Usapa lost!

[waveflyer]

Not a terrible idea taco

 

[cactusboy53]

This is a step in the right direction.

Why did it take you guys years to join (and thus vote)?

In retrospect, was that a tactical failure?

We have. PHX has about 1100 votes, thereby giving us the maximum # of USAPA representatives (3). We have had 3 representatives for 2-3 years now. Eric Ferguson was one of the first people to join USAPA and recommended that all AWA pilot's do the same.

The problems are that the remaining BPR members could at any time out-vote the PHX based representatives on any resolution. Further, the USAPA BPR "faithful" have followed el Presidente Cleary and allowed him to do EVERYTHING that he has set out to do. The result? Over $10,000,000 in failed litigation expenses, a current Pension investigation that has cost the east pilot group that will likely recover nothing, a LOA93 Grievance that took over 2 years with no pay out, and a union that is quite nearly in the RED.

We can move forward IF:

1. All of us become members in good standing of USAPA
2. The right combination of leaders are elected in the next election
3. The new leaders change the CBL's to reflect an unaltered Nicolau as the starting point for CBL's.
4. The new leadership rearranges the key committees (NAC, Grievance, Merger, Communications, etc.) with equal number of EXPERIENCED volunteers.
5. We return to the company and seek to start from the previously abandoned contract from 2007 (27 sections CLOSED).

Well, that's the "short list".


CB

 

[cactusboy53]

Well, most of these conditions are unrealistic. You must know that.

But if you want to appeal to wallets (not necessarily hearts) why don't you compensate them with a 20-25 year F/O pay scale that approaches captain's pay? Then it really wouldn't matter who is in what seat. It's an unorthodox idea but in the end money talks.

1. Are Logical (You're saying it's unrealistic to find a logical East pilot?)
2. Are Less emotional (Same as above)
3. Are Realistic (Also Same as above)
4. Are Sick & tired of the USAPA BS that spews forth (did you read the Spike's latest PHL update?? What a load of garbage!). (Still same as above)
5. Understand that the Nicolau Seniority list is the only legal seniority list, and that USAPA & SSM&P sold them a bag of rotten goods. (I'm sorry, but the fact remains that the Nicolau is the only legal list that exists. Any other list will create a DFR or a hybrid DFR. Period).
6. Want a new contract now, and are willing to work together to that end. (You're saying it's unrealistic to find an East pilot that is not willing to work together for a joint contract?)

Regarding the '20-25 year FO's", your suggestion to pay these guys is great. This is something that we can address with a new and improved NAC. Presently the NAC is negotiating a contract that is WORSE than the current AWA contract (giving away the STD for instance). How exactly is that better????

 

[B-atch]

We have. PHX has about 1100 votes, thereby giving us the maximum # of USAPA representatives (3). We have had 3 representatives for 2-3 years now. Eric Ferguson was one of the first people to join USAPA and recommended that all AWA pilot's do the same.

The problems are that the remaining BPR members could at any time out-vote the PHX based representatives on any resolution. Further, the USAPA BPR "faithful" have followed el Presidente Cleary and allowed him to do EVERYTHING that he has set out to do. The result? Over $10,000,000 in failed litigation expenses, a current Pension investigation that has cost the east pilot group that will likely recover nothing, a LOA93 Grievance that took over 2 years with no pay out, and a union that is quite nearly in the RED.

We can move forward IF:

1. All of us become members in good standing of USAPA
2. The right combination of leaders are elected in the next election
3. The new leaders change the CBL's to reflect an unaltered Nicolau as the starting point for CBL's.
4. The new leadership rearranges the key committees (NAC, Grievance, Merger, Communications, etc.) with equal number of EXPERIENCED volunteers.
5. We return to the company and seek to start from the previously abandoned contract from 2007 (27 sections CLOSED).

Well, that's the "short list".


