USAirways Bid results

[cactusboy53]

HAHA, Ask PIT how that worked out for them.......just sayin'....

Well there is that. Biggest bunch of commuters ever. I don't think you can compare PIT vs. PHX, and I really don't see a PHX base closure as we stand.

What burns my cookies is Kirby (I think) made a statement that there was MORE money to be made on the east coast. So that's just great. More money is usually a good thing. Why not get more airplanes and hire more pilots for that flying? Further, it looks like there is a resurgence in LAS (Spirit, Alegiant, SWA have picked up our flying that we used to do). Why not go and do a little growth there in earnest? I'm still waiting for Doug to call me and ask my opinion.

A merge with AA? Possible PHX closure. You should look at the dynamics when you start looking at all the bases and the varied flying. It interesting to say the least.

 

[SiouxHockeyFan]

Let's all hope the new contract doesn't just give us the current east or west rules, we should strive for better.

 

[SiouxHockeyFan]

thanks for the explanation, how 'bout the idea of trashing both reserve systems, and coming up with something livable?

STOP! You can not use logic on flightinfo, especially when posting about east and west. I thought everything had to be negative. Nice to see some real folks are still out there. OH yeah, I'm with you on getting a better system for us all.

 

[Bringupthebird]

thanks for the explanation, how 'bout the idea of trashing both reserve systems, and coming up with something livable?

Sorry, that would take a legitimate union and we're fresh out.

 

[Crzipilot]

Union is fine. People running it or involved is the problem, not all of them just the chosen ones. I've always said there are two types that gravitate towards Union work. Those which truely feel they can make a positive change or help towards the working conditions for their fellow pilots. Then there are those which gravitate towards the work for the myriad of other reasons. They want the power, the feeling of being a manager or "CEO" of something, They really don't like to fly, especially during those icky summer and winter months where those white things hang in the sky, Same as previous reason but they still dig the uniform, and can wear it around the neighborhood to impress the desperate housewives, has figured out that flying the line is a GRIND, and well I can get a full month pay check by sitting in the union, etc etc etc...You know the reasons.

Either way, about 90% of the people are in it for the second reason and 10% for the first, AND those 10% are usually sitting in the middle of some sub committee doing scheduling work, etc etc, some little nuiance which they are good at. Those guys usually get burnt out in short order or really know how to juggle their union time.
The first group?!?!?! Ever wonder how someone can be so involved, yet when spoken to, is so clueless? Yup, that's a classic sign, woerthless.

I guess my point is, yup it's screwed up, yup it's going to be screwed up. Bottom line we don't have a contract to vote on, and I highly doubt anyone one the west could get one out of the company either. Unless it was similar to Kirby or LESS with the NIC, company be glad to offer that.... No scope, no increase or an actual decrease to whatever is in your contract, Get rid of a number of sticky things from our contract. Etc Etc

Rant over...

 

[Bad-Andy]

Union is fine. People running it or involved is the problem, not all of them just the chosen ones. I've always said there are two types that gravitate towards Union work. Those which truely feel they can make a positive change or help towards the working conditions for their fellow pilots. Then there are those which gravitate towards the work for the myriad of other reasons. They want the power, the feeling of being a manager or "CEO" of something, They really don't like to fly, especially during those icky summer and winter months where those white things hang in the sky, Same as previous reason but they still dig the uniform, and can wear it around the neighborhood to impress the desperate housewives, has figured out that flying the line is a GRIND, and well I can get a full month pay check by sitting in the union, etc etc etc...You know the reasons.

Either way, about 90% of the people are in it for the second reason and 10% for the first, AND those 10% are usually sitting in the middle of some sub committee doing scheduling work, etc etc, some little nuiance which they are good at. Those guys usually get burnt out in short order or really know how to juggle their union time.
The first group?!?!?! Ever wonder how someone can be so involved, yet when spoken to, is so clueless? Yup, that's a classic sign, woerthless.

I guess my point is, yup it's screwed up, yup it's going to be screwed up. Bottom line we don't have a contract to vote on, and I highly doubt anyone one the west could get one out of the company either. Unless it was similar to Kirby or LESS with the NIC, company be glad to offer that.... No scope, no increase or an actual decrease to whatever is in your contract, Get rid of a number of sticky things from our contract. Etc Etc

Rant over...

Well said, except I would disagree with your percentages. I would reverse the numbers. I'd say 90% of the people are the first group -- they just honestly want to make a difference. It's the other 10% that keep screwing everything up.

