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USAJet Unionized
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pilotyip
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Where would you like to start?
I assume you are talking about meeting with Marty Goldman on Monday 7-7-97? Where issues were discussed over free pizza in the Packard Hanger. Let us start at issue #1 "There is no pilot policy manual". Response "We will build a pilot policy manual", and a policy manual was produced and is still in use today as a guideline on dealing with pilots. Issue #2 "Reduction in days off and pay". Response "We will hopefully be able to start restoring those items in August 97” DC-9 went from 8 days off per month to 12 days off every 28 day bid period, pay for the top DC-9 Capt went from $81/hr on a 55 hr guarantee or $4455 per month to $170/hr with a 45 hr guarantee or $7650 per month, thats a 72% increase. Anyonme else out there think a 72% increase is no change in pay? However you say nothing has changed since 1997, nope nothing at all, you are so in tune, is there something else you might like to address? We still have not discussed itmes 3 throught 24, if you want over the next couple days I will be glad to address every one of them. If you were at that meeting I have you narrowed down to about 4 people, you can come by and see me and discuss this or we can hang it out here in a public form. Ball is in your court.
I assume you are talking about meeting with Marty Goldman on Monday 7-7-97? Where issues were discussed over free pizza in the Packard Hanger. Let us start at issue #1 "There is no pilot policy manual". Response "We will build a pilot policy manual", and a policy manual was produced and is still in use today as a guideline on dealing with pilots. Issue #2 "Reduction in days off and pay". Response "We will hopefully be able to start restoring those items in August 97” DC-9 went from 8 days off per month to 12 days off every 28 day bid period, pay for the top DC-9 Capt went from $81/hr on a 55 hr guarantee or $4455 per month to $170/hr with a 45 hr guarantee or $7650 per month, thats a 72% increase. Anyonme else out there think a 72% increase is no change in pay? However you say nothing has changed since 1997, nope nothing at all, you are so in tune, is there something else you might like to address? We still have not discussed itmes 3 throught 24, if you want over the next couple days I will be glad to address every one of them. If you were at that meeting I have you narrowed down to about 4 people, you can come by and see me and discuss this or we can hang it out here in a public form. Ball is in your court.
Here comes the fuzzy math again. First the top payscale was only 165/hour. That's for a 15 year guy which we never had a payscale for before. So if you had the extra 10 years of seniority you could have gotten that kind of payraise(Look at a 5 year guys pay and see what it did) Second the pay went to 40 hour guarantee not 45. Later (read last year) it went to 45 after layover pay, and per diem were cut. What about the falcon guys. How many extra days off did they get? Hmm. None.
Exactly what good are days off 8 , 10 or 12, if on the one day you really needed to be home (funeral, wedding etc..) the company decided it wasn't convenient for them. That's the really hard part to swallow when the company gets to decide what is important to you.
What comes down to is I've worked more this year, got paid less and disrepected more. Not a good combination.
Exactly what good are days off 8 , 10 or 12, if on the one day you really needed to be home (funeral, wedding etc..) the company decided it wasn't convenient for them. That's the really hard part to swallow when the company gets to decide what is important to you.
What comes down to is I've worked more this year, got paid less and disrepected more. Not a good combination.
iaflyer
Haulin the folks...
- Joined
- Nov 27, 2001
- Posts
- 436
Pilot Policy Manual
That's funny, I was told by my Chief Pilot to turn in my Pilot Policy manual, because it wasn't being used anymore.
Oh, it's being used as a "guideline" for dealing with the pilots? I guess guideline is correct, because nothing is being adhered to - it's simply a guide.
A contract would spell out in black and white what pilots and managment could expect from each other. A contract would be enforceable and require both managment and pilots to follow the rules that are negotiated. A contract would make USA Jet a better place to work, and attract good employees who might see USA Jet as a career place.
iaflyer
That's funny, I was told by my Chief Pilot to turn in my Pilot Policy manual, because it wasn't being used anymore.