CB

Ahhh...You forgot the UN-marked bills, and the getaway car demand!! Dream on cactus. As in ALL democracies, the majority RULES.. You have 1100, we have 3400. Good luck convincing the east. By the time your PROPAGANDA machine runs its course, this place will be merged!!
West or NO-West!!

 

[cactusboy53]

Ahhh...You forgot the UN-marked bills, and the getaway car demand!! Dream on cactus. As in ALL democracies, the majority RULES.. You have 1100, we have 3400. Good luck convincing the east. By the time your PROPAGANDA machine runs its course, this place will be merged!!
West or NO-West!!

One vote is all you've got B. Just like me. See you in the voting booth. I'll be the guy with a big smile on my face and a hearty hand shake.

 

[Taco Rocket]

1. Are Logical (You're saying it's unrealistic to find a logical East pilot?)
2. Are Less emotional (Same as above)
3. Are Realistic (Also Same as above)
4. Are Sick & tired of the USAPA BS that spews forth (did you read the Spike's latest PHL update?? What a load of garbage!). (Still same as above)
5. Understand that the Nicolau Seniority list is the only legal seniority list, and that USAPA & SSM&P sold them a bag of rotten goods. (I'm sorry, but the fact remains that the Nicolau is the only legal list that exists. Any other list will create a DFR or a hybrid DFR. Period).
6. Want a new contract now, and are willing to work together to that end. (You're saying it's unrealistic to find an East pilot that is not willing to work together for a joint contract?)

Regarding the '20-25 year FO's", your suggestion to pay these guys is great. This is something that we can address with a new and improved NAC. Presently the NAC is negotiating a contract that is WORSE than the current AWA contract (giving away the STD for instance). How exactly is that better????

We can probably agree the last 5 years have been nothing short of a soap opera. Despite many emotional and sometimes irrational events (mailing poop, phone jamming USAPA, not joining USAPA and then being surprised when one can't attend a meeting or vote, getting riled up at a simple call sign change, taking pleasure in others' misfortunes [lurkers I will not use that German word], there are still rational people with whom you can deal. Obviously you agree because you are not wasting your time talking to me: you know the lurkers will decide, and you're right.

I like some of your ideas, and think you are on the right track by moving this debate to the ballot box. The court system will never provide a resolution totally acceptable to all (an analogy might be divorce proceeding or property settlement). Like it or not, it's going to take dialogue and a negotiation.

Something to think about: it's asking a lot -- perhaps all -- for these guys to give up the Nic. What, if anything, to you propose to fill that gap? Negotiations involve solving problems with many moving pieces. You're not going to be able to cement the Nic without moving these other pieces around. And simply reminding lurkers that the Nic was "already agreed to" is not a workable answer, because such an answer sidesteps the inevitable emotional response.

I commented earlier that most of the benefits from a future contract will have to go to the east, to bring the east up to where the west already is. What's left then in the money pot to make the east guys happy? Giving up Nic and simply becoming "average" won't fly. And if you give the east more, will you face a mutiny from your Army of Leonidas?

 

[waveflyer]

This is the tone of a conversation that can actually accomplish something-

 

[Bringupthebird]

Like it or not, it's going to take dialogue and a negotiation.


And if you give the east more, will you face a mutiny from your Army of Leonidas?

Negotiations involve give-and-take. Capitulation doesn't. The east would have to give up far more than just their destructive behavior to approach "negotiations". Plus, the history of USAPA and the east is that they will not commit to "binding" anything, so how do you propose someone negotiate without the obligation to carry out the end product?

What else would the east give up to make the west whole?

 

[cactusboy53]

We can probably agree the last 5 years have been nothing short of a soap opera. Despite many emotional and sometimes irrational events (mailing poop, phone jamming USAPA, not joining USAPA and then being surprised when one can't attend a meeting or vote, getting riled up at a simple call sign change, taking pleasure in others' misfortunes [lurkers I will not use that German word], there are still rational people with whom you can deal. Obviously you agree because you are not wasting your time talking to me: you know the lurkers will decide, and you're right.

