USAPA files with NMB!

[ALGFLYR]

I don't want to start a flame war so please don't flame here. As a new hire I am just trying to understand the situation a little better.

Does it seem that an overwhelming majority of East pilots are in favor of new representation or is just a large group? Is the main focus of USAPA to change the seniority integration award or to provide better representation for both East and West pilots? Are there any West pilots that feel that USAPA would better represent their interests?

First of all, welcome to our dysfunctional family :laugh: . Secondly, I don't get involved in "flame wars", so you won't see that from me.

Anyway, it does seem like an overwhelming majority. USAPA has over 3000 cards. They say that they have a card from 90% of the east pilots. That's a large group.

I think the main focus of the new union will be to protect the attrition coming from the East side of the operation for the East pilots. They will obviousily want higher pay and better work rules that will be good for both East and West.

As for your last question, I'm sure most of the West pilots do not support this movement, USAPA DOES have cards from current West pilots. I'm not sure how many, but there are some....

 

[BeCareful!]

What Prater and ALPA should do is sit back and see how the vote goes down. If the USAir pilots vote in a new union, then say it was nice working with you. ALPA is not, or rather, should not be, in business simply for itself. As a representative of the pilots who should be looking out for the best interests of the pilots, ALPA should be more than willing to say goodbye to a pilot group that decides its best interests lie with different representation.

I couldn't agree more. I find the fear and loathing being spread by ALPA somewhat offensive, but also sort of funny. I really like how there are all these predictions about how much money USAPA is going to need to conduct business; ALPA can't have a meeting without blowing $50,000, I'm sure. But the detractors aren't factoring in a much less bloated cost structure for USAPA.

I also laugh at the repeated notion that East pilots think Nic goes away without ALPA. We all know this is not the case, and it doesn't matter whatsoever; we want ALPA outta here for a laundry list of other reasons. I have no pipe dream of the Nic "award" going away, but we must rid ourselves of ALPA before another merger gets screwed up by their Merger (non)"Policy."

And, yes, there are a few enlightened West pilots who see the value of this. Think you can't get screwed on the next merger if you're ALPA Westies? Think again. You won the lottery this time, but such might not be the case in Consolidation. Round II.

Anyway, should be interesting.

 

[regionaltard]

The suspension of disbelief required for usapa to have gotten this far is amazing. Come to think of it, it's pretty much the same as what was required to cling to the D'OH pipe dream. Whatever those guys are smoking, I sure hope it's still available when I retire...

 

[Green]

I think a new hire would be insane to vote USAPA. Basically it will create a civil war within the airline where 1800 pilots refuse to pay dues and USAPA will be fighting off multiple lawsuits from the very beginning. Any attempt to circumvent the NIC award will be an instant DFR lawsuit. Alpa was a neutral party in the NIC award and merely set up the process for negotiations, mediation, and finally arbitration. If USAPA tries to write a list they will be directly violating their duty of fair reprsentation.

So as a newhire you would be looking at 3 years at the very minimum before reaching a new contract. You would be making $40/hr and change for atleast three years with crappy work rules and only 7 days or so of vacation. The company has already offered the West contract which would put second year pay at around 62/hr and third year pay around 73/hr. Plus you would start at 21 days of vacation with better reserve rules, dh pay, etc....

Obviously as a newhire you would be on the bottom of the list no matter the outcome so a USAPA drive would merely serve to cost you 50k+ over the next three years plus 2 weeks of vacation per year and miserable workrules. A junior guy like Weasel Lips or BeCareful could stand to benefit by upgrading out of seniority under USAPA but for a newhire USAPA only costs money and quality of life. .

 

[trainer8]

I think a new hire would be insane to vote USAPA. Basically it will create a civil war within the airline where 1800 pilots refuse to pay dues and USAPA will be fighting off multiple lawsuits from the very beginning. Any attempt to circumvent the NIC award will be an instant DFR lawsuit. Alpa was a neutral party in the NIC award and merely set up the process for negotiations, mediation, and finally arbitration. If USAPA tries to write a list they will be directly violating their duty of fair reprsentation.

