USAJet Unionized

[pilotyip]

Not of the past

Lets see in 1978 the unions represented 23% of the work force, now they represent about 9%. Not only has percentage gone down, but also absolute mebership, the UAW had been a failure at organizing to regain their membership levels. Just like pension, unionms are thing of the past in most books. THe only place in the labour market that has seen an increase in membership is Gov't employees. When you bargin with a gov't unit you do not pay with real money, you play with tax payers money, and if you need more money to pay for union benefits, you just raise taxes. Unlike a real company that has to compete in the real world. BTW USA Jet does have a 401 K, but not very good one.

 

[pilotyip]

Oh and BTW

Why is it that most of the guys who do not support the union were in a union at some time in the past?, and the guys who support the UAW mostly have never been in a union? Could be unions are not every thing they profess to be? Why is FT former ALPA MEC at EAL not supporting the UAW?

 

[cruxx@9]

Why is it?

Why is it the only time the company seems to address problems with us (or any other group) seems to be when a union is involved?

I wish things were good enough here that we didn't go this route.

Is this the game management wants to play? Vote out the union, things improve for a couple years, then things slip for a couple years, then we bring in another union, they get their sh*t together AGAIN. They cry we didn't know, we can fix things. They spend more money on more goons, then the cycle starts AGAIN.

Or, do we (the pilot force) fix things once and for all. Granted not everyone will be happy with the out come. There are about 80 pilots with about the same amount of different views on what should happen. But hopefully in the end, there will be some consistancy to the pilots lives here. And something we all can live with.

Some of the guys opposed to the union have worked at other union shops and seen that it didn't work there for some reason or another. Some of the other guys opposed to the union are the guys getting favoritism and special deals. Of course they don't want the union because it will make everyone equal. Some of the guys for the union have worked in union shops and saw the good side of union membership.

The issue here is NOT the merits of the union. The issue here is management's inconsistant conduct.

Management has done an excellent job of deflecting the real issues here and spinning it against the UAW. Most of the pilot force can see through that though.

 

[Spencer]

Well said Cruxx@9

It all comes down to creditbility. The UAW has done everything that they have said they would do. The company on the other hand hasn't kept a promise yet, including the ones they made in 1997 to solve these very same issues if the union got voted out.

Who would you beleive?

 

[cruxx@9]

Something to think about...

The thing management wants us to believe, something I would love to believe is that things will change if the union is voted out. Managements battle cry is "if it isn't working in a year, have another vote and bring the union in then."

Like I said, I would love to give them a chance as many I've talked to would. However, this is the gamble we have.

If the union is voted out this time, when will we be in this situation again?

They (management) has already said that they are not interested in any type of contract with the pilots (or any other group) that would hold them to anything that is promised or agreed upon. This includes a non union contract, something that would be in their favor. We don't have the money as a pilot group to hire an attorney to enforce the contract if it is in breach. All it would do is spell out what is expected of them and us. But in reality, it is not binding because of cost. IF they aren't even interested in that, how can we believe a handshake deal?

IF the pilot group votes out the union this time how long will it take to get the union back on property? Who is going to start the process again? Who is going to take on the headaches that a certain individual has taken this time? What union would want to represent us? Would the UAW spend more money in a year to try again?

Remember, we went to the UAW, not the other way around. The UAW didn't exactly jump on our band wagon right away. This organizing attempt costs money that we aren't even contributing yet. This wasn't an overnight event. This took months of planning before any of us even heard of the union representation.

So, it isn't as easy as just voting the union in 12 months from now if we have not seen change by then. We are looking at 12 to 18 months of management having total control over "at will" employees for that peroid of time.

Also remember the contract will not be overnight, it may take years to settle (hopefully not, but it could). By not starting things now and waiting a year or so, we are just pushing that date longer into the future.

Management is gambling on the fact that if the vote is turned down this time, they can change just enough to keep us somewhat satisfied. They are also gambling that if we are not satisfied, no one will start to organize for a few years. Long enough for most of us to be gone by then.

What are YOU gambling on?

 

[pilotyip]

Get Real

Again talk about misunderstanding, I doubt you were even here in 1997, being such a low time guy, if you had been here that long you would be in the 6500 hr range or more, so you are a new comer. This place is much different that it was in 1997, more pay, more days off, more control over a number aspects of your interface with the company. The company has keep many more promises than you are aware of, you are not the expert on what has gone on and not gone, your blanket statements generate as much misunderstanding as anything anyone else has done.