I like some of your ideas, and think you are on the right track by moving this debate to the ballot box. The court system will never provide a resolution totally acceptable to all (an analogy might be divorce proceeding or property settlement). Like it or not, it's going to take dialogue and a negotiation.

Something to think about: it's asking a lot -- perhaps all -- for these guys to give up the Nic. What, if anything, to you propose to fill that gap? Negotiations involve solving problems with many moving pieces. You're not going to be able to cement the Nic without moving these other pieces around. And simply reminding lurkers that the Nic was "already agreed to" is not a workable answer, because such an answer sidesteps the inevitable emotional response.

I commented earlier that most of the benefits from a future contract will have to go to the east, to bring the east up to where the west already is. What's left then in the money pot to make the east guys happy? Giving up Nic and simply becoming "average" won't fly. And if you give the east more, will you face a mutiny from your Army of Leonidas?

I'll agree with the last 5 years. BTW, there was no poop, only the accusation of poop. Theuer said he had poop, and threatened to bring out the poop, but failed to produce the poop. Poop in the mail is a serious federal offense (I'm not talking odor). I told Theuer that if there be poop, one should press the poop charges to the fullest extent. Again NO POOP.

Judge Silver will put a certain end to this. My guess: She will not give the company a pass on a possible hybrid DFR. You should read the transcripts and pay close attention to what the company lawyer says about the Nicolau seniority list. You will get the picture.

What buys the Nic? That is the Multi-million dollar question. Essentially a contract that is as good or superior to the current AWA contract (admittedly better than LOA93 AND what our NAC is attempting to "negotiate') + LOTS and LOTS of GREEN MONEY $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

What is your dollar amount? Mine is at least DAL current wages for fleet types. BTW, I'm not a big fan of a common wage for all fleet types: More seats, more $$...PERIOD. Also remember that the company has financially planned for $120 Million increase starting 2007 (for instance). Well that's $600,000,000.00 that the company has been "planning" on spending. Where is that $$?? That would make for a big signing bonus as far as I'm concerned (AWA pilots got a signing bonus for Contract 2004: I don't recall the $$ amount, but it was a nice piece of change).

One other thought: When a contract is signed the east pilots will have the most amount of the pie anyway. Let's say NB Captains end up with $185.00 per hour pay. They get a $60.00 per hour raise. The West NB Captain gets only $43.00 per hour raise.

The longer we wait the more money that we all lose. It's time.

 

[vetrider]

Despite many emotional and sometimes irrational events (mailing poop,

QUOTE]

Just because you mailed poop doesn't mean you need to drag the rest of us into it.

 

[Bringupthebird]

One other thought: When a contract is signed the east pilots will have the most amount of the pie anyway. Let's say NB Captains end up with $185.00 per hour pay. They get a $60.00 per hour raise. The West NB Captain gets only $43.00 per hour raise.

Where do the pilots get the leverage to attain anything better than what the company offers? $185? C'mon. Maybe with FAR work rules and no health insurance, you might see $165.

 

[Taco Rocket]

What exactly is a hybrid DFR? Why would the company be involved in a DFR lawsuit? I don't follow what you're saying. I honestly don't know and can't follow your argument.

And Bird, I see you either don't get what I'm trying to say or don't agree. That's fine. But I recommend backing away (at least in public) from the us versus them banter that has become this debate. Nothing is a capitulation; it's an ongoing negotiation.

 

[cactusboy53]

Where do the pilots get the leverage to attain anything better than what the company offers? $185? C'mon. Maybe with FAR work rules and no health insurance, you might see $165.

Bird;
I was simply using the figure as a median example of an airplane wage. DAL currently pays $208.72 for B747, $197.15 for A330/B767 Captains, $174.70 for B757, $167.53 for B737NG, and $161.65 for A320/319.

