Usapa has to go.

[Metrojet]

I'll bet it's sooner than that, Chuck. A lot depends on what Judge Silver has to say, what the company has to say after that, and how much $$$$ it will take the east pilots to swallow an much improved contract with the Nicolau seniority list. Don't like the contract and $$$......Vote NO. The beauty of the contract vote is that you can always tell your co-worker that you voted NO all the way!

I will never be a wide body Captain, and frankly I am much more in favor of sleeping vs. flying in the dark (I guess you shouldn't do both). By the time this boils out, I should have my choice between reserve CA in PHX or lineholder NB in the other bases (IMHO).

So - Let me figure out how you are reserve CA in PHX but would be blockholder NB in CLT - so the Nic gives you super seniority in CLT? I thought you guys keep saying the Nic was fair - if your RELATIVE position in one base should give you the same RELATIVE position in PHX and CLT - how are you a blockholder in one base and just a reserve in your original base?

And don't give me the spin there are more lines vs reserve in CLT than PHX - give me actual numbers and ratio's of lines/reserve lines and positions.

Awaiting your calculations CB

Metrojet

 

[ultrarunner]

Cactus never mentioned CLT.....

 

[cactusboy53]

So - Let me figure out how you are reserve CA in PHX but would be blockholder NB in CLT - so the Nic gives you super seniority in CLT? I thought you guys keep saying the Nic was fair - if your RELATIVE position in one base should give you the same RELATIVE position in PHX and CLT - how are you a blockholder in one base and just a reserve in your original base?

And don't give me the spin there are more lines vs reserve in CLT than PHX - give me actual numbers and ratio's of lines/reserve lines and positions.

Awaiting your calculations CB

Metrojet

Simple, here's how you figure it out: 3 parties agreed to the process. Process complete. All three parties (while some may complain), shake hands and move on. DONE. OVER. END OF STORY. COMPLETED. Just like that. The Nicolau didn't give #518 "super seniority" (that would be the first AWA pilot on the combined seniority list), it gave him an excrement sandwich....BUT we agreed to the process.

I figure in a couple of years my seniority number will allow me to hold a lineholder CA in PHL (most likely), DCA or CLT (less likely). I believe the guys that are near my seniority on the Nic are now bidding NB captains at some bases. Some may even be line holders now.

No spin. Just the agreed upon process and all parties moving on (vs. the larger pilot group attempting to evade the final product of that process by any and all means). Don't worry Metro...everyone gets what a bunch of double dealing USAPIAN's are. We get that none of the USAPAIAN faithful can EVER be held at their word. We get that we will NEVER be able to trust any USAPAIN faithful any further than we can throw them. Everyone else that is watching gets it too. The pariahs of the Commercial Aviation industry.

Don't worry, the end draws near. Judge Silver will make her decision, the company will abide by that decision, USAPA will attempt to appeal to someone for the decision. All the while, there will be east pilots that finally get they have been sold a bag of goods that NEVER could be delivered. They will realize there will be no pot of gold, no 3%, no snap back, no retro, and no improved contract without one that contains the Nicolau.

Delay, delay, delay, delay.......that's all that's been purchased, and at a tremendous cost. Pity.

 

[Bringupthebird]

Absent this DJ move by the company we might possibly be voting on a new contract (containing DOH) in a few months which would be expensive to the company. Yes yes yes I know that you guys will file a DFR II/injunction but you can only do that if we have a new contract remember "ripeness"? The company does not want to pay us one penny more so this DJ is a great delay tactic. Seniority is a section of a contract and sections can be negotiated and when a section is "closed" it can be re-opened during the negotiation process. After all sections are agreed upon and a contract is ratified by the members then it becomes a contract. One section has never nor will ever be a "contract". That being said you may very well prevail in DFR II but as you know that will happen years after a contract containing DOH.

Bull. If that was the case that contract would have been ratified 2 years ago. The seniority integration methodology is what makes a first joint contract very different from subsequent contracts dealing with a combined pilot group. That's why it went through the negotiation/mediation/arbitration protocol and precisely why the arbitration can not be overturned by a majority vote of angry pilots. Silver will explain all that if you ask her.

