Usapa Vote

[Wiskey Driver]

Really....such desparation.

Has anyone ever seen so much mail spewing from ALPA? Man, they weren't so "concerned" when they gave away the pension without a vote. They weren't so "concerned" when the Nic first came out. But now, boy, they're really concerned. And fearful, too. What a bunch of pussies. Not my kind of union, for sure.

They're so concerned, they drag up six month old e-mails to discredit the competition. (USAPA really does have better insurance lined up.) How grade school is that?

Funnier is how anyone thinks ALPA has any credibility left. All this crap they're saying, mailing, recording....in fact, all the crap the windfall-hopefulls are posting here....Everyone sees right through it.

Post away, boys. All your dire predictions are easy to see through. Hint: ALPA has been lying to the East for so many years, the pilots finally "get it." No information emanating from ALPA or its supporters, or its suddenly "concerned" pilots, or the National mother(f) ship has ANY validity any more. It's all bull$hit, and a huge number of West pilots would feel this way right now, too, if their vision wasn't clouded by the Nic and the salivation over aircraft and routes and seats they NEVER expected to fly just a few years ago.

You guys are just as big a bunch of a$$hole cry babies as the next group, you just aren't on the painful end of this one.

And while some guys I know are spiteful and would like to see you there, it will probably never happen. I know that USAPA isn't going to try to screw anyone. You might not get quite the windfall that Nic represents, but.....awe, gee

Oh, I know......here come the posts discrediting me and everything that isn't ALPA/West/ACPC, etc. So g'damn predictable, all you Westies here on FI.com.

May as well post another old or fake e-mail, or some fake USAPA posting to soothe yourselves.

18 days.

Here we go with yet another dumb a$s statement about a windfall the doesn't exist. Where is my upgrade, where is my A330 bid?? If there is a windfall I sure want my piece of the pie and now!!! Oh wait I am at the same spont on the list that I was the day before the list came out minus a couple of digits. Ahh hell I thought I hit some lottery when all I got was what I had. I got excited for nothing...

WD.

 

[hyperboy]

Thank you

Dear US Airways Pilots,

My name is Roger Hall. I have been with Continental Airlines for 18 years. I am writing this to shed some truth about the recent letter you received from Jay Peirce, the MEC Chairman at Continental Airlines. I am also writing this to urge to vote for USAPA.

Let me start by saying that in 2001, I wanted nothing more than to have ALPA on the property here at Continental. Growing up and watching my father serve as an ALPA LEC Rep and Council Chairman had made me believe that ALPA was the way to go. I always knew that my father was fighting for either the career preservation or improvement of his fellow pilots. When we here at CAL were faced with the vote I thought it was a simple choice. I talked my father and was shocked when he told me it was best to stay Independent and that it will be the better choice for the long haul. He told me of the pitfalls and of how little power the pilots really have under ALPA. He warned that once some of the so called volunteers were in, they became lifers motivated by self interest and said I need look no farther than the one MEC vice-chairmen of the eighties, he is still wearing a suit and tie and he is the VP of Finance today. You will pay for the all the trapping, pomp and circumstance of a national union with no sense of the profession and receive less efficient bargaining and be tied to policies that try to serve to many masters and likely not serve your own pilot group well. Well I didn’t listen I voted ALPA and regret it now more that ever.

It didn’t take long to realize that it was a mistake. Contract ’02 negotiations were delayed from the start following the 9/11 Attacks. Airline management used this against all Airlines. We saw A Plans go, some without union ratification, pay cuts, work rule changes, and the list goes on. Well instead of ALPA National standing up and rallying all the Airline pilots to fight the fight, ALPA sat back and watched each airline go their own way. Meanwhile APA, the union that represents American Pilots didn’t back down that easy. Despite the fact that they were near bankruptcy the fought back against Management theft and preserved their A Plan, maintained the best B Plan in the industry and had snap back provisions.

