Virgin America Approved

[Beetle007]

Im not sure if greeting them with open arms is how you encourage them to unionize. Go into any other unionized industry and offer to work for half the wages and see what happens.

Why not simply ONLY have jumpseat agreements with other unionized airlines. I think that would be more of a motivation for airlines to unionize.

Although this would probably backfire because then they (non-union pilots) would all live in base and be much happier than the rest of us =). Of course, the cost of living is rather high in California for those Virgin America pilots. Maybe they would demand higher wages if they didn't have jumpseat benefits.

 

[WalterSobchak]

Some of you union guys are worse than Mormons, Evangelical Christians, and Emperor P-ALPA-tine in your efforts to convert the non-union guys. It's quite entertaining.

As long as I'm chuckling at my own joke...

Emperor P-ALPA-tine...new nickname for Capt. John Prater?

 

[AA717driver]

Like someone else mentioned - it's like giving a thief a ride to your bank so he can rob it. I'm sure many thief's have families and are nice folks also.

But you guys at NWA/Compass are taking money out of other pilot's pockets. APA is gonna have to fight their management because they hold out YOUR contract as "the competition". TC

 

[ualdriver]

Im not sure if greeting them with open arms is how you encourage them to unionize. Go into any other unionized industry and offer to work for half the wages and see what happens.

Why not simply ONLY have jumpseat agreements with other unionized airlines. I think that would be more of a motivation for airlines to unionize.

Although this would probably backfire because then they (non-union pilots) would all live in base and be much happier than the rest of us =). Of course, the cost of living is rather high in California for those Virgin America pilots. Maybe they would demand higher wages if they didn't have jumpseat benefits.

Beetle007, I agree with you. I don't know who you work for but perhaps you should pass a resolution at your next council meeting stating that you do not believe that your unionized carrier should have reciprocal jumpseats with non-union carriers? You don't even have to be at the council meeting to floor a resolution.

 

[A350]

Yeah, I am sure you would like to proffer that resolution at the next UAL council meeting......see how far you get with that one.

You see, in a jumpseat war, EVERYONE loses. It doesn't matter whether you commute or not. If you screw another pilot out of a ride home, to work, or God forbid something worse like a family emergency, it will come back to you in spades. The only people you will hurt is your fellow crew members.

Our pilot forefathers would roll over in their graves if they heard the $hite that drools from your mouths.....Tools to the last one of you.

Enjoy what you have sown.

A350

 

[ualdriver]

Yeah, I am sure you would like to proffer that resolution at the next UAL council meeting......see how far you get with that one.

You see, in a jumpseat war, EVERYONE loses. It doesn't matter whether you commute or not. If you screw another pilot out of a ride home, to work, or God forbid something worse like a family emergency, it will come back to you in spades. The only people you will hurt is your fellow crew members.

Our pilot forefathers would roll over in their graves if they heard the $hite that drools from your mouths.....Tools to the last one of you.

Enjoy what you have sown.

A350

My war isn't with the pilots. My war is with the managements, especially at non-union carriers that insult my peers with 65K/year Airbus Captain positions. I don't think that an ALPA jumpseat should be used to enable these managments to properly staff their airlines with pathetically low wages. Pilots commute nowadays because the pay is SO LOW that it doesn't make sense for one to uproot his/her family to move for a 95K/yr. Airbus Captain job in SFO, for example. Not a problem for this new generation of robber baron managements, however. You're friendly neighborhood ALPA/SWAPA/Teamster union pilot will make sure that his underpaid employee will get to work on time!

If that Skybus or Virgin pilot has the theoretical "family emergency" then perhaps his/her employer can "take care of their own" and make sure that said employee gets to where he/she needs to go with a positive space ticket? Maybe that's how an airline should treat its professionals?

 

[A350]

ualdriver:

What rock did you just crawl out from under?

There have been high and low paid UNION pilots all over the country for some time now.

SWA pilots were some of the lowest paid pilots in the industry for years, especially when it came to their major airline counterparts. And they are UNION......

You see, union doesn't guarantee anything. ALPA itself has high paid and low paid pilots flying the same equipment. Go look at airline pilot central and look at some of the union rates out there.

Again, you need to wake up and smell what you shovel. The only robber baron management I know of is at these bankrupt mainline carriers who steal from their employees and line their pockets with the difference. (insert UAL, DAL, AAA, and NWA.) Then they conveniently blame JB, AAI, and any other LCC out there for their problems. And you buy into it.

BTW...I am sure it is in your ALPA contract that if you have to get to the most obscure point on the map for a family emergency that your airline will pay for you to get there.

