UsAirways E190 Upgrades

[get2flyin]

Maybe if your high on crack

I feel the same way about CEL pilots being placed above active mainline pilots.

 

[FR8mastr]

You mean the 90 pilots who were not working for USAirways, but took jobs at MidLantic? What they flew didn't matter, but where they were working did.

If you were unable to bid any mainline position then you weren't mainline. How hard is that to grasp.

Your red herring has been made into sushi.

Anyone still question what I said did not happen?

 

[Superbird]

Anyone still question what I said did not happen?

You still haven't shown us, other than your red herring rant;

"Just to be clear I DO NOT mean placed at the bottom, I mean removed. Why you ask? The official West reason was that these pilots flew Turbo prop aircraft at their previous jobs and therefore were not qualified to fly jets. I am not kidding!!!"

Rather than spreading misinformation on this webboard, maybe you should read the award in its entirety. Or have someone with a good grasp of the English language and at least a highschool level of reading comphrension explain the facts of the case to you.

 

[FR8mastr]

You still haven't shown us, other than your red herring rant;

"Just to be clear I DO NOT mean placed at the bottom, I mean removed. Why you ask? The official West reason was that these pilots flew Turbo prop aircraft at their previous jobs and therefore were not qualified to fly jets. I am not kidding!!!"

Rather than spreading misinformation on this webboard, maybe you should read the award in its entirety. Or have someone with a good grasp of the English language and at least a highschool level of reading comphrension explain the facts of the case to you.

I never said the award, Nic did not buy the west line. I said the west's argument. I am really sick and tired of all the BS you try and spread, all you do is try to discredit and obfuscate the truth.

Again, for the people with trying to hide behind BS.... Go read it for yourselves!!!!!!!!! Of course I know that the "pilot advocates" like superbird here know exactly what I am speaking of and they do not want anyone actually reading what the high and mighty, angelic West pilots did. So instead they put up post like the one I am quoting to change the subject, and blur the topic.

Well guess what Superbird, you can't change what happened, heck maybe you didn't even know about it at the time, but the fact are the facts.

 

[FR8mastr]

I had to re type this section of page 20 of the Nicolau award as I have no idea how to cut and paste a PDF on here. I am still looking for the original West position that was submitted to Nicolau.

Nicolau Award page 20...

" It is the position of the America West pilots that these pilots do
not belong on the list; that they have no right to be there because
there were no flow-up provisions to which they can lay claim; that they
were only put on the list in an effort to "beef up" the US Airways list,
and that they should therefore be removed. The US Airways pilots
disagree. Though they concede that there was some question of their
status early on, they assert that the submitted evidence makes it
clear that the CEL pilots belong on the list where they are."

 

[Superbird]

I had to re type this section of page 20 of the Nicolau award as I have no idea how to cut and paste a PDF on here. I am still looking for the original West position that was submitted to Nicolau.

Nicolau Award page 20...

" It is the position of the America West pilots that these pilots do
not belong on the list; that they have no right to be there because
there were no flow-up provisions to which they can lay claim; that they
were only put on the list in an effort to "beef up" the US Airways list,
and that they should therefore be removed. The US Airways pilots
disagree. Though they concede that there was some question of their
status early on, they assert that the submitted evidence makes it
clear that the CEL pilots belong on the list where they are."

Changing your tune I see. Your earlier misinformation campaign stated that:

"Just to be clear I DO NOT mean placed at the bottom, I mean removed. Why you ask? The official West reason was that these pilots flew Turbo prop aircraft at their previous jobs and therefore were not qualified to fly jets. I am not kidding!!! "

 

[get2flyin]

I had to re type this section of page 20 of the Nicolau award as I have no idea how to cut and paste a PDF on here. I am still looking for the original West position that was submitted to Nicolau.

Nicolau Award page 20...