The proof of that? 10% of our USAPA volunteers are on some sort of trip-loss scheme, while 90% either volunteer on their days off or are on minimal trip-loss pay. Want to clean it up? Simple -- cut the trip-loss to match what one would get on the line (same pay, no stipends, let the officers share a "crashpad" like other commuters, etc). Make it the same whether they fly the line or work in the office. Then you will see who is in it for the right reasons.

As for the "CEO-Wannabes" we just need to vote them out and start over with some guys that are capable of doing both the job and getting along with all of the pilots. You can't tell me that out of 5000 pilots, we don't have a few willing to step up and serve...

As for NIV-vs-DOH, Crazi, I have a serious question for you (no flaming) -- when will you accept the NIC? If Judge Silver issues a DJ ruling that says the company is liable for anything other than the NIC (arbitrator's ruling), can we stop fighting it then and start to work on rebuilding unity? At what point (for you personally) do we move on?

I ask because the answer to that question could very well determine the direction the union takes this Spring. We need reasonable people to step up and run things. We need the West guys support if we hope to achieve anything. We need the East guys to stop their political infighting. And yes, we even need the hard-line USAPA supporters as well. We CAN'T get a contract with 55%-65% support. Team Tempe won't offer it, regardless of which 2/3 is in control. It has to be an all-or-nothing effort. That is what everyone (on all three sides) needs to remember. This election isn't about replacing one set of dictators with another. It has to be about us all getting on the same page. If not, the next group is doomed to fail just like the current group.

Anyways, I guess that was the long way to ask, "If NIC is imposed on us by the court, will you (and guys in your seniority block) fight for a contract with the same strength and unity that you're fighting now, based on the hope of DOH?"

Andy

 

[Crzipilot]

I think what you will find is this. When the courts finally offer decisions everyone is waiting for. When the appeals are heard, and justified and finalized, then you will see everyone get on board whatever contract. Can it be done before then, sure.

As most anyone has said, each block of seniority is looking at the situation as to how it effects them. And that is how they will vote. So even now, if the NC could come back with an offer from the company, that would mitigate the pain some would feel on the NIC, it would have a chance to pass, and things would go back to psuedo normal. Bottom line is the money.

Guys see the nic as an extra 5-7 years at low (even if raised to AWA +3-5% on AB or 73) as opposed to the current situation where on LOA 93, but in 1 year, the gates start to open. Whatever the ratio of capt's and f/o's retire, it doesn't matter as they are all senior to those in some seniority blocks. Those guys gone from either seat will raise the bottom up quicker to line holders, able to put in a solid 85 hours without working hard, and for others it will result in the left seat in 3-5 years, which equates to a 40k raise right there. as opposed to what a 6k a year raise stuck at f/o. It would take 5-6 years to make up the difference of f/o capt, whereas sit for 3 years, and be ahead earnings wise in 1 yr, and every year thereafter.

Now if the nic is implemented, and all these capt vacancies start happening, and there's a guy that commutes anyways to PHX, and he's looking at being able to leap frog over to a 76 or mid line holding capt. resulting in a 35-50K jump in income to him, Your going to tell me he's not going to take that? hence delaying the bottom half of the east list who knows how long. The reported 2 yr delay is nonsense. Closer to 5-7

Cliff notes: Money....

 

[Bringupthebird]

Now if the nic is implemented, and all these capt vacancies start happening, and there's a guy that commutes anyways to PHX, and he's looking at being able to leap frog over to a 76 or mid line holding capt. resulting in a 35-50K jump in income to him, Your going to tell me he's not going to take that? hence delaying the bottom half of the east list who knows how long. The reported 2 yr delay is nonsense. Closer to 5-7

Just so you can give us the size of the boogeyman, how many F/O's (exactly) commute from the east coast (within 100 miles of an east domicile) to PHX.

Don't fear monger on wild speculation.

 

[Bringupthebird]

I ask because the answer to that question could very well determine the direction the union takes this Spring. We need reasonable people to step up and run things. We need the West guys support if we hope to achieve anything.

Please tell me you don't think that the only leadership can come from the east. USAPA needs to give serious consideration to a West President and see what can be gained from a group with many years experience dealing with Tempe.

 

[B-atch]

Just so you can give us the size of the boogeyman, how many F/O's (exactly) commute from the east coast (within 100 miles of an east domicile) to PHX.

Don't fear monger on wild speculation.

Irrelevant!!
$$ this is what makes a pilot commute.

 

[Crzipilot]

Ya, it really doesn't matter who lives on the east coast. I've watched guys commute from Alaska to Miami. From WA to PA, why!??! 'cause they hold better seniority or the money is better for them to do that commute. Hell I have watched guys commute just for different airplanes, without any income increase. Stupidity......so not fear mongering, just the way pilots work.