So as a newhire you would be looking at 3 years at the very minimum before reaching a new contract. You would be making $40/hr and change for atleast three years with crappy work rules and only 7 days or so of vacation. The company has already offered the West contract which would put second year pay at around 62/hr and third year pay around 73/hr. Plus you would start at 21 days of vacation with better reserve rules, dh pay, etc....

Obviously as a newhire you would be on the bottom of the list no matter the outcome so a USAPA drive would merely serve to cost you 50k+ over the next three years plus 2 weeks of vacation per year and miserable workrules. A junior guy like Weasel Lips or BeCareful could stand to benefit by upgrading out of seniority under USAPA but for a newhire USAPA only costs money and quality of life. .

You forgot to tell him what HE brings to the table, why he should get all of those West benefits.

 

[Soulfly]

Oh, just wait folks.

Mergers are on the horizon. And unless UsairWays mergers with SWA or AA, it will be ALPA merger policy that will be controlling, not USAPA policy. Just due to the fact that NWA, DAL, CAL,UA all have a larger pilot group, and some other legal precedents.

Get ready for a staple of the UsAirways pilots to whatever airline. This is the harsh reality people.

Good luck of us.

 

[ALGFLYR]

So as a newhire you would be looking at 3 years at the very minimum before reaching a new contract. You would be making $40/hr and change for atleast three years with crappy work rules and only 7 days or so of vacation. The company has already offered the West contract which would put second year pay at around 62/hr and third year pay around 73/hr. ...

Where did you get this information??? Are you trying to spread fear and deception???

Here are the FACTS!

A new hire on the 190 will make 41.22 per hour the first year. (BTW, that's MORE than 1st year pay at American, Continental, Northwest, United, and even UPS, not to mention current AWA rates)

The second year, the pilot will be able to move to a group I or II aircraft and probably even the 330. 2nd year group II pay (737 or Airbus) is 56.53 and 3rd year is 61.61.

Second year Group I pay (757/767) is 65.86 and 3rd year is 71.73 (more than you say the company proposed - are we gonna accept a lower rate?)

Second year pay on the 330 is 72.96 and 3rd year is 79.46.

These are straight out of the East contract.

 

[Soulfly]

Usairways

Group2 2nd year pay - 56.53
3rd - 61.61

SWA 2nd year pay - 88.00
3rd - 98.00
7th - 124.00

Notice that last number. The same pay rate as a 20 year AAA captain.

Pathetic. Oh yeah, few more weeks of vacation. 5 or 6 more days off a month.

So whilst most people that live outside of this little battle, we are f-ing ourselves out of some serious money and QOL.

Not saying we are going to get SWA rates but come on, A 7 year SWA fo makes as much, actually probably more than AAA captain. WOW!

What about all the guys that commute to PHL, CLT, BOS from the west coast, I bet most of them would like to be based out west.

Oh, and just for the record, a merger took place. You see this has some ramifications. For both sides.
To think that it does not, then you my friend are ignorant.

 

[get2flyin]

I think a new hire would be insane to vote USAPA. ................. .

Can a new-hire on probation even vote?

The suspension of disbelief required for usapa to have gotten this far is amazing. Come to think of it, it's pretty much the same as what was required to cling to the D'OH pipe dream. Whatever those guys are smoking, I sure hope it's still available when I retire...

Hey, I think the whole thing is a bunch of BS, top to bottom. With that said, if I was an East pilot I would have submitted a card even if I thought ALPA was the best thing ever. It's good to rock the boat from time to time even if you know flipping it will cause it to sink.

It's one thing to get a guy to submit a card. It's another thing to get him to do what he knows is ethically wrong, a waste of his money, and a waste of everybody's time. But hey, that's just my opinion. Good luck with that.

 

[PA-22]

If a pilot flies during a union strike, he/she is a scab.
What do you call a pilot that wants to decertify the union that once got you the highest pay in the market just because he/she didn't like the results of a seniority integration? That, by the way, was done by a third person.