A350

 

[Beetle007]

Our pilot forefathers would roll over in their graves if they heard the $hite that drools from your mouths.....Tools to the last one of you. Enjoy what you have sown.

A350

I was talking to my grandpa this weekend (Retired Eastern Pilot) and he was surprised my company had a jumpseat agreement with Delta. He said that Delta never had a jumpseat agreement with Eastern (due to hostility). My point - Hostility is nothing new to this industry. No one is rolling over in any graves.

Legacy airlines (and other unionized airlines) are not obligated to offer jumpseat agreements with any airline trying to further undercut the industry. Non-union airlines are a threat to unionized airlines and should be treated as such.

There is nothing morally wrong with Virgin America or their pilots (this is America), but there is also nothing morally wrong for admonishing pilots for further undercutting the industry (again - this is America).

A jumpseat war is when you deny someone from an airline with a legitimate jumpseat agreement. I would never advocate this. I am saying there shouldn’t be a jumpseat agreement in the first place.

 

[Huck]

Wasn't the hostility because Delta couldn't reciprocate?

My pop was NWA and he quit jumpseating on EAL for the same reason - catching sh!t because NWA didn't have jumpseat rights at the time....

As for the LCC's - I was at Gemini when we unionized. ONE GUY getting denied by an ALPA captain and it would have hurt our organizing. Jesus - you'd think we'd be guying these guys beers and throwing parties, trying to get them into the fold.

The bottom line - you honestly think an unemployed pilot, stacking lumber at Home Depot, is going to turn down ANY flying job just because he'll have trouble jumpseating? Has it been that long ago for some of you, since you were looking for a job?

 

[hawk996]

Thanks for the education guys, I now know that the LCC cost me my job at brand "X" and had nothing to do with the over paid management team that ran it into the ground. The LCC airlines held all the major airline pilot hostage until they voted yes on their pay cutting contracts.

Don't hate the players, hate the game.

Alpa did nothing to help me find a new job when my Alpa carrier kicked us to the curb. A non-union carrier had a "FREE" job fair to help us out. All Alpa had to offer was a High-Cost magizine subscribtion to make my morning study time pass by!

Once again, Thanks for the education guys. I'll quit my job next week at my non-union carrier so you can sleep better.

 

[Beetle007]

We need some strong leadership to bring this labor ship back on course.

I was reading your previous posts Hawker, and I agree that independence pilots should have been brought to Compass. Northwest management expected this to happen, so why hasn't the union fought for it?

 

[ualdriver]

What rock did you just crawl out from under?

I'm a very well informed pilot. I attend union meetings and hold my leaders accountable. I make a great effort to learn about what goes on in the industry, which includes trolling boards such as these. I go to great lengths to understand the business fundamentals that make the airline industry tick and have read quite a few (boring) books on the subject, not because I particularly enjoy the subject, but I want to make informed opinions when it comes to evaluating a company and determining what they can "afford" to pay me or not pay me. I'm an ALPA volunteer, and volunteer my time for the benefit of my peers. That's the rock I crawled under from.

How about you? Who do you work for? What have you done for the profession? If someone doesn't hold the same opinion as you, do you always try to insult them, or just in this instance?

There have been high and low paid UNION pilots all over the country for some time now.

True. And at least as Union pilots, pilots have a voice. And I guarantee if the Skybus guys were ALPA or Teamsteer or Skybus Pilot association members, they wouldn't stand for 65K/year wages. And if they vote for that as a union, that's there right and I say welcome to my union jumpseat. But if their management wants to use low, non-union wages to slice the throat of me or my peers who are just trying to hand on to what they have, I'll direct them to your jumpseat. The Skybus management guys thank you in advance for help.

SWA pilots were some of the lowest paid pilots in the industry for years, especially when it came to their major airline counterparts. And they are UNION......

And they'd be welcome on my union jumpseat whether they make more than me or less than me.


You see, union doesn't guarantee anything. ALPA itself has high paid and low paid pilots flying the same equipment. Go look at airline pilot central and look at some of the union rates out there.

I agree. See above.

Again, you need to wake up and smell what you shovel. The only robber baron management I know of is at these bankrupt mainline carriers who steal from their employees and line their pockets with the difference. (insert UAL, DAL, AAA, and NWA.) Then they conveniently blame JB, AAI, and any other LCC out there for their problems. And you buy into it.