Oh, it's being used as a "guideline" for dealing with the pilots? I guess guideline is correct, because nothing is being adhered to - it's simply a guide.
A contract would spell out in black and white what pilots and managment could expect from each other. A contract would be enforceable and require both managment and pilots to follow the rules that are negotiated. A contract would make USA Jet a better place to work, and attract good employees who might see USA Jet as a career place.
iaflyer
pilotyip
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- Posts
- 13,629
Back to the issue?
You said nothing had changed since 1997, that was the issue you posted that I challenge. Talk about mangement deflection, how about Spencer deflection ignoring that changes that did take place and USA JET resembles little of what it did in 1997. And we are not going to address issues that are of no concern to you, like the building of a professional Training Departmet, the introduction of a simulator into our training center, and the resultant increase in the margin of safety in our operation. Are you saying items #1 and #2 did not happen? Would you like to tackle 3 through 24 next? When the first phase of the pay change went into effect in June 2002. Everyone bitched like you are here, and everyone who was given a detailed explanation of the new pay saw themselves making more money. Both if they broke guarantee or did not. Yes, you lost 1.42 in taxable pre-deim and some goofy formula for extend layover. But your ability to make money in selling days off and flying over guarantee more than offset any looses, For the DA-20, since you ask, they had 7 days a month off in 1997 or 84 per year, they now have 8 days every 28 day bid period or 104 days per year. In 1997 a DA-20 F/O started at $34 per hr at a 55 hr month guarantee or $1870/mo, he now starts at $43/hr with a 65 hr guarantee or $2795/mo. Is that not a change, a 50% increase in DA-20 F/O base pay. Again your deflected fuzzy math present less than a truthful picture. I am at home and do not have the 1997 five year DC-9 Capts pay so I cannot address comparing 1997 5 yr. and 2003 5 yr., but I know he is making more money for flying less. Besides from what I see here you should be about a 9-10 Capt on DC-9, if you were a DC-9 Capt in 1997 you had been with the company 2-3 years at that time.
You said nothing had changed since 1997, that was the issue you posted that I challenge. Talk about mangement deflection, how about Spencer deflection ignoring that changes that did take place and USA JET resembles little of what it did in 1997. And we are not going to address issues that are of no concern to you, like the building of a professional Training Departmet, the introduction of a simulator into our training center, and the resultant increase in the margin of safety in our operation. Are you saying items #1 and #2 did not happen? Would you like to tackle 3 through 24 next? When the first phase of the pay change went into effect in June 2002. Everyone bitched like you are here, and everyone who was given a detailed explanation of the new pay saw themselves making more money. Both if they broke guarantee or did not. Yes, you lost 1.42 in taxable pre-deim and some goofy formula for extend layover. But your ability to make money in selling days off and flying over guarantee more than offset any looses, For the DA-20, since you ask, they had 7 days a month off in 1997 or 84 per year, they now have 8 days every 28 day bid period or 104 days per year. In 1997 a DA-20 F/O started at $34 per hr at a 55 hr month guarantee or $1870/mo, he now starts at $43/hr with a 65 hr guarantee or $2795/mo. Is that not a change, a 50% increase in DA-20 F/O base pay. Again your deflected fuzzy math present less than a truthful picture. I am at home and do not have the 1997 five year DC-9 Capts pay so I cannot address comparing 1997 5 yr. and 2003 5 yr., but I know he is making more money for flying less. Besides from what I see here you should be about a 9-10 Capt on DC-9, if you were a DC-9 Capt in 1997 you had been with the company 2-3 years at that time.