Here at CAL under the first and only ALPA contract I have experienced, things are not better, they are worse. Keep in mind that we were not threatened by Bankruptcy or in Bankruptcy like American or US Airways. We had a CEO that told us we are better than everyone else, our cost are lower, and that we are prepared to fly into the future with our young fleet. Yet the independent union at APA far out negotiated our ALPA contingent and the engineered the replacement of their CEO to boot.

Here are just a few things that were given up;

-Replacing line construction with a preferential bidding system that is a mess. PBS doesn’t fully honor seniority and if you are not a program specialist every month is a crap shoot. Pilots are putting off upgrade and transitions because the schedules are so bad. We have pilots in the 60% holding B757/B767 Captain and 2 year pilots as B737 Captains because no body wants them. Well more than a thousand pilots bypassed upgrade to Captain.

-The way our Vacations and training are credited make for an awful bid month. I hold a better schedule without vacation than I do with a vacation week.

-Our Frozen A plan is just that frozen not protected.

-We have no Snap Back. ALPA negotiations will start below where ALPA experts left us 6 years ago.

-There is no Schedule Improvement again because of PBS.

-As Part of Contract ’02, we had a side letter that protected us in case the other Union Groups didn’t ratify their contracts. We didn’t have to honor our contract until such a time that all employees took pay cuts. Well that side letter didn’t last ONE DAY. Our then MEC Chairman, Captain Jay Panarello, gave CAL Management the green light for the concessions, WITHOUT Membership Approval. Is this really what you want in a Union.

Ladies and Gentlemen we are not better off with ALPA. There is no National Unity, there is no National Expertise, there is No 61,000 Strong, there is No Merger Protection, No Seniority Protection, No Insurance or Medical protection. All of the above can be attained or protected just as easy with an Independent Union. I am working under the worse conditions of my career. Other than hourly rate I had a better Quality of life under the Old Frank Lorenzo Pilot Employment Policy when hired in 1990 than I do under an ALPA Contract.

Remember You are the Union, You are what makes it strong and you have the chance to Own your Union and not come second the interest of others or the Union itself. Just ask yourself, are the pilots at Southwest, UPS, American, AirTran worse off than us ALPA Carriers, or has their Independent Unions served them well?

In closing I am embarrassed of our Union President, in 15 moths at the helm he has signed a Comair concessionary contract, and done more to divide pilots than anyone before him. While we all continue to live in an uncertain environment with Losses in Pay and Quality of Life, our fearless leaders continue to live like fat cats. I ask, “John Prater, How is that taking it back?”

I fully support the USAPA efforts and will continue to see all pilots as my brothers and sisters no matter what the paint scheme on the airframe is. I urge each and everyone of you to vote for USAPA.

Fraternally,

Roger Hall II
EWR B737 Captain

​

I am sure REZ will have an excuse for this as well... Why don't you wake up and MARRY ALPA!

 

[hyperboy]

suck ALPA

Turtle - the chance of almost 90% of your pilot group voting FOR usapa is about as likely as you getting DOH ever. Not going to happen. Sorry buddy.

The vote total will definitely be above the threshold - I have no question about that.

My guess is it will be about 4500 total votes and very close to 2000/2000 split are already decided and/or have voted. It's the remaining 500 that will decide it all. Your 3186/1502 guess is typical of you USAPA koolaid drinkers. You have absolutely no clue what your doing and are so detached from reality and reason that it would be hillarious if it wasn't so depressingly true.

I suspect with no plan B and a questionable plan A at very best, the swing votes will favor ALPA or abstain all together.

Let's see, no insurance contracts, no credit line from the bank, your aeromedical guy refuses to work with Harvey Watt, you desire to fight a losing legal battle for DOH. Looks like the only one who's going to win will be Seham - maybe you should just send him your money directly.

How will USAPA handle pilot grievances, sec 19 and other disciplanary issues, benefits, R&I, negotiating a new contract (hint, a 1 man team with a fractured pilot group will never work), FAA interface, TSA interface, pro standards questions, and the myriad of other daily union issues that are fires that never go out? How are they going to handle all that and magically get you DOH with their cut and paste job of APA's bylaws and constitution?