Actually, I don't buy into anything anyone tells me. I look at both sides of an argument and make an informed opinion. If you really think that LCC wages/workrules had NOTHING to do with the downward spiral of legacy pilot wages/workrules/retirement, then I can understand why you're not concerned about Skybus or Allegiant or Virgin. It must have been just a big coincidence that all of our contracts look amazingly similar to JetBlue, Airtran's, and Frontier's.


BTW...I am sure it is in your ALPA contract that if you have to get to the most obscure point on the map for a family emergency that your airline will pay for you to get there.

It's nowhere in the contract. But I know first hand that as adversarial our management/pilot relationship is, they'll get me home positive space.

A350, I've responded to your questions. Will you now answer mine, please?

1) Who do you work for?
2) Are you concerned about wage levels at airlines like Skybus, Virgin, and Allegiant?

I''ll look forward to your answers.

 

[A350]

1. JetBlue....after 14+ years of USAir.
2. No....

If you take my post as an insult....you need to thicken up that hide.

Your arguement about being union and holding up some standard doesn't hold water. If Skybus offered union membership right out of the box with the "contract" that they have now and voted for it, you claim you wouldn't mind them on your jumpseat. I cry BS on that one. You'd still be PO'ed that they are undercutting you. Many union members have contracts that aren't much to talk about.....they don't deny you jumpseats because you make more and can afford a ticket, do they? Are you telling me that you wouldn't take a ride home from an Allegiant, Virgin, JetBlue, or Skybus crew?

All in the name of a union....not your union, just any union? How many Indy Air pilots attended the non-union JetBlue job fair after they shut down and now call JetBlue home? How many Indy Air pilots work at Virgin America? Getting a non-union pilot to want to be a union pilot will only work if you show them the benefits of being a union pilot. Denying them a ride to work or refusing to sign reciprocal agreements with them will only make them think twice about unions.

Years back the Midway MEC Chairman, who retired as a UAL pilot, advocating the practice of welcoming non-union pilots on their jumpseats....to show professionalism, courtesy, and the ins and outs of union membership. What would he think of your so called plan to take it back?

A350

 

[ualdriver]

It's not that I take it as insult. I just find making comments like you did as the refuge for people who can't make and defend a point. Usually, if I want to have an intelligent debate, I try to refrain from making any statements that may be deemed derogatory by my sparring partner. That's just me although somewhere there are examples of slip-ups on my part I'm sure.

If Skybus was a Union carrier, and after organizing they only agreed to 65K for an A319 Captain position (very highly unlikely), I would be PO'd. Big time. But that's how democracy works. I don't get my way all the time, I won't like their decision, but at least they had input into their fate and I'd be comfortable about letting them on my jumpseat.

Besides, it's too hard to determine who has a "better" contract and using that determination as to whether or not one guy rides. For example, you hear guys complaining about Continental 1st year pay and lack of benefits for the first 6 months and therefore they're a "bottom feeder." Some could look at my contract and find one aspect of it and call me a "bottom feeder." That's why I'd probaby use the union designation as a discriminator rather than an arbitrary judgement of my contract versus someone elses'.

I'd settle for any nationally recognized, AFL-CIO union. I don't necessarily think my Union (ALPA) is for everyone. I think some airlines, such as yours, would be better off with an in-house Union as there are many airline refugees there who blame ALPA for what has happened in the industry, mostly unfairly because they lack a firm understanding of airline business fundamentals and how it affected the legacies in the early 2000's. So ALPA probably wouldn't "fit" into your culture. But an in-house Union might. I'm not holding my breath.

Sorry you lost your job at US Air and were forced to start your career again. I fear that may be me, too, within a decade if airlines like Skybus and Virgin gain critical mass. Unlike you I guess, I am very concerned about both Skybus and Virgin pay rates.

 

[A350]

UAL:

Thanks for the kind words....

You will forgive the veracity of my posts....but I take jumpseating very, VERY seriously. (And I commute online) When it gets mentioned like it has on this thread, I get very PO'ed, very fast. When an pilot presents themselves for a ride on my airplane, I am completely color blind as to who they work for. They are trying to make a living just like I am and it isn't so easy as it used to be. It is the one sacred ground IMO that we all or at least most of us share. I thoroughly enjoy sharing a cockpit with another airline pilot because when you listen to the stories and experiences of another, you gain perspective that you wouldn't ordinarily have. That isn't a bad thing.

IMO, the union of preference (ALPA) had better get its house in order....My fear for the rest of us is not so much VA or Skybus, but the threat of mergers, acquisitions, and the seniority integration or lack thereof. Nothing will kill your career quicker. There will always be LCC's out there and there will always be someone trying to build a better mousetrap.

A350