Last edited:
ExecJetCA
Well-known member
- Joined
- Oct 16, 2003
- Posts
- 68
Hey Pilot YIP aka "Minister of Dis-Information"
When people came to your airline the pilots signed on the dotted line and said we will do the best we can and we will give 110% and move freight safely and efficienlty, and the company will pay us accordingly. Well I have met many of your pilots, some are even 3rd and almost 4th year FO's still on same pay. These guys appearantly will upgrade and instead of getting 3rd or 4th year CA pay they will get 1st or 2nd year cCA pay....thats the best labor scam in the book. Let these guys vote in a union freeze their pay then when times get good drag out contract negotiations so that your company can profit like crazy while these folks are screwed. So you rasied the garuantee and now a guy makes 33K base a year with basically weekends off (28 days 8 days off...figuratively speaking). No garuantee your pilots are going to get those days off from what I am told. You took away bonuses from them, you took away exetended lay over pay from them, and what ever else. I talked to a DA20 crew the other day, and they were talking to your dispatch I assume, about being paid to load some 2500# in 50 lb boxes. The conversation went towards something like if you don't load the freight your will be written up or putting someone else on the phone. They said something about you policies said they would be paid to load. Yet these guys do their job and are up long days and nights, but when all is said and done they have held up their end of the bargain.
Hey USA Jet pilots, when Net Jets starts hiring PM me, I will hand walk your resumes in.....wait I am one of the guys that hires....
When people came to your airline the pilots signed on the dotted line and said we will do the best we can and we will give 110% and move freight safely and efficienlty, and the company will pay us accordingly. Well I have met many of your pilots, some are even 3rd and almost 4th year FO's still on same pay. These guys appearantly will upgrade and instead of getting 3rd or 4th year CA pay they will get 1st or 2nd year cCA pay....thats the best labor scam in the book. Let these guys vote in a union freeze their pay then when times get good drag out contract negotiations so that your company can profit like crazy while these folks are screwed. So you rasied the garuantee and now a guy makes 33K base a year with basically weekends off (28 days 8 days off...figuratively speaking). No garuantee your pilots are going to get those days off from what I am told. You took away bonuses from them, you took away exetended lay over pay from them, and what ever else. I talked to a DA20 crew the other day, and they were talking to your dispatch I assume, about being paid to load some 2500# in 50 lb boxes. The conversation went towards something like if you don't load the freight your will be written up or putting someone else on the phone. They said something about you policies said they would be paid to load. Yet these guys do their job and are up long days and nights, but when all is said and done they have held up their end of the bargain.
Hey USA Jet pilots, when Net Jets starts hiring PM me, I will hand walk your resumes in.....wait I am one of the guys that hires....
Is this 97? Or 2003?
BTW thank you Exec Jet guy, let us know when we can send you a resume!
Everyone comes back to this 1997 issue. I was not here in 1997, the only info I have on 97 was the "please don't vote union" letter that basically mirrors the one we got a couple months ago. I will not aruge that things did improve here from pre 1997...but this is 2003.
I arrived at USA Jet after 1997, signed on the dotted line, gave 110% of myself to this company. Worked without complaint for almost 5 years. Then when it came to holding up thier end of the deal...USA Jet would not. We give above and beyond every trip and they respond with only doing the bare minimum. I've held up my end of the deal more times than I can remember and I come home, after being on the road for days, to a different company than I left. Maybe not everytime, but it seems more in the past year than ever before.
I am not really all that concerned with 1997. The issues of 2003 however, are my concern. I will not debate the issues of 1997, which were some very valid issues. Some things did change as PiloyYip pointed out, but here we are back to square one. Why?
One reason, management does not follow through with verbal and written policies.
Let's not deflect the real issues of today!
BTW thank you Exec Jet guy, let us know when we can send you a resume!
Everyone comes back to this 1997 issue. I was not here in 1997, the only info I have on 97 was the "please don't vote union" letter that basically mirrors the one we got a couple months ago. I will not aruge that things did improve here from pre 1997...but this is 2003.
I arrived at USA Jet after 1997, signed on the dotted line, gave 110% of myself to this company. Worked without complaint for almost 5 years. Then when it came to holding up thier end of the deal...USA Jet would not. We give above and beyond every trip and they respond with only doing the bare minimum. I've held up my end of the deal more times than I can remember and I come home, after being on the road for days, to a different company than I left. Maybe not everytime, but it seems more in the past year than ever before.