There is a rumor running around that won't die that Parker offered USAPA the AWA contract w/ current DAL wages when he was making a play for UAL. Kind of an end run play to see if USAPA would give up on the DOH chase and the potential harm of the Change of Control clause (IMHO).

I think Parker wants this done bad enough that he may offer this again in the hopes of putting this train wreck to bed.

CB

 

[cactusboy53]

What exactly is a hybrid DFR? Why would the company be involved in a DFR lawsuit? I don't follow what you're saying. I honestly don't know and can't follow your argument.

And Bird, I see you either don't get what I'm trying to say or don't agree. That's fine. But I recommend backing away (at least in public) from the us versus them banter that has become this debate. Nothing is a capitulation; it's an ongoing negotiation.

A hybrid DFR lawsuit is where a party (Leonidas) can enjoin not one but two (or more parties) in a DFR claim (LCC & USAPA). LCC was "excused" from the first DFR proceedings by Judge Wake (Addington v. USAPA). This is why the company is now seeking a Declaratory Judgement from the district court. They are asking Judge Silver if they can be sued if they use a seniority list other than the Nicolau (essentially).

If you go to www.cactuspilot.com you can read all arbitration and court proceedings. Anyone can access this web site, and it does not require you to log on or leave a password. I would encourage everyone involved to take the time to read the arbitration & various law suits. It's a tough read, but will truly open your eyes into USAPA's house of cards.

 

[Taco Rocket]

If you go to www.cactuspilot.com you can read all arbitration and court proceedings. Anyone can access this web site, and it does not require you to log on or leave a password. I would encourage everyone involved to take the time to read the arbitration & various law suits. It's a tough read, but will truly open your eyes into USAPA's house of cards.

OK I got it -- I am familiar with the idea but not that terminology.

Can you get me guest access to the message board on cactuspilot.com?

 

[Carl S.]

Seeking information other than offical USAPA sources is forbidden to East pilots!!!!! Do not let the lemmings stop going off the cliff. Seek the truth, it may set you free ( from USAPA that is!!)

 

[Guppiedriver]

Can you get me guest access to the message board on cactuspilot.com?

Are you an east pilot? If you are, just can sign up as a member. The more easties we have over there, the better.

 

[Tweaker]

Poop Thread!!!

Can anyone explain this reflexive fear of a word because it has German origins? (shadenfreude)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schadenfreude

If it makes it palatable, you can use the Norwegian, Swedish or Danish spellings, referenced above.

 

[doh]

Now when does the court rule on the company motion?

 

[captfred]

Now when does the court rule on the company motion?

Each side gets a final doc submission in Jan and then she will have a short hearing in Feb. Her final ruling should not be more than a month or 2 after that.

 

[cactusboy53]

Now when does the court rule on the company motion?

Briefs filed no later than January 17th. Responses by February 10th (she was feeling generous, & gave USAPA's legal team an extra week). Pages 35-39 of the December 1st hearing's transcripts. Decision (IMHO) by the end of February to the end of March.

It's an interesting read to be sure. The Declaratory Relief Transcripts and all other legal documents available to ANYONE at www.cactuspilot.com

 

[St. Nic]

Then another trip to the 9th, another defeat for the Army of Losers

 

[Ocity]

Then another trip to the 9th, another defeat for the Army of Losers

Actually, I'm starting to think usapa will finally move on. The failures have been to great and all to frequent. I get the feeling an appeal is 50/50. It depends how thoroughly Silver destroys USLAPA.

 

[cactusboy53]

Then another trip to the 9th, another defeat for the Army of Losers

Yea, we're losing alright. You REALLY should read some of the court transcripts vs. listening to el Presidente Mikey. You would learn a lot.

See you in the voting booth for the new contract. I'll be the guy with the big smile and hearty hand shake.

 

[doh]

Read page 32 of the Thursday, December 1 transcript. Looks like a biotch slapping to me.

