages at the legacies have apparently retroactively vindicated what at the time was sub-standard benefits and compensation.

I also find it disingenuous to lump JB, AT together with the feeders, Allegiant, and other small bit players. JB was a paradigm shifting company in our industry. It has had an undeniable effect on the balance sheet of other airlines, and exerted downward pressure on wages and benefits.

It is also water under the bridge right now - we are talking about the next paradigm shifting competitors, not JB, and frankly I think you have more interest in seeing them fail than than I do. There has been consistent analysis that as the legacies become more competitive, the LCC's are their own fiercest competitors and biggest threats. As the last few months have shown, JB is a house of cards, as are many of the LCC's. Good product, but no depth to weather any serious downturn.

You separate the pilots from the companies as if they were two separate entities. I agree with you the pilots are not the enemy, however their companies are. If we extend the hand of benevolence to help these individuals get a ride to work where they could not otherwise afford to live on the wages their employers pay we validate those companies business models and exert further downward pressure on ourselves. Some say managements must love seeing us devour ourselves with infighting while they prosper at our expense. They probably laugh themselves silly collectively as we willingly help each other lower each others wages with the free travel that enables it.

I agree with the point made that simply not letting them get reciprocal JS is a better strategy than individual JS wars, and I will work to that end. If we can do it the national level so much the better.

Nice post.

 

[USC***]

Dont take it out on the pilots and deny them the jumpseats. It's not their fault the industry is the way it is. I'd love to make as much money as possible. But sometimes you need to take the job to put food on the table for a family of four. I can't say no to a job offer and let my kids starve.

I'm considering applying to Virgin Atlantic. None of the other airlines have been knocking down my door to interview me so I'm left with not much choice. Besides, Continental isn't too much better anyway. I couldn't survive on $25,000 the first year. Thats fine for the single guy with no kids thats 25-30. But for the guy that's 40 and two kids, not possible. AT VA, $45,000 isn't great the first year either, but it sure is better than $25,000 at Continental and United (if they ever hire).

Dont blame the pilots and not allow them to go to work. Just a thought.

 

[Beetle007]

But sometimes you need to take the job to put food on the table for a family of four. I can't say no to a job offer and let my kids starve.

Working as a fast food manager will put food on your kids table (and probably pay as much as most First Officers jobs) However, it is not the pay that bothers me, it attitude of these startup airlines with industry cutting wages. They think/know they can get away with it because you are not union (nor will be in the near future). How will this profession ever recover with startup airlines constantly popping up with lower wages and no union to stop it. I am not anti LCC, I am pro Union.

Rescuers tell you not to go swimming to save a drowning swimmer or you will BOTH drown. If high paying airlines bend over backwards to help out others continue to pay less, we will all have to worry about putting food on our kids tables. At least the fast food manager gets to be home at night to see his kid eat. ​

I'm not saying I wouldn't go to Virgin America or Skybus if I were in your shoes. But, I wouldn't expect union privileges (i.e., jumpseating) until my company unionized. I would support a union at my first chance. Do you honestly think we would have jumpseat benefits without unions (organized labor) in the first place?​

 

[800Dog]

Dont take it out on the pilots and deny them the jumpseats. It's not their fault the industry is the way it is. I'd love to make as much money as possible. But sometimes you need to take the job to put food on the table for a family of four. I can't say no to a job offer and let my kids starve.

I'm considering applying to Virgin Atlantic. None of the other airlines have been knocking down my door to interview me so I'm left with not much choice. Besides, Continental isn't too much better anyway. I couldn't survive on $25,000 the first year. Thats fine for the single guy with no kids thats 25-30. But for the guy that's 40 and two kids, not possible. AT VA, $45,000 isn't great the first year either, but it sure is better than $25,000 at Continental and United (if they ever hire).

Dont blame the pilots and not allow them to go to work. Just a thought.

You are very shortsighted. Look past year one and think long term.

 

[800Dog]

I certainly appreciate your position, however I would argue it is you and others who need to wake up.

I do not blame JB for the ills of our contract - they contributed - a subtle but significant difference. Your defense of JB and their being a non-factor is typical of the responses here. This is utter nonsense, and is simply a rationalization of your "working agreement" now that lower wages at the legacies have apparently retroactively vindicated what at the time was sub-standard benefits and compensation.

I also find it disingenuous to lump JB, AT together with the feeders, Allegiant, and other small bit players. JB was a paradigm shifting company in our industry. It has had an undeniable effect on the balance sheet of other airlines, and exerted downward pressure on wages and benefits.

It is also water under the bridge right now - we are talking about the next paradigm shifting competitors, not JB, and frankly I think you have more interest in seeing them fail than than I do. There has been consistent analysis that as the legacies become more competitive, the LCC's are their own fiercest competitors and biggest threats. As the last few months have shown, JB is a house of cards, as are many of the LCC's. Good product, but no depth to weather any serious downturn.

You separate the pilots from the companies as if they were two separate entities. I agree with you the pilots are not the enemy, however their companies are. If we extend the hand of benevolence to help these individuals get a ride to work where they could not otherwise afford to live on the wages their employers pay we validate those companies business models and exert further downward pressure on ourselves. Some say managements must love seeing us devour ourselves with infighting while they prosper at our expense. They probably laugh themselves silly collectively as we willingly help each other lower each others wages with the free travel that enables it.

I agree with the point made that simply not letting them get reciprocal JS is a better strategy than individual JS wars, and I will work to that end. If we can do it the national level so much the better.

Spot on!

 

[Midge]

Give blood, play hockey!

Sorry for the thread hijack, but I thought that was funny
Midge
former NHL washout!