" It is the position of the America West pilots that these pilots do
not belong on the list; that they have no right to be there because
there were no flow-up provisions to which they can lay claim; that they
were only put on the list in an effort to "beef up" the US Airways list,
and that they should therefore be removed. The US Airways pilots
disagree. Though they concede that there was some question of their
status early on, they assert that the submitted evidence makes it
clear that the CEL pilots belong on the list where they are."

So you're disputing the idea that they were not active employees on the USAir mainline seniority list? Clearly, they were not and CLEARLY, that was the contention of the AWA committee. No mention was made of firing them (they could have continued to fly at their regional carrier) nor did I read any mention of some "turbo prop experience" issue. That was a complete fabrication by you in an attempt to paint all AWA pilots in an unfavorable light. If AA attaches every Eagle pilot to their proposed integration list, I'm sure like most USAPA faithful, you will suddenly argue the opposite side of the issue.

You argument has no merit and you are awarded no credit.

 

[FR8mastr]

Changing your tune I see. Your earlier misinformation campaign stated that:

"Just to be clear I DO NOT mean placed at the bottom, I mean removed. Why you ask? The official West reason was that these pilots flew Turbo prop aircraft at their previous jobs and therefore were not qualified to fly jets. I am not kidding!!! "

Are you freakin mental? Let's see if I type slowly maybe you will get it.

THIS WAS FROM NIC'S DECISION OK????

MY STATEMENT WAS FROM THE WEST POSITION GIVEN TO NICOLAU BY THE WEST PILOT??? DO YOU SEE THE DIFFERENCE OR DO YOU NEED MORE HELP?

 

[FR8mastr]

So you're disputing the idea that they were not active employees on the USAir mainline seniority list? Clearly, they were not and CLEARLY, that was the contention of the AWA committee. No mention was made of firing them (they could have continued to fly at their regional carrier) nor did I read any mention of some "turbo prop experience" issue. That was a complete fabrication by you in an attempt to paint all AWA pilots in an unfavorable light. If AA attaches every Eagle pilot to their proposed integration list, I'm sure like most USAPA faithful, you will suddenly argue the opposite side of the issue.

You argument has no merit and you are awarded no credit.

I give up, nobody is as mentally challenged as you guys make out to be, so therefore you are just making like the Internet trolls we all know you to be. So go ahead back to your BS and have a great day.
By the way when I do dig up the west's argument, I will post it here so that everyone will know what a bunch of liars you are.

 

[get2flyin]

I give up, nobody is as mentally challenged as you guys make out to be, so therefore you are just making like the Internet trolls we all know you to be. So go ahead back to your BS and have a great day.
By the way when I do dig up the west's argument, I will post it here so that everyone will know what a bunch of liars you are.

As my father use to say, "In God we trust, all others bring data". Post the actual thing or stop making accusations.

PS Thank you, I WILL have a great day.

 

[FR8mastr]

"it is the position of the America West pilots that these pilots do not belong on the list"

I said the West wanted pilots removed from the list, I have proven that with your sacred Nic award.

The only thing still in dispute in your mind is the reason, its been 8 years but I will find the West's position and quote it here.
However you could make a liar out of me by just posting it yourself, I know as a loyal West pilot advocate you have it, so go ahead put me in my place.

But alas I know you won't as it would out you guys for the individuals you really are.
Meanwhile I will keep looking, its not on the USAPA site, so I am looking for different legal library's trying to find it.

 

[j-3]

The 90 pilots went up to mainline via a flow-through agreement just like the Eagle pilots on the current American seniority list. They could not "flow-down" because PDT didn't honor the flow-down agreement. That's when they cancel the flow-through and those pilots stayed at mainline.

 

[LearLove]

The 90 pilots went up to mainline via a flow-through agreement just like the Eagle pilots on the current American seniority list. They could not "flow-down" because PDT didn't honor the flow-down agreement. That's when they cancel the flow-through and those pilots stayed at mainline.