 

[cruxx@9]

This is about my logbook now?

Not that it matters, but if I wouldn't have lived in the sim for 2 years I'd probably have over 6500 hours....but then you'd say I'd need 7500, if I had that I'd need shuttle landings...that isn't the point I was trying to make. You are the spin doctor of this forum...I gotta give you that!

I was just pointing out a very valid topic to think about. That's all, some food for thought. I don't think I was being too confrontational, just voicing a concern that is on the mind of some of the pilots, as well as mine.

 

[iaflyer]

Improvements

It's possible that Cruxx@9 wasn't at USA Jet in 1997 - I wasn't at USA Jet then either. Only 23% of the current seniority list was here then anyway.

Just because a company's managment is only beating the employees twice a day rather than four times a day doesn't make it a good place to work.

The changes since November are only because of the union organizing effort. Pilots are USA Jet are comparing USA Jet to other places they have buddies working at - places where USA Jet pilots have a shot at getting a job today- Spirit, Air Tran, Jet Blue.

Yes, there have been changes for the better in the years I have been here. PilotYIP has tried hard to make changes, and some have been implemented. Some of the changes that were promised, such as the "cost-neutral pay raise" have not been followed through. (for those who don't understand what I mean by cost-neutral, the premise was that a pilot pay raise would reduce costs in other areas at the company, thus being cost-neutral).

Is the pay raise was truly cost-neutal, why was it cancelled?

I would prefer to have a contract guaranteeing my work rules and pay in writing. Some of what I have right now about my work rules and pay is in writing - but it's all written by the company, and can be changed by the company. Does "All days off cancelled" ring a bell?

iaflyer

 

[Spencer]

I was here in '97 and it is the same issues - Days off, pilots being mistreated and broken promises.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the guys at Ameristar (which gets bashed by Pilotyip all the time) get their days off and I've heard the falcon guys get 9 of them unlike our falcon guys.

Just food for thought.

 

[pilotyip]

count

Falcon drivers get 8 days per 28 day bid period, 13 bid periods per year ='s 104 days off per year, plus a personal day =105 days off per year or 8 and 3/4 days per month. I doubt the Ameristar guys are getting 9 as an avarage. I have heard they had or have some kind of rolling days off, like 10 days off in January. 9 days off in February, and 4 days off in June etc. but their average was about 8 days per month or 3/4 day less than a USA Jet DA-20 driver. Again Spencer get your facts correct, Oh! I forgot there was math involved and you are listening to fuzzy math stories so I can see where the misunderstanding comes from. Anyone care to correct me on Ameristar DA-20 days off.

 

[Spencer]

Glad you went after my facts about ameristar. I did preface that with "correct me if I'm wrong" but once again you totally avoided the issues at USA Jet. They are still there and have been since 1997. Deflection - managements only tool.

 

[pilotyip]

Where would you like to start?

I assume you are talking about meeting with Marty Goldman on Monday 7-7-97? Where issues were discussed over free pizza in the Packard Hanger. Let us start at issue #1 "There is no pilot policy manual". Response "We will build a pilot policy manual", and a policy manual was produced and is still in use today as a guideline on dealing with pilots. Issue #2 "Reduction in days off and pay". Response "We will hopefully be able to start restoring those items in August 97” DC-9 went from 8 days off per month to 12 days off every 28 day bid period, pay for the top DC-9 Capt went from $81/hr on a 55 hr guarantee or $4455 per month to $170/hr with a 45 hr guarantee or $7650 per month, thats a 72% increase. Anyonme else out there think a 72% increase is no change in pay? However you say nothing has changed since 1997, nope nothing at all, you are so in tune, is there something else you might like to address? We still have not discussed itmes 3 throught 24, if you want over the next couple days I will be glad to address every one of them. If you were at that meeting I have you narrowed down to about 4 people, you can come by and see me and discuss this or we can hang it out here in a public form. Ball is in your court.

 

[Spencer]

Here comes the fuzzy math again. First the top payscale was only 165/hour. That's for a 15 year guy which we never had a payscale for before. So if you had the extra 10 years of seniority you could have gotten that kind of payraise(Look at a 5 year guys pay and see what it did) Second the pay went to 40 hour guarantee not 45. Later (read last year) it went to 45 after layover pay, and per diem were cut. What about the falcon guys. How many extra days off did they get? Hmm. None.