 

[Metrojet]

Simple, here's how you figure it out: 3 parties agreed to the process. Process complete. All three parties (while some may complain), shake hands and move on. DONE. OVER. END OF STORY. COMPLETED. Just like that. The Nicolau didn't give #518 "super seniority" (that would be the first AWA pilot on the combined seniority list), it gave him an excrement sandwich....BUT we agreed to the process.

I figure in a couple of years my seniority number will allow me to hold a lineholder CA in PHL (most likely), DCA or CLT (less likely). I believe the guys that are near my seniority on the Nic are now bidding NB captains at some bases. Some may even be line holders now.

No spin. Just the agreed upon process and all parties moving on (vs. the larger pilot group attempting to evade the final product of that process by any and all means). Don't worry Metro...everyone gets what a bunch of double dealing USAPIAN's are. We get that none of the USAPAIAN faithful can EVER be held at their word. We get that we will NEVER be able to trust any USAPAIN faithful any further than we can throw them. Everyone else that is watching gets it too. The pariahs of the Commercial Aviation industry.

Don't worry, the end draws near. Judge Silver will make her decision, the company will abide by that decision, USAPA will attempt to appeal to someone for the decision. All the while, there will be east pilots that finally get they have been sold a bag of goods that NEVER could be delivered. They will realize there will be no pot of gold, no 3%, no snap back, no retro, and no improved contract without one that contains the Nicolau.

Delay, delay, delay, delay.......that's all that's been purchased, and at a tremendous cost. Pity.

Hey CB -

I really thought you were more of one of the civil folks around here who was trying to find a resolution to this mess - but the initial part of your reply seems to be a little heated "DONE OVER END OF STORY" - end quote.

It is far from over - even if you think judge silver is going to slam something down our throats.

But getting back to my original request - how does the Nic make someone who is a reserve CPT in PHX - now a blockholder in PHL/DCA or maybe CLT? Isn't that super seniority - unless you can show me how the numbers make that happen - but you didn't want and/or can't?

Metrojet

 

[waveflyer]

Sorry metro jet- he's right. And the east is wrong-
Sitting on LOA 93 at less than Virgin wages isn't going to change that. Just going to keep your lives bad, and make every pilots work keeping wages up, or getting them up, that much more difficult.
From someone with no dog in the fight- who doesn't care about the morality of your stance- the undercutting isn't appreciated. The whole move is dumb. There were a 1000 times, when usair east should have taken a stand- this fight against the west isn't it, and it makes you look really stupid and weak. I only wish you guys would have been half as strong when all those CEO's were coming in and raping the place-

 

[St. Nic]

Sorry metro jet- he's right. And the east is wrong-
Sitting on LOA 93 at less than Virgin wages isn't going to change that. Just going to keep your lives bad, and make every pilots work keeping wages up, or getting them up, that much more difficult.
From someone with no dog in the fight- who doesn't care about the morality of your stance- the undercutting isn't appreciated. The whole move is dumb. There were a 1000 times, when usair east should have taken a stand- this fight against the west isn't it, and it makes you look really stupid and weak. I only wish you guys would have been half as strong when all those CEO's were coming in and raping the place-

It was ALPA that allowed all the bad things to happen dude. Clue phone- hello? Yeah Wave, a village needs you back!

 

[waveflyer]

And just who is ALPA and who is responsible for your version of alpa?

 

[waveflyer]

Loa93

Think about the apathy and victim participation in a union it takes to have 93 financially detrimental changes to your contract w/o a vote and the pilot group does nothing....???

FedEx, UAL, DAL, swapa, APA, all require member ratification to do what was done to you- when does the east get to be responsible for the east? Instead of this inane projection bullying by numbers against the west.
I've never understood it- all that has happened to you, and the Nic award is what you decide to fight??

 

[Fubijaakr]

Instead of this inane projection bullying by numbers against the west.
I've never understood it-

Ironic post of the decade!

 

[cactusboy53]

Hey CB -

I really thought you were more of one of the civil folks around here who was trying to find a resolution to this mess - but the initial part of your reply seems to be a little heated "DONE OVER END OF STORY" - end quote.