 

[iflyhigh]

ALGFLYR:

East guys get paid less guarantee than a West guy. Your long call guys get 6? hours, while the West guys get 77.

Thus a reserve on the West pay/guarantee, makes about the same as an East pilot pay/guarantee.

If you like I can show you the spread sheet.

 

[Green]

Where did you get this information??? Are you trying to spread fear and deception???

Here are the FACTS!

A new hire on the 190 will make 41.22 per hour the first year. (BTW, that's MORE than 1st year pay at American, Continental, Northwest, United, and even UPS, not to mention current AWA rates)

The second year, the pilot will be able to move to a group I or II aircraft and probably even the 330. 2nd year group II pay (737 or Airbus) is 56.53 and 3rd year is 61.61.

Second year Group I pay (757/767) is 65.86 and 3rd year is 71.73 (more than you say the company proposed - are we gonna accept a lower rate?)

Second year pay on the 330 is 72.96 and 3rd year is 79.46.

These are straight out of the East contract.

ALG....

YES I'M TRYING TO SPREAD FEAR AND DECEPTION!!!!! PRETTY SCARY HUH?

no...I was assuming that many newhires will get stuck in the right seat of the 190. There are only a combined couple hundred retirements next year and if age 60 goes then there will probably be little or no movement. I wouldn't put it past Parker to park a few more aiprlanes and replace them with 190's. Someone has to fly in the right seat of those things and correct me if I'm wrong (you seem to have a good grasp of the facts) but the pay stagnates in the 40/hr range....Right?

So absent a new contract, which will NOT happen under USAPA, those guys/gals are going to be stuck at 40k/year, 7 days of vacation, and the worst work rules in the bizz. Not to mention they will almost undoubtebly be assesed to pay for your pipe dream of a lawsuit....the whole thing would be funny if it wasn't so sad...I know if I was a newhire brought on to the east side i would not pay for any seniority lawsuit assesments.

The one thing i find most offensive is all the rhetoric that USAPA isn't about the nic award. At least be honest about the whole thing...

 

[Green]

Can a new-hire on probation even vote?

Good luck with that.

yes a newhire will be able to vote. Anybody employed or expecting recall will be able to vote.

 

[get2flyin]

yes a newhire will be able to vote. Anybody employed or expecting recall will be able to vote.

Well, at least we're all off the hook with the "expecting a recall" camp.

 

[weasel_lips]

I think a new hire would be insane to vote USAPA. Basically it will create a civil war within the airline where 1800 pilots refuse to pay dues and USAPA will be fighting off multiple lawsuits from the very beginning. Any attempt to circumvent the NIC award will be an instant DFR lawsuit. Alpa was a neutral party in the NIC award and merely set up the process for negotiations, mediation, and finally arbitration. If USAPA tries to write a list they will be directly violating their duty of fair reprsentation.

So as a newhire you would be looking at 3 years at the very minimum before reaching a new contract. You would be making $40/hr and change for atleast three years with crappy work rules and only 7 days or so of vacation. The company has already offered the West contract which would put second year pay at around 62/hr and third year pay around 73/hr. Plus you would start at 21 days of vacation with better reserve rules, dh pay, etc....

Obviously as a newhire you would be on the bottom of the list no matter the outcome so a USAPA drive would merely serve to cost you 50k+ over the next three years plus 2 weeks of vacation per year and miserable workrules. A junior guy like Weasel Lips or BeCareful could stand to benefit by upgrading out of seniority under USAPA but for a newhire USAPA only costs money and quality of life. .

A new hire on the east would be best served by remaining separate (no joint contract).

A joint contract is going to cost them 1,800 seniority numbers. Delay their upgrade for several years, and subject them to certain furlough should we start losing money.

A joint contract means furlough for East pilots when the economy tanks.

I personally would rather make a little less $, then to be furlough protection for West pilots with a DOH after mine