 

[Metrojet]

Yea, we're losing alright. You REALLY should read some of the court transcripts vs. listening to el Presidente Mikey. You would learn a lot.

See you in the voting booth for the new contract. I'll be the guy with the big smile and hearty hand shake.

Hi CB -

Since your voting "for" the new contract - i have two questions - what is going to be in it and when do we get to vote "for" or "against". Please share

Metrojet

 

[cactusboy53]

Hi CB -

Since your voting "for" the new contract - i have two questions - what is going to be in it and when do we get to vote "for" or "against". Please share

Metrojet

No matter how badly the vocal minority wish to evade the Nicolau, the reality is setting in that the joint contract will include an unrestricted Nicolau.

Further, you need to look at the moves by all three parties: Most recently, LCC asks for the courts to basically tell them (LCC) what list may/ may not/ must be used. I (IMHO) think this is a very telling move. Parker and LCC want this put to bed sooner rather than later. I think Parker has squeezed about as much $$$$$ out of our division as possible, and needs a joint contract to move to a more realistic chance at another merger. This merger has eclipsed EVERY OTHER airline merger in nonsense.

Next is the rumor that won't die regarding an offer by LCC (during the last UAL attempt) of the AWA contract + DAL wages. If this is a fact, how many more times will the collective east body turn their nose up at it because it's not date of hire?

I think the MAJORITY of the East pilots (mostly silent) are fed up with this little circus. We have the tools to change our independent union to actually be an effective democratic body (vs. a DELAY machine). I think we could see a positive change in our CBL's and toward a contract. The $64,000 questions are: 1) Are there enough Members in Good standing that are paying attention to what is going on, and willing to vote with common sense vs. emotion. 2) How badly does LCC want a joint contract, and exactly what are they willing to pay for it?

Lurkers:

1. Please be informed: Go to www.cactuspilot.com and read the legal documents and other documents.
2. Please be sure that you are a member in good standing, so that you can participate and vote.
3. Join us (east & west) at: http://cp.cactuspilots.us This is a forum that we can discuss, share information together, and have spirited debates. There are only a handful of east guys there, and you are all welcome.
4. Please join us if you tired of the current USAPA circus: www.reformusapa.com. There are three petitions there. EVEN if you completely disagree with the Nicolau, the other two petitions are NO BRAINERS.

 

[MCDU]

No matter how badly the vocal minority wish to evade the Nicolau, the reality is setting in that the joint contract will include an unrestricted Nicolau.

Further, you need to look at the moves by all three parties: Most recently, LCC asks for the courts to basically tell them (LCC) what list may/ may not/ must be used. I (IMHO) think this is a very telling move. Parker and LCC want this put to bed sooner rather than later. I think Parker has squeezed about as much $$$$$ out of our division as possible, and needs a joint contract to move to a more realistic chance at another merger. This merger has eclipsed EVERY OTHER airline merger in nonsense.

Next is the rumor that won't die regarding an offer by LCC (during the last UAL attempt) of the AWA contract + DAL wages. If this is a fact, how many more times will the collective east body turn their nose up at it because it's not date of hire?

I think the MAJORITY of the East pilots (mostly silent) are fed up with this little circus. We have the tools to change our independent union to actually be an effective democratic body (vs. a DELAY machine). I think we could see a positive change in our CBL's and toward a contract. The $64,000 questions are: 1) Are there enough Members in Good standing that are paying attention to what is going on, and willing to vote with common sense vs. emotion. 2) How badly does LCC want a joint contract, and exactly what are they willing to pay for it?

Lurkers:

1. Please be informed: Go to www.cactuspilot.com and read the legal documents and other documents.
2. Please be sure that you are a member in good standing, so that you can participate and vote.
3. Join us (east & west) at: http://cp.cactuspilots.us This is a forum that we can discuss, share information together, and have spirited debates. There are only a handful of east guys there, and you are all welcome.
4. Please join us if you tired of the current USAPA circus: www.reformusapa.com. There are three petitions there. EVEN if you completely disagree with the Nicolau, the other two petitions are NO BRAINERS.