Exactly what good are days off 8 , 10 or 12, if on the one day you really needed to be home (funeral, wedding etc..) the company decided it wasn't convenient for them. That's the really hard part to swallow when the company gets to decide what is important to you.

What comes down to is I've worked more this year, got paid less and disrepected more. Not a good combination.

 

[iaflyer]

Pilot Policy Manual

That's funny, I was told by my Chief Pilot to turn in my Pilot Policy manual, because it wasn't being used anymore.

Oh, it's being used as a "guideline" for dealing with the pilots? I guess guideline is correct, because nothing is being adhered to - it's simply a guide.

A contract would spell out in black and white what pilots and managment could expect from each other. A contract would be enforceable and require both managment and pilots to follow the rules that are negotiated. A contract would make USA Jet a better place to work, and attract good employees who might see USA Jet as a career place.

iaflyer

 

[pilotyip]

Back to the issue?

You said nothing had changed since 1997, that was the issue you posted that I challenge. Talk about mangement deflection, how about Spencer deflection ignoring that changes that did take place and USA JET resembles little of what it did in 1997. And we are not going to address issues that are of no concern to you, like the building of a professional Training Departmet, the introduction of a simulator into our training center, and the resultant increase in the margin of safety in our operation. Are you saying items #1 and #2 did not happen? Would you like to tackle 3 through 24 next? When the first phase of the pay change went into effect in June 2002. Everyone bitched like you are here, and everyone who was given a detailed explanation of the new pay saw themselves making more money. Both if they broke guarantee or did not. Yes, you lost 1.42 in taxable pre-deim and some goofy formula for extend layover. But your ability to make money in selling days off and flying over guarantee more than offset any looses, For the DA-20, since you ask, they had 7 days a month off in 1997 or 84 per year, they now have 8 days every 28 day bid period or 104 days per year. In 1997 a DA-20 F/O started at $34 per hr at a 55 hr month guarantee or $1870/mo, he now starts at $43/hr with a 65 hr guarantee or $2795/mo. Is that not a change, a 50% increase in DA-20 F/O base pay. Again your deflected fuzzy math present less than a truthful picture. I am at home and do not have the 1997 five year DC-9 Capts pay so I cannot address comparing 1997 5 yr. and 2003 5 yr., but I know he is making more money for flying less. Besides from what I see here you should be about a 9-10 Capt on DC-9, if you were a DC-9 Capt in 1997 you had been with the company 2-3 years at that time.

 

[ExecJetCA]

Hey Pilot YIP aka "Minister of Dis-Information"

When people came to your airline the pilots signed on the dotted line and said we will do the best we can and we will give 110% and move freight safely and efficienlty, and the company will pay us accordingly. Well I have met many of your pilots, some are even 3rd and almost 4th year FO's still on same pay. These guys appearantly will upgrade and instead of getting 3rd or 4th year CA pay they will get 1st or 2nd year cCA pay....thats the best labor scam in the book. Let these guys vote in a union freeze their pay then when times get good drag out contract negotiations so that your company can profit like crazy while these folks are screwed. So you rasied the garuantee and now a guy makes 33K base a year with basically weekends off (28 days 8 days off...figuratively speaking). No garuantee your pilots are going to get those days off from what I am told. You took away bonuses from them, you took away exetended lay over pay from them, and what ever else. I talked to a DA20 crew the other day, and they were talking to your dispatch I assume, about being paid to load some 2500# in 50 lb boxes. The conversation went towards something like if you don't load the freight your will be written up or putting someone else on the phone. They said something about you policies said they would be paid to load. Yet these guys do their job and are up long days and nights, but when all is said and done they have held up their end of the bargain.

Hey USA Jet pilots, when Net Jets starts hiring PM me, I will hand walk your resumes in.....wait I am one of the guys that hires....

 

[cruxx@9]

Is this 97? Or 2003?

BTW thank you Exec Jet guy, let us know when we can send you a resume!

Everyone comes back to this 1997 issue. I was not here in 1997, the only info I have on 97 was the "please don't vote union" letter that basically mirrors the one we got a couple months ago. I will not aruge that things did improve here from pre 1997...but this is 2003.

I arrived at USA Jet after 1997, signed on the dotted line, gave 110% of myself to this company. Worked without complaint for almost 5 years. Then when it came to holding up thier end of the deal...USA Jet would not. We give above and beyond every trip and they respond with only doing the bare minimum. I've held up my end of the deal more times than I can remember and I come home, after being on the road for days, to a different company than I left. Maybe not everytime, but it seems more in the past year than ever before.