FWIW I think it was a few more than 90. About 125 if I remember correctly. Off the top of my head about 65 are still on the mainline list today. BL (330 fo on the aug bid) being the most senior and EV the most junior (76/76 FO).

Some left for other airlines and stayed, some stayed at Republic and a few retired.

 

[WSurf]

The 90 pilots went up to mainline via a flow-through agreement just like the Eagle pilots on the current American seniority list. They could not "flow-down" because PDT didn't honor the flow-down agreement. That's when they cancel the flow-through and those pilots stayed at mainline.

The Flow-Through was cancelled when US Airways sold the 170's to Republic to exit Chapter 11. Hence ending Mid-Atlantic. PDT didn't honor a flow-down because one wasn't agreed upon.

It sucked for everyone!

 

[FR8mastr]

The Flow-Through was cancelled when US Airways sold the 170's to Republic to exit Chapter 11. Hence ending Mid-Atlantic. PDT didn't honor a flow-down because one wasn't agreed upon.

It sucked for everyone!

I agree but there is more...
There never was a flow through, they were working on one but it never took place. No signed documents by any parties involved

Airways was desperate to find bodies to fill the right seats of the 170's, coming in a 3 per month. the pay was so bad that the furloughed pilots all passed. So Airways came up with a plan, Lear posted the bid choices.

these pilots were then hired by Airways when they showed up for class. Negotiations on a flow continued for a few months, but the 2nd bankruptcy came and all fell apart.
I was on the ALG MEC at that time, and I can tell with all certainty there was no flow ever agreed to, or took place.
It was a major problem for me at the time as pilots were asking me all about the "flow" and I had to keep telling them that the whole thing was a crap shoot it you went to MDA, as management (not any of the unions) had made a path to Airways, but no provisions what so ever to come back in the event of furlough or failed training etc.

At the same time there was plenty of looking the other way as the ML MEC did not enforce the recall provisions for their furloughed pilots once MDA remained US Air and not a WO.

 

[Carl S.]

One question, did the E170's say EXPRESS on the side?

 

[LearLove]

One question, did the E170's say EXPRESS on the side?

OK then we will just paint express on the PHX based aircraft and you guys can work for 50% less.

 

[get2flyin]

OK then we will just paint express on the PHX based aircraft and you guys can work for 50% less.

Good effort trying to think outside the box but since we East and West collectively comprise USAir mainline and there are no East/West specific aircraft I doubt that will work. Keep trying though!

 

[LearLove]

Good effort trying to think outside the box but since we East and West collectively comprise USAir mainline and there are no East/West specific aircraft I doubt that will work. Keep trying though!

You missed my point entirely. So I'll dumb it down for you.

Lets go ahead and paint express on the whole fleet, A330 to E190, then we can all work for 50% less. Get the point now?

 

[MCDU]

One question, did the E170's say EXPRESS on the side?

Yo numb nuts. Delta had Express written on their 737 back in 2000. I guess that means they were not mainline pilots flying Delta Express.

M

 

[St. Nic]

Yo numb nuts. Delta had Express written on their 737 back in 2000. I guess that means they were not mainline pilots flying Delta Express.

M

Great point!

 

[RJLoser]

What flying does the republic 190 do out of CLT?

 

[get2flyin]

Yo numb nuts. Delta had Express written on their 737 back in 2000. I guess that means they were not mainline pilots flying Delta Express.

M

Great point!

You two make a great couple. Do I hear wedding bells?

You missed my point entirely. So I'll dumb it down for you.

Let's go ahead and paint express on the whole fleet, A330 to E190, then we can all work for 50% less. Get the point now?

I understood you just fine so let me counter with a simplified response that perhaps YOU can comprehend. It doesn't really matter what livery the aircraft is painted in. What matters is who do the pilots WORK for. If the aircraft looks like all the others parked at all the adjacent gates but there is a "Operated by _____" sticker or stamp visible on the aircraft, the pilots are NOT flying for the mainline carrier. Scream, shout, and pound your chest all you want but flying for MDA was NOT flying for USAir. When East/West merger process began, it was "mainline" plus "mainline", period. The beef the MDA guys seem to have is nobody went to bat for them regarding a flow through that had evidently been promised. I agree, that sucks and they (you?) got screwed.