If you vote for USAPA you must realize that DOH is a flawed assumption and ONCE AGAIN you will be denied your requests...from the company (who has already accepted the list and publically stated they will not accept anything but a relative list), West litigation and any legal venue. Millions will be spent and literally years will pass without any raise or contract improvement only to hear NO one more time.

Your fellow East pilots are not stupid lemmings like yourself and my bet is they will see the cliff and stop before blindly jumping like you have.

Nothin could be any worse than the way ALPA handles Grievances.............

 

[Fly-n-hi]

Here we go with yet another dumb a$s statement about a windfall the doesn't exist. Where is my upgrade, where is my A330 bid?? If there is a windfall I sure want my piece of the pie and now!!! Oh wait I am at the same spont on the list that I was the day before the list came out minus a couple of digits. Ahh hell I thought I hit some lottery when all I got was what I had. I got excited for nothing...

WD.

No kidding. My relative seniority did not go up at all and the guy that I'm flying with now...he actually lost relative seniority. The only guys who gained anything were the East captains.

The problem is that these AAA guys equate seniority with longevity. If your most junior pilot has been there for 18 years he has no seniority. He has 18 years of longevity but zero seniority. He is not relatively senior to an AWA pilot who's been there for 8 years.

If you are at the top of one list you should be at the top of the new list. Also, if you're at the bottom of one list you should be at the bottom of the new list. How these guys say that this is possibly unfair?

I know, I know. They are gonna say that they had a bunch of retirements coming up which would translate into movement and upgrades. Then we'll say that they were going to be out of business (which is true).

So, since our crystall balls don't match up what do we do? We look at the list on the day of the AWA aquistion of AAA and integrate relatively. All the captains are still captains. All the FOs are still FOs. How is this not right?

Are the AWA FOs gonna benifit from the AAA retirements? I don't know. But I do know that the US Airways guys were 2 weeks from liquidation and I'm geting tired of their whining and bitching.

 

[Fly-n-hi]

All I hear from the USAPA guys is how bad ALPA is. Ok. BTW, I'm not a big ALPA fan.

Tell me what USAPA's plan is. Without mentioning seniority tell me how is USAPA going to represent its pilots better. Someone convince me why USAPA is the better choice. Try to keep it cordial, please.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

I am sure REZ will have an excuse for this as well... Why don't you wake up and MARRY ALPA!

Thought you may like this CAL letter as well

March 2008

Dear US Airways Pilot,
I am encouraging you to carefully consider your decision as you vote on union representation. As a Continental pilot, I can tell you from experience that the siren song of an independent union can be strong. The allure of lofty promises can be addicting. But I urge you to learn from the lessons of your union brothers and sisters at Continental Airlines. There is a reason that Continental pilots are represented by ALPA.
We learned that standing together as ALPA, a union of 61,000, gives us more strength than 5,000 pilots going it alone. This is true for our own contract efforts, where we gain, and use to our advantage, the knowledge and experience from over 40 pilot groups. We learn from and take advantage of pattern bargaining and have access to expertise that makes our contract negotiations significantly more effective and allows us to gain more for our pilots. Not only is being part of ALPA beneficial to collective bargaining, but ALPA is especially important for national and global issues that affect all pilots. Safety issues, regulatory issues and international issues like Open Skies are all areas where, as part of ALPA, we can provide our input and make an impact. We had little if any chance as an independent union to affect these issues. Being part of ALPA ensures that our views are heard and included.
We learned that ALPA resources and expertise are far greater than those we could assemble on our own. ALPA staff, national pilot committees and task forces support our pilot volunteers, and together as a team, we are significantly better equipped to handle any issue we face. There is quite simply more that we can achieve with ALPA. Our futures are better with ALPA. Our careers are better with ALPA. Our profession is better with ALPA.
The decision you face in the representation election will affect your career now and for years to come. First, I encourage you to vote. Do not leave this important decision in the hands of others. More importantly, I encourage you to VOTE ALPA. Learn from the lessons we learned at Continental Airlines. There is a reason that Continental pilots are represented by ALPA. ALPA is the better choice to safeguard and advance your futures and your families’ futures. In Unity,

Capt. Jay Pierce
CAL MEC Chairman

 

[Wiskey Driver]

No kidding. My relative seniority did not go up at all and the guy that I'm flying with now...he actually lost relative seniority. The only guys who gained anything were the East captains.