It is far from over - even if you think judge silver is going to slam something down our throats.

But getting back to my original request - how does the Nic make someone who is a reserve CPT in PHX - now a blockholder in PHL/DCA or maybe CLT? Isn't that super seniority - unless you can show me how the numbers make that happen - but you didn't want and/or can't?

Metrojet

I am one of the more civil folks. This has gone on for 4-5 years because one party refused to accept the end product of an agreed upon process. That IS the resolution.

Further, my "union" thought it would be a great idea to attempt to persecute 18+ of our pilots on RICO charges (FAILED NOT ONCE, BUT TWICE at a cost of a couple hundred thousand to our union and personal cost of the Cactus 18 of $5000.00+).

Judge Silver will instruct USAPA (just like every other court has) & the company what is legally binding. USAPA will appeal (what a surprise), and they will LOSE (because frankly, there hasn't been ANY big wins...just DELAY).

There is not much math to this: There are more pilots if you combine CLT, DCA & PHL vs. PHX. There really isn't THAT much difference in age groups, BTW. Now if look at the guy that is above me on the Nicolau list: Is he / she a captain right now? YEP.

Done. End of Story. Finito. Delay all you want. Your group (and mine) will NEVER recover the lost time off and wages in this battle. Eventually the Nicolau award will be upheld as the only seniority list to be used.

The reason for my "attitude": USAPA has used my dues money (and that of all other employed AWA pilots) against our group. We have been forced to defend our position at great financial cost. As they say down under: That's just not cricket!

 

[cactusboy53]

It was ALPA that allowed all the bad things to happen dude. Clue phone- hello? Yeah Wave, a village needs you back!

Oh, haven't hear that in a while...."It' all ALPA's fault!!!" :bawling::crying:

Hey, Nicky!
Aren't you going to answer the following from one of my westie pals (only posted 2-3 times so far):

".. do me a favor and just post/ask this guy (you, Nicky), if DOH is the gold standard, How come the largest merger in our history did not go DOH, aka Delta/NWA? Just curious. Of course SWA/Airtran, and while your at it ask him if ALPA is negotiating DOH at UAL/CAL? Unbelievable. USLURPA wants us to have our career expectations? Great...negotiate a list that gets me a 7 year upgrade which is not what we were promised but IN THE MIDST OF when we merged with these delusional incompetents. NIC took this ALL into account."

Awaiting your well thought out response.......

 

[Turtle21]

Sorry metro jet- he's right. And the east is wrong-
Sitting on LOA 93 at less than Virgin wages isn't going to change that. Just going to keep your lives bad, and make every pilots work keeping wages up, or getting them up, that much more difficult.
From someone with no dog in the fight- who doesn't care about the morality of your stance- the undercutting isn't appreciated. The whole move is dumb. There were a 1000 times, when usair east should have taken a stand- this fight against the west isn't it, and it makes you look really stupid and weak. I only wish you guys would have been half as strong when all those CEO's were coming in and raping the place-

Metro is in the minority. And you don't even have a vote, yet how ALPA rep of you to believe you are smarter than the electorate. "The majority is unimportant and not nearly smart enough to know what is best for the majority of pilots." <sneer>

The obstructionists that refuse to accept the majority and move forward are only half the problem. The "larger" half of the problem is the company who gleefully exploits the division that the minority keeps clinging too.

 

[cactusboy53]

Metro is in the minority. And you don't even have a vote, yet how ALPA rep of you to believe you are smarter than the electorate. "The majority is unimportant and not nearly smart enough to know what is best for the majority of pilots." <sneer>

The obstructionists that refuse to accept the majority and move forward are only half the problem. The "larger" half of the problem is the company who gleefully exploits the division that the minority keeps clinging too.

Would you be kind enough to explain whom you are talking about. Thank you.

 

[Carl S.]

The company knows USAPA is on a fool's mission and is taking full advantage of it. Till the East pilots are ready to accept what they signed up for, the company will play them and LOA 93 will rule. The ball is in the East pilot's court, do not blame ANYONE but yourselfs for where you stand.