Virgin America Approved

[A350]

When are you guys going to get off the mathematical equation that UNION=HIGH WAGES?

The two do not go hand in hand......so what if JB unionizes. Will we make any more money? Maybe, maybe not.

For starters, my loyalty goes to the company I work for. The profession is second. Why? Because the company is my profession. If I hold the profession in higher regard than the company and the company fails, I start over at the bottom somewhere else and literally start over. The profession would benefit, but not me. You who want to start a jumpseat war over wages/unions are fighting the wrong people. Your career hinges on a healthy company and profession.....they can go hand in hand.

I didn't see any of the legacy guys willing to shutter the doors on their companies during the BK process.....I would be more than willing to bet it was because no one wants to start over...better to live and fight later when the time is right.

A350

 

[ualdriver]

When are you guys going to get off the mathematical equation that UNION=HIGH WAGES?

I probably won't get off it because generally, it does. And better work rules, too. For example, do you think that if JetBlue unionized say, 3 years ago, that the pilot group would have agreed to $80/hr rate for a jet that is basically a 737? Do you think that the JetBlue pilots would have negotiated at least inflationary adjustments to their contract over the past several years? If you don't believe me, ask your new CEO if a union = higher wages. Also, you can read the "risk" section of JetBlue's stock prospectus and it is implied there as well.


The two do not go hand in hand......so what if JB unionizes. Will we make any more money? Maybe, maybe not.

You're right. That's the choice of your pilot group. Maybe there are more important issues than money for you guys. I bet yor E190 rates, at a minimum, would come up though.


I didn't see any of the legacy guys willing to shutter the doors on their companies during the BK process.....I would be more than willing to bet it was because no one wants to start over...better to live and fight later when the time is right.

Of course there are always guys who live paycheck to paycheck and would never vote to shutter the doors. Or maybe even strike if it ever came to that.

The problem with the legacies should have "shuttered the door" argument is that it wouldn't have "fixed the problem" and would have accomplished nothing in the long term. For example, US Air was the first to go into bankruptcy. If the employees there had said, "we're not taking one dollar in concessions of any sort" the company would have been liquidated. The balance of the carriers would have grown into that void, but the end result would still be we'd have a $120/hr. JetBlue Captain with no retirement bleeding the next legacy to death with their $220/hr+pension+cushy work rules. So the guy that "takes a stand" and shutters his own company has to go work for a JetBlue, an Airtran, or a Frontier for the same wages that he could have just had in place had they simply agreed to lower the pay to the new low bar set by the LCC's and get back to competing at their own company.

That's partly why you didn't see any legacies "taking one for the team." It wasn't necessary, and it would have accomplished nothing. We all just came to the realization that the marketplace has changed, the market has no place for a $220/hr+pension+good work rule narrowbody airline pilot anymore, and if we want to compete with the new "LCC" reality, you have to take the hit as employees and compete or go out of business.

 

[A350]

We will just always disagree......there is nothing to be gained from a jumpseat war. You can choose to not negotiate with the new LCC's a reciprocal jumpseat agreement.....and in the end another nail will be installed in the coffin of this profession. Union or non-union....high or low pay, it is the most disgusting display of arrogance I can think of. It sure must be nice to sit in the left seat and pontificate to some poor bastard who got his a$$ handed to him in a BK or liquidation and had to start over. Of course, you and the others would rather he went to ALDI to be a cashier rather than do what they love.

Have fun with it. BTW....Since you wont be allowing any VA or Skybus guys on your flights, I hope you will keep the hypocrisy to a minimum and stay off theirs.

A350

 

[Old School 737]

This industry screwed up long ago. Pilots should have made it a closed community like a Doctor. You have to be board certified and all that crap. No outsiders. Airlines wan't a pilot, you come to the association/board and get one. Wages would be higher and there would not be a pilot surplus because the current pilots would not allow it. Also pay would be basically the same for like equipment. Much higher and steady, less up and down. Would have helped if the industry was never deregulated as well.

 

[bigboy]

Companies like Skybus and Virgin America will make life 10 years down the road difficult for all pilots.

People were saying the same about Southwest in the 80's and 90's, and FEDEX in the 70's and 80's.


Look at them now!!