The problem is that these AAA guys equate seniority with longevity. If your most junior pilot has been there for 18 years he has no seniority. He has 18 years of longevity but zero seniority. He is not relatively senior to an AWA pilot who's been there for 8 years.

If you are at the top of one list you should be at the top of the new list. Also, if you're at the bottom of one list you should be at the bottom of the new list. How these guys say that this is possibly unfair?

I know, I know. They are gonna say that they had a bunch of retirements coming up which would translate into movement and upgrades. Then we'll say that they were going to be out of business (which is true).

So, since our crystall balls don't match up what do we do? We look at the list on the day of the AWA aquistion of AAA and integrate relatively. All the captains are still captains. All the FOs are still FOs. How is this not right?

Are the AWA FOs gonna benifit from the AAA retirements? I don't know. But I do know that the US Airways guys were 2 weeks from liquidation and I'm geting tired of their whining and bitching.

A bunch of retirements coming up???????? No one but no one is close to retirement!!! People don't hit retirement for at least 5 big years!!!!

WD.

 

[Turtle21]

All I hear from the USAPA guys is how bad ALPA is. Ok. BTW, I'm not a big ALPA fan.

Tell me what USAPA's plan is. Without mentioning seniority tell me how is USAPA going to represent its pilots better. Someone convince me why USAPA is the better choice. Try to keep it cordial, please.

Ya mean besides having pilot votes?

 

[PHXFLYR]

Lighten up Francis. Learn to read. Show me where I said any of the above comments. Don't be puttin words in my mouth. I'll let you know loud and clear what I have to say.

I've seen posts where people claiming to be East pilots say that they would rather see US Airways fail than accept the Nic award. I have read things like this on these very boards.

I never said that ALPA was good. At least ALPA will piss-off the airline evenly. USAPA only exists to favor the East side and screw the West.

What do you really think is going to happen if USAPA wins? At the Phoenix roadshow they basically said they would concede to a less that parity contract if it will win over management. They basically said they don't have a plan B if they can't change the Nic award (and they wont be able to). If they win it will be an endless legal battle. Right after USAPA wins some legacy carrier is going to buy us and staple all of us to the bottom of their list. Nothing will get done. This senario is a management's wet dream.

US Airways pilots, East and West, are gonna get slaughtered. We will get wipsawed against each other just like the regionals.

The part that I don't understand is this: when our MECs agreed to go into binding arbitration we all realized that there was a chance that we might not like the outcome. So why did you agree to binding arbitration? I think that the East guys really thought this Nicolaou was going to hand to you our asses on a silver platter, and when that didn't happen you went postal.

Right now the East guys are the majority. But remember, in 10 years when the east guys start retiring, we'll eventually be the majority. And we wont forget what you did to us.

Very accurate summation.

 

[dooork]

Why did you support such a contract and send it over to ALPA Nat'l for concurrence? Why didn't you send a CBA to ALPA Nat'l that the rest of us would have supported...??

What if ALPA Nat'l disapproved your CBA? Then what? What does the Admin manual have to do with this?




Maybe.....

Riddle me this.... why do you think ALPA should be more powerful? Or why is the IAM more powerful?

What we are really talking about is your expectations.

But let's posit for a minute that this is not an expectation problem on your part and that ALPA IS powerful and influential....

Can you quantify this power/influence? And why has ALPA not used it?

They did not sign the CC Air pilots contract.. You probably don't know anything about that....like most B.S. posters on this board.