Venezuelan Russian-made Flankers

[stonewall]

As Robin Olds told me over a beer a couple years, if the F-22 uses its guns in air combat it has failed in its mission. 10 F-5s against one F-22 the F-22 is in serious trouble, and can use its superiority to disengage and cede air superiority to the F-5's. Lets see you could buy about 50 F-5 for the cost of 1 F-22?

But simply add one F-22 and you can crush all 10 F-5s in short order. Silly argument.

Besides, when I've killed 6 of the F-5s (all the flight leads, of course), I'll watch at least one crash on his own as he's stupefied with fear, one get smart and run home, and two orbit in circles 8 miles apart wondering WTF is going on as I roll in and gun the poor bastards.:smash:

 

[stonewall]

Fair?

No. 'Fair' was your average grade in UPT. Get your panties out of a wad and egress this conversation, herbivore.












I keed, I keed

 

[BiffF15]

Well, since you and Magnum have never seen the inside of a 16 man MC-130 (noone has, they don't exist) I'd say that neither one of you know what you're talking about. You concurring with Mag's opinon is like me concurring that Einstein's theory of relativity is correct. I can't really do that because I have no clue what that's about. Magnum has also never seen the inside of a two person cockpit, except during training or with an engineer in the pit. I can say, without a doubt, it is possible for more than one person in the cockpit to have 100% SA on the situation at hand. What noone can have 100% SA on is what the PIC is thinking. Except of course, the PIC. What I recommend you guys do is stick to talking about the things you are familiar with and let people who fly multi-crew aircraft decide how many people can have SA at any given time. Fair?

Deuce,
I have flown crew aircraft for 11 years (DC-10, 757 / 767, A320 / A319), and single seat since graduating from UPT in 89. I have flown in the back of AWACs on OSW missions for 12+ hours at a time. I have sat at the console during Red Flag doing kill removal (very similar to what AWACs does). I think I can speak with some familiarity to both single and multi person crews (both airborne and ground based).
As an Eagle guy I have worked with AWACS and various GCI units around the world and guess what, I have never seen them have as a group or individually have superior SA to a single seat guy. Everyone contributes however the mission commander (the guy who owns the package of fighters for a particular strike) all alone in his fighter regardless of the number of seats it contains. The above is what gives me credence in answering your and Magnums previous post with a simply "Concur".
How much fighter time do you have and in what type? I would guess little to none. How do you propose to speak with authority (or hypothesize) on such things with anything approaching credibility?
Guess how much a pilot in the back seat is allowed to talk during a tactical sortie (in the Eagle)? Damn near none and usually in the short hairs only (if he picks up a visual during the transition from beyond visual range (BVR) to with in visual range (WVR). How many two seat fighters is the USAF procuring currently other than for attrition? Why do you think that is?
There was a time in which multi-seat multi-role fighters had a place (weapons integration and mission specific requirements dictated this). However two, single pilot F22s have more SA than a 12 ship of Eagles.
If you want to theorize make sure you announce that clearly. If you want to speak with authority to what you have no experience in then expect to be scoffed. More so if you continue along the latter path (LOSA).
Biff

 

[bagasticks]

"How many two seat fighters is the USAF procuring currently other than for attrition? Why do you think that is?"

They sure are procuring alot of NO-seaters though. . .. hmmmmmm


Thankfully they're not recruiting UPT flunking herbivores to the predator community. . Lord knows if i cant fly an ILS, i damn sure cant shoot a hellfire without killing 6 school kids and a spotted owl. .

 

[Deuce130]

Deuce,
I have flown crew aircraft for 11 years (DC-10, 757 / 767, A320 / A319), and single seat since graduating from UPT in 89. I have flown in the back of AWACs on OSW missions for 12+ hours at a time. I have sat at the console during Red Flag doing kill removal (very similar to what AWACs does). I think I can speak with some familiarity to both single and multi person crews (both airborne and ground based).
As an Eagle guy I have worked with AWACS and various GCI units around the world and guess what, I have never seen them have as a group or individually have superior SA to a single seat guy. Everyone contributes however the mission commander (the guy who owns the package of fighters for a particular strike) all alone in his fighter regardless of the number of seats it contains. The above is what gives me credence in answering your and Magnums previous post with a simply "Concur".
How much fighter time do you have and in what type? I would guess little to none. How do you propose to speak with authority (or hypothesize) on such things with anything approaching credibility?
Guess how much a pilot in the back seat is allowed to talk during a tactical sortie (in the Eagle)? Damn near none and usually in the short hairs only (if he picks up a visual during the transition from beyond visual range (BVR) to with in visual range (WVR). How many two seat fighters is the USAF procuring currently other than for attrition? Why do you think that is?
There was a time in which multi-seat multi-role fighters had a place (weapons integration and mission specific requirements dictated this). However two, single pilot F22s have more SA than a 12 ship of Eagles.
If you want to theorize make sure you announce that clearly. If you want to speak with authority to what you have no experience in then expect to be scoffed. More so if you continue along the latter path (LOSA).
Biff

Biff, I do not accept your argument that it's impossible for anyone in a multi-place/crew aircraft to have as much SA as a single seat fighter guy. I've flown crew aircraft my entire career and can say, with authority, that it is entirely possible for the crew to have as much SA as they need, up to and including 100% SA. You guys imply that if I have 100% SA on what's going on, then my copilot or nav have zero. If they have 80%, then I have 20%. That's BS. If you guys want to stop talking in circles and simply come out and say that the pilots of F-15Es, F-18Ds, and EA-6Bs, along with heavy crew aircraft suck compared to pilots of F-15C's, F-22's, and F-16s, then simply say so. In addition, your experience in airliner type aircraft hardly qualify you to pass judgement on what goes on inside of a military crew aircraft with a tactical mission. They're apples and oranges. So, scoff all you want. I fully realize that I will not convince you, Magnum, or any other single seat fighter pilot that anyone other than yourselves is capable of doing aything much more than changing lightbulbs, much less flying airplanes.

 

[Deuce130]

No. 'Fair' was your average grade in UPT. Get your panties out of a wad and egress this conversation, herbivore.

I keed, I keed

I think it was yours, too. Good thing you were at the home of the welfare fighter, ENJJPT. Otherwise you'd more than likely be flying B-52's out of Minot. Not that there's anything wrong with that....

 

[stonewall]

I think it was yours, too. Good thing you were at the home of the welfare fighter, ENJJPT.

Good one.


Look, everyone, this started out as a joke on two seat Hornet pilots and StrikeEagle bros. It's a joke. Sometimes having a WSO adds to the fight, sometimes it detracts.

There are alot of AFSOC crew planes that have demanding missions that require a high level of SA in a combat environment. I don't deny this. I've also seen young OCA leads out there with all thrust and no vector. Saw one dude get up a Flag debrief and say in front of 200 people "at this point, I had more SA than I thought I did," completely oblivious to the fact this statement meant he had none.

Anyway, everything we all do requires a high level of SA...much more so than a 0300 leg to Milwaukee. Everyone just simma.

 

[JungleJett]

My dad can beat up your dad....

And people wonder why!

 

[414Flyer]

Video comparing F/A-18 Block II Super Bugs to MiG-35 Fulcrum-F, and SU-37 Flanker-F

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0

 

[SIG600]

Video comparing F/A-18 Block II Super Bugs to MiG-35 Fulcrum-F, and SU-37 Flanker-F

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0

Shack