I am not really all that concerned with 1997. The issues of 2003 however, are my concern. I will not debate the issues of 1997, which were some very valid issues. Some things did change as PiloyYip pointed out, but here we are back to square one. Why?
One reason, management does not follow through with verbal and written policies.
Let's not deflect the real issues of today!
Ameristar's schedule is the same for the Lears and the Falcons. It is based on a 10 and 4 schedule. So every 28 days you get 8 days off. There are some variences to the schedule like 9 and 5 rotations earlier in the year and some 11 and 3 rotaions around build out. There is some extended time around holidays for pilots depending on what schedule they are on (6 days off around Thanksgiving or up to 8 days off for Christmas.) Pilots also get a week vacation. You always get your days off. The downside to the schedule is you are gone most of your days on, not many round trips.
pilotyip
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
- 13,629
May be announcing layoffs
As seen in the Detroit News today, the organization faced with declining revenue and increased expenses is struggling to balance its budget. In order to control expenses travel and hiring have been curtailed. Outside experts have been concerned for some time that the staff was too big for the size of the organization. "We are spending far more money than we are taking in, it would take considerably less staff than we have presently in order to break even" so said UAW spokesman Jerry Fisher about the present situation the UAW is facing with years of declining membership. Overhead is overhead and business decisions have to be made. From a peak of 1.5M in 1979 membership has declined to 639,000 in 2003. Recent contracts entered into with the big three may lead to the trimming of another 50,000 UAW jobs, which will bring membership under the 600,000 mark. Their drive to bring in more dues with new members is lagging. This is a recipe for high pressure sales, from a used car salesman who needs to move cars off of his lot. Tell them all about the great things this car is going to do. And if it breaks down after you purcahse it, hey buyer beware. They are hurting for membership and resultant dues. And the USA Jet guys represent more dues.
As seen in the Detroit News today, the organization faced with declining revenue and increased expenses is struggling to balance its budget. In order to control expenses travel and hiring have been curtailed. Outside experts have been concerned for some time that the staff was too big for the size of the organization. "We are spending far more money than we are taking in, it would take considerably less staff than we have presently in order to break even" so said UAW spokesman Jerry Fisher about the present situation the UAW is facing with years of declining membership. Overhead is overhead and business decisions have to be made. From a peak of 1.5M in 1979 membership has declined to 639,000 in 2003. Recent contracts entered into with the big three may lead to the trimming of another 50,000 UAW jobs, which will bring membership under the 600,000 mark. Their drive to bring in more dues with new members is lagging. This is a recipe for high pressure sales, from a used car salesman who needs to move cars off of his lot. Tell them all about the great things this car is going to do. And if it breaks down after you purcahse it, hey buyer beware. They are hurting for membership and resultant dues. And the USA Jet guys represent more dues.
pilotyip
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
- 13,629
Senior DC-9 Captain
(This was forwarded to me and I am posting it here) It is not my writing.
"Please bear with me, writings speeches is not my strong suit, T.O. Senior DC-9 Captain at USA Jet
Lady and Gentlemen,
We are about to be the owners of a new baby and we won't be able to give it back. Its name might be the UAW/USAJ PILOTS UNION. And it is my belief that this baby will turn into an 800 pound gorilla.
For those of you pilots who don't know me, I've been employed at USA Jet Airlines Inc./Active Aero Charter since NOV. 1st 1988. I've seen the good times and the not so good times, but I can tell you this, I have never been asked to fly an unsafe flight or a broke airplane. I have also never missed or had a late paycheck, and that includes the time in which I was on disability for 14 months following heart surgery. Also during my employment, I always felt I was paid as well as anyone at YIP.