I am not really all that concerned with 1997. The issues of 2003 however, are my concern. I will not debate the issues of 1997, which were some very valid issues. Some things did change as PiloyYip pointed out, but here we are back to square one. Why?

One reason, management does not follow through with verbal and written policies.

Let's not deflect the real issues of today!

 

[PilotAg]

Ameristar's schedule is the same for the Lears and the Falcons. It is based on a 10 and 4 schedule. So every 28 days you get 8 days off. There are some variences to the schedule like 9 and 5 rotations earlier in the year and some 11 and 3 rotaions around build out. There is some extended time around holidays for pilots depending on what schedule they are on (6 days off around Thanksgiving or up to 8 days off for Christmas.) Pilots also get a week vacation. You always get your days off. The downside to the schedule is you are gone most of your days on, not many round trips.

 

[pilotyip]

May be announcing layoffs

As seen in the Detroit News today, the organization faced with declining revenue and increased expenses is struggling to balance its budget. In order to control expenses travel and hiring have been curtailed. Outside experts have been concerned for some time that the staff was too big for the size of the organization. "We are spending far more money than we are taking in, it would take considerably less staff than we have presently in order to break even" so said UAW spokesman Jerry Fisher about the present situation the UAW is facing with years of declining membership. Overhead is overhead and business decisions have to be made. From a peak of 1.5M in 1979 membership has declined to 639,000 in 2003. Recent contracts entered into with the big three may lead to the trimming of another 50,000 UAW jobs, which will bring membership under the 600,000 mark. Their drive to bring in more dues with new members is lagging. This is a recipe for high pressure sales, from a used car salesman who needs to move cars off of his lot. Tell them all about the great things this car is going to do. And if it breaks down after you purcahse it, hey buyer beware. They are hurting for membership and resultant dues. And the USA Jet guys represent more dues.

 

[pilotyip]

Senior DC-9 Captain

(This was forwarded to me and I am posting it here) It is not my writing.


"Please bear with me, writings speeches is not my strong suit, T.O. Senior DC-9 Captain at USA Jet


Lady and Gentlemen,
We are about to be the owners of a new baby and we won't be able to give it back. Its name might be the UAW/USAJ PILOTS UNION. And it is my belief that this baby will turn into an 800 pound gorilla.

For those of you pilots who don't know me, I've been employed at USA Jet Airlines Inc./Active Aero Charter since NOV. 1st 1988. I've seen the good times and the not so good times, but I can tell you this, I have never been asked to fly an unsafe flight or a broke airplane. I have also never missed or had a late paycheck, and that includes the time in which I was on disability for 14 months following heart surgery. Also during my employment, I always felt I was paid as well as anyone at YIP.

Since I have missed most of the meeting of the UAW and USAJ equally, due to work and other commitments, I have tried to search for as much FACTUAL information as possible. I had a long talk with the DO (I have always found him to be very honest, sometimes very painfully so). We discussed many issues and agreed on most of them. One important thing we agreed upon was the reality of being on-the-streets looking for an aviation job at 52 and 54 years old, and that might happen if we (USAJ) can't remain competitive with the other "discount" airlines at YIP. It won't matter to FORD and GM that USAJ has the best maintained airplanes, best paid and trained pilots, if we don't have the best prices.

It is no secret that owners and management at USAJ don't want the UAW. We have their attention right now and are in a good position to work out the issues and problems that we (the pilots) have without the interference of a union, it also doesn't cost us any UNION DUES.

If we VOTE "NO REPRESENTATION" at this time, we have given ourselves a chance to meet with USAJ to solve our own problems without the conflicts that the UAW will create, (did I mention that it won't cost us union dues). If I/WE are wrong, we can correct that faulty judgment in the next vote in 12 months. Now that is a WIN-WIN situation!

For those of you who have made-up your mind to vote FOR the union, I will enjoy flying with you as I always have, and hope you feel the same.

If you are still sitting on the fence, I urge you to get the FACTS. As I see it, only two Facts are important; 1) If the UAW is voted in, we will pay union dues until the company ceases to be in business whether we personally benefit from the UAW or not 2) If we are wrong about solving our own problems in the next 8-12 months, we can vote again next year.

I urge all of you to vote "NO REPRESENTATION." Lets not work in a hostile work environment. Lets give the owners of USAJ a chance to prove to us that we can work together to solve our own problems"