1) The America West pilots did not screw you. Perhaps the Doug or Scott did, but the West didn't.
2) It wasn't the West pilots responsibility to go to bat for you, particularly in light of the fact the East was trying advance a list with MDA pilots on it solely as a means to advance their own seniority interests.

I'm surprised the MDA pilot's frustrations aren't aimed at the East pilots who seem to have subsequently failed to demonstrate even a shred of support or unity after MDA was sold off. Maybe I miss read the entire situation...except the part about MDA being the "Embrier Division" of USAir. That's pure folly.

With that said, I'm a big advocate of in-house regional carriers with a guaranteed flow through because I think it's a win-win for everyone involved.

 

[ALGFLYR]

Scream, shout, and pound your chest all you want but flying for MDA was NOT flying for USAir. When East/West merger process began, it was "mainline" plus "mainline", period. The beef the MDA guys seem to have is nobody went to bat for them regarding a flow through that had evidently been promised. I agree, that sucks and they (you?) got screwed.


I'm surprised the MDA pilot's frustrations aren't aimed at the East pilots who seem to have subsequently failed to demonstrate even a shred of support or unity after MDA was sold off. Maybe I miss read the entire situation...except the part about MDA being the "Embrier Division" of USAir. That's pure folly.

With that said, I'm a big advocate of in-house regional carriers with a guaranteed flow through because I think it's a win-win for everyone involved.

I don't think you understand what happened there... MDA was ALWAYS US Airways. All the MDA pilots were on the US Airways seniority list AND they still are.The pilots that came there under a "flow-thru" were placed on the mainline list and they still hold their positions on that list. They range from 190 Captains to FO's on the 330 all they way down to the 190 (by choice of course). I think the flow-thru guys at MDA are happy to be where they are. They knew what they were getting into when they left their wholly owned carrier. The rub is that even though they were officially on the US Airways mainline seniority list, the West tried to have them removed. With no flowback provisions, that would have essentially meant getting fired with no job. The US Airways MEC certainly made sure they were protected...

 

[LearLove]

What flying does the republic 190 do out of CLT?

I think they use the 190s they have left on casino charters. At least that is the flying they do with them out of ACY.

 

[FR8mastr]

One question, did the E170's say EXPRESS on the side?

Why yes it did.

It also said operated by US Airways.

 

[WSurf]

Why yes it did.

It also said operated by US Airways.

???? Didn't it say operated by Mid-Atlantic? Mid-Atlantic became the 4th wholly own and put under the SSO along with PDT,ALG, PSA.

 

[dollacrackho]

So how did the mda guys wind up as psa captains again?

 

[TWA Dude]

The rub is that even though they were officially on the US Airways mainline seniority list, the West tried to have them removed.

Let's just make something clear here: we're talking about seniority integration arguments before an arbitrator. Nobody tried to get anybody terminated. In light of the upcoming SLI arbitration with the AA pilots everybody needs to get some thicker skin because a lot of infuriating things are going to be stated there.

It's 100% the East's fault we'll be entering this process a divided group so get ready to choke on that too.

 

[St. Nic]

Let's just make something clear here: we're talking about seniority integration arguments before an arbitrator. Nobody tried to get anybody terminated. In light of the upcoming SLI arbitration with the AA pilots everybody needs to get some thicker skin because a lot of infuriating things are going to be stated there.

It's 100% the East's fault we'll be entering this process a divided group so get ready to choke on that too.

Horse hockey!!!! You seem to forget it was the west that stormed out of negotiations at Why River. You seem to gloss over the fact the west has sued there own union! You need to figure who is to really blame here