Since I have missed most of the meeting of the UAW and USAJ equally, due to work and other commitments, I have tried to search for as much FACTUAL information as possible. I had a long talk with the DO (I have always found him to be very honest, sometimes very painfully so). We discussed many issues and agreed on most of them. One important thing we agreed upon was the reality of being on-the-streets looking for an aviation job at 52 and 54 years old, and that might happen if we (USAJ) can't remain competitive with the other "discount" airlines at YIP. It won't matter to FORD and GM that USAJ has the best maintained airplanes, best paid and trained pilots, if we don't have the best prices.
It is no secret that owners and management at USAJ don't want the UAW. We have their attention right now and are in a good position to work out the issues and problems that we (the pilots) have without the interference of a union, it also doesn't cost us any UNION DUES.
If we VOTE "NO REPRESENTATION" at this time, we have given ourselves a chance to meet with USAJ to solve our own problems without the conflicts that the UAW will create, (did I mention that it won't cost us union dues). If I/WE are wrong, we can correct that faulty judgment in the next vote in 12 months. Now that is a WIN-WIN situation!
For those of you who have made-up your mind to vote FOR the union, I will enjoy flying with you as I always have, and hope you feel the same.
If you are still sitting on the fence, I urge you to get the FACTS. As I see it, only two Facts are important; 1) If the UAW is voted in, we will pay union dues until the company ceases to be in business whether we personally benefit from the UAW or not 2) If we are wrong about solving our own problems in the next 8-12 months, we can vote again next year.
I urge all of you to vote "NO REPRESENTATION." Lets not work in a hostile work environment. Lets give the owners of USAJ a chance to prove to us that we can work together to solve our own problems"
(This was forwarded to me and I am posting it here) It is not my writing.
"Please bear with me, writings speeches is not my strong suit, T.O. Senior DC-9 Captain at USA Jet
Lady and Gentlemen,
We are about to be the owners of a new baby and we won't be able to give it back. Its name might be the UAW/USAJ PILOTS UNION. And it is my belief that this baby will turn into an 800 pound gorilla.
For those of you pilots who don't know me, I've been employed at USA Jet Airlines Inc./Active Aero Charter since NOV. 1st 1988. I've seen the good times and the not so good times, but I can tell you this, I have never been asked to fly an unsafe flight or a broke airplane. I have also never missed or had a late paycheck, and that includes the time in which I was on disability for 14 months following heart surgery. Also during my employment, I always felt I was paid as well as anyone at YIP.
Since I have missed most of the meeting of the UAW and USAJ equally, due to work and other commitments, I have tried to search for as much FACTUAL information as possible. I had a long talk with the DO (I have always found him to be very honest, sometimes very painfully so). We discussed many issues and agreed on most of them. One important thing we agreed upon was the reality of being on-the-streets looking for an aviation job at 52 and 54 years old, and that might happen if we (USAJ) can't remain competitive with the other "discount" airlines at YIP. It won't matter to FORD and GM that USAJ has the best maintained airplanes, best paid and trained pilots, if we don't have the best prices.
It is no secret that owners and management at USAJ don't want the UAW. We have their attention right now and are in a good position to work out the issues and problems that we (the pilots) have without the interference of a union, it also doesn't cost us any UNION DUES.
If we VOTE "NO REPRESENTATION" at this time, we have given ourselves a chance to meet with USAJ to solve our own problems without the conflicts that the UAW will create, (did I mention that it won't cost us union dues). If I/WE are wrong, we can correct that faulty judgment in the next vote in 12 months. Now that is a WIN-WIN situation!
For those of you who have made-up your mind to vote FOR the union, I will enjoy flying with you as I always have, and hope you feel the same.
If you are still sitting on the fence, I urge you to get the FACTS. As I see it, only two Facts are important; 1) If the UAW is voted in, we will pay union dues until the company ceases to be in business whether we personally benefit from the UAW or not 2) If we are wrong about solving our own problems in the next 8-12 months, we can vote again next year.
I urge all of you to vote "NO REPRESENTATION." Lets not work in a hostile work environment. Lets give the owners of USAJ a chance to prove to us that we can work together to solve our own problems"
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