As to the West president, well most have only been exposed to west guys via the forums, and well most of them seem to be spawn of Leonadis, whereas, with the east guys you can actually tell we are one hell of a fractured group. So most likely I wouldn't see east pilots getting behind a west pilot when all they know west pilots to be, are in lock step with the hard liners out west.... Just sayin...

 

[Bringupthebird]

Irrelevant!!
$$ this is what makes a pilot commute.

No, once you toss out the "PHX will close and All Your Base Are Belong To Us" non-starter, you need to decide if sticking to the dead-end DOH is worth it for the handful of pilots who will commute. Remember, the guys who commute now do so because they want to say they live in such and such place (although they really live on the jumpseat and crashpad and only occasionally visit home) and the next contract will suck immensely due to USAPA undermining their own relevance. Many will stay in PHX and wait for attrition and expansion rather than schlepping off to the Hellhole of Brotherly Love or Hooterville.

Stay focused with me. USAPA cannot indefinitely delay a contract (even a lousy one) for the sole purpose of advantaging the east. So elect the person who will revive the closed out sections, develop sufficient rapport with the company to get as much as they can plus a signing bonus, and put out a contract.

USAPA put us in the position where our expectations must be managed in order to get out of their self-dug rut. Thanks.

1. Read the Nic Award in it's entirety
2. Examine what USAPA has been able to provide in 3 years
3. Elect proven leaders and judge them on their merits, not what forum posters say.
4. Read the T/A and evaluate the net benefits and the costs of progressing
5. Hold your nose and vote
6. Begin working in unity towards an improved 2nd contract

 

[reepicheep]

I'll tell you why you're not gonna get an invasion from the west in a nutshell.....if you looked out the window right now could you really tell the difference in any USAirways domicile? No. Except one. Guess which.

 

[Guppiedriver]

I think what you will find is this. When the courts finally offer decisions everyone is waiting for. When the appeals are heard, and justified and finalized, then you will see everyone get on board whatever contract. Can it be done before then, sure.

As most anyone has said, each block of seniority is looking at the situation as to how it effects them. And that is how they will vote. So even now, if the NC could come back with an offer from the company, that would mitigate the pain some would feel on the NIC, it would have a chance to pass, and things would go back to psuedo normal. Bottom line is the money.

Guys see the nic as an extra 5-7 years at low (even if raised to AWA +3-5% on AB or 73) as opposed to the current situation where on LOA 93, but in 1 year, the gates start to open. Whatever the ratio of capt's and f/o's retire, it doesn't matter as they are all senior to those in some seniority blocks. Those guys gone from either seat will raise the bottom up quicker to line holders, able to put in a solid 85 hours without working hard, and for others it will result in the left seat in 3-5 years, which equates to a 40k raise right there. as opposed to what a 6k a year raise stuck at f/o. It would take 5-6 years to make up the difference of f/o capt, whereas sit for 3 years, and be ahead earnings wise in 1 yr, and every year thereafter.

Now if the nic is implemented, and all these capt vacancies start happening, and there's a guy that commutes anyways to PHX, and he's looking at being able to leap frog over to a 76 or mid line holding capt. resulting in a 35-50K jump in income to him, Your going to tell me he's not going to take that? hence delaying the bottom half of the east list who knows how long. The reported 2 yr delay is nonsense. Closer to 5-7

Cliff notes: Money....

What has this delay bought the east pilots that are already lineholding captains? Please don't say advancement to widebody....that's not enough.

Yep, I bet a few dozen or more westies will probably bid captain and FO slots in PHL and CLT. I'm not sure how many would want the widebodies. Don't you think and equal number, or more, easties would bid PHX? I mean, you do have a bigger pilot group and a bunch of your ex-PSA guys still live out west.

It's unfortunate that your fear of the unknown prevents you from making a rational decision.

 

[captainjack]

I'm all for the pay raise and contract improvements, but we can't accept the provision that makes pilots call scheduling after a trip to ask if they can go home. Plus with the current west contract the west folks wouldn't be gaining anything. We need improvements across east and west.

There is a 4 shirt rule. Can't be out for more than 4 days and can't fly into your days off, so the tagging is almost always limited to a turn on the end of your trip, if ever.

It's not the best provision but generally, the AWA reserve system combined with PBS and the ability to take your days off as you want them make it one of the best and livable reserve systems out there.

Tagging works both ways. If you get tagged to do a SAN turn that allows the one day available guy to stay home and have the day off.

The JNC tweaked the AWA reserve system to allow open-time pick up on days off. It also guaranteed 13 days off.

USAPA tossed all of this. Freakin geniuses.