You are so out of touch with reality Dave. Let me guess. You believe in Adam and Eve as well. Anyway, I hope your house did not foreclose in PHX. I know it is creating a lot of heart burn for many Westies. Good luck, I realize you overextended yourselves with believing you would have upgraded.

95% of East pilots will vote no if the seniority proposal included the Nic. Under Nic we would go back to separate voting like the ALPA proposal called for. No changing how the Nic was intended to be voted on. Otherwise DFR.

Under the DOH with C and R proposal. One vote and a DFR.

By the way, my pay just went up 30 dollars an hour in March. How bout yours.

We remain separate and we could re-brand the West operation to MDA-2. Same airline, Union, callsign, you just can not bid over. Just like your beloved ALPA did. Seemed fair to the MDA pilots.

Maybe if we merge we can show the MDA-2 pilots as furloughed on our list. Just like ALPA did. That seems fair. You would get a staple. Just like the MDA pilots.

M

 

[cactusboy53]

You are so out of touch with reality Dave. Let me guess. You believe in Adam and Eve as well. Anyway, I hope your house did not foreclose in PHX. I know it is creating a lot of heart burn for many Westies. Good luck, I realize you overextended yourselves with believing you would have upgraded.

95% of East pilots will vote no if the seniority proposal included the Nic. Under Nic we would go back to separate voting like the ALPA proposal called for. No changing how the Nic was intended to be voted on. Otherwise DFR.

Under the DOH with C and R proposal. One vote and a DFR.

By the way, my pay just went up 30 dollars an hour in March. How bout yours.

We remain separate and we could re-brand the West operation to MDA-2. Same airline, Union, callsign, you just can not bid over. Just like your beloved ALPA did. Seemed fair to the MDA pilots.

Maybe if we merge we can show the MDA-2 pilots as furloughed on our list. Just like ALPA did. That seems fair. You would get a staple. Just like the MDA pilots.

M

I must say Marty, that this was one of your most desperate posts. BTW I do believe in Adam & Eve, and I believe the bible is the inspired word of God.

I'm so glad that you took the time to poll all of the east pilots to confirm that 95% of them won't accept a contract with the Nicolau, thus keeping them on LOA93 ad infinitum.

Good for your $30 pay raise! That means that you now subscribe to the "I've got mine, you get yours" club. If that means you are now a Captain at the new US Airways then you were SERIOUSLY JUNIOR.

We remain separate until enough of your senior people figure out that delay, loss of wage & time off, and heart ache is all USAPA bought.

BTW, I don't live anywhere near PHX. I am sitting much closer to PHL and CLT (didn't you see the deciduous trees in the background of my FB picture that you swiped earlier?).

Lurkers:
The post that Marty put out is decidedly one that reeks of desperation. He now has his Captain seat and is making a whole $30 more an hour. Every year that USAPA delays a new contract (for we now now that the Nicolau Award can never be cast aside), it is costing you over (at least) $45,000.00, time off and contract improvements.

Are you tired of the current USAPA circus? Are you ready for a change? Do you want a better contract and wage improvements this coming year?

YES! YES! YES!.....

1. Please be informed: Go to www.cactuspilot.com and read the legal documents and other documents.
2. Please be sure that you are a member in good standing, so that you can participate and vote.
3. Join us (east & west) at: http://cp.cactuspilots.us This is a forum that we can discuss, share information together, and have spirited debates. There are only a handful of east guys there, and you are all welcome.
4. Please join us if you tired of the current USAPA circus: www.reformusapa.com. There are three petitions there. EVEN if you completely disagree with the Nicolau, the other two petitions are NO BRAINERS.

CB

 

[PHXFLYR]

Then another trip to the 9th,another defeat for the Army of Losers[/QUOTE]




So is that how they're referring to the east pilots nowadays ?

PHXFLYR