USAir East West NIC Award Resolution? Very soon!

[cactusboy53]

The West should have followed ALPA's advice to fix the abomination when they had the chance, and given the results they have forced and the road they have now traveled, and the millions of dollars they have squandered... the West would make the right decision if they could go back and fix it.

:nuts:

The ONLY reason ALPA requested that AWA come in and talk was because of the incessant complaining from AAA about how "unfair the Nic is". ALPA wanted your dues money, period. They wanted AWA to bend over and appease your angry FO club.

We are on this little road of travel because AAA walked away from a nearly complete joint contract (27 sections! USAPA? 6? 8? In over 4 years). We are on the little road because AAA chose to balk at the final and binding arbitration process that they agreed to. We are on the little road because Steven Bradford & the "down by the river van gang" chose to shop for lawyers that would finally tell them what they wanted to hear, and thus birth the mighty USAPA. We are on the little road because USAPA has chosen to persecute and attempt to squash the AWA pilot group at every possible turn (RICO, Address-gate, Distance Learning overpayment, etc.).

Wye ask Wye? It's the East's lie. Judge Silver just handed down a decision that says she WILL NOT release the company from litigation. USAPA is free to negotiate....BUT there are MILES of STRINGS attached to the base order. There may be a "wide range of reasonableness", but the lane you must travel is VERY NARROW.

Go ahead. See if you can get the company to participate. See if you can get the NMB to NOW see you as fairly representing ALL US Airways pilots.

Dollars well spent my friend. Hey, can we help USAPA with dues money that will be used against me...OH WAIT! We already are.

You know, people with integrity would fire up an assessment fund that you kids could pay for your DOH chase (vs. all union dues). Don't forget: There is NO WEST, there is NO EAST. USAPA represents 5000+ "professional airline pilots".........

 

[Ocity]

Hi Becket!! This crappy company led by an ex-convict (I can legally say that it is not slander) has not made even close to a "billion dollars" in over a decade. Becket please read the mandatory finance reports that a publicly held company must report to the SEC and you will see this. How would this crap hole pay your entitlements that you think that you are entitelded to? "Billion Dollars" what an idiot.

Had the Pilots accepted the POS Kirby proposal....as offered, un-modified, the Company would have paid out well over ONE BILLION additional W2 Wages to the pilots over the last 7 years. Fact. I know how hard those are for you to deal with.

97% was going East to bring Parity. You blew it.

 

[Turtle21]

You won't see another judge until there is a ratification of a new contract, and then you can spend all the money you want. P.S. Don't forget to remain calm at crew news in PHX.

Or until it can be proven that USAPA is intentionally delaying a vote on that contract ..

Sure, go back to the judge and prove USAPA is delaying a vote on a new contract...That assumes DUI returns to the table for genuine negotiations... If there is a merger, I don't think you will see any problem with full on negotiations taking place.. In fact negotiations will be rapid and pressure to move forward will be great... The whole seniority dispute will be rapidly overcome by events. If there is no merger, DUI will be arrested again, the company will flounder, and the dispute will continue to the end of time.

 

[Turtle21]

:nuts:

The ONLY reason ALPA requested that AWA come in and talk was because of the incessant complaining from AAA about how "unfair the Nic is". ALPA wanted your dues money, period. They wanted AWA to bend over and appease your angry FO club.

We are on this little road of travel because AAA walked away from a nearly complete joint contract (27 sections! USAPA? 6? 8? In over 4 years). We are on the little road because AAA chose to balk at the final and binding arbitration process that they agreed to. We are on the little road because Steven Bradford & the "down by the river van gang" chose to shop for lawyers that would finally tell them what they wanted to hear, and thus birth the mighty USAPA. We are on the little road because USAPA has chosen to persecute and attempt to squash the AWA pilot group at every possible turn (RICO, Address-gate, Distance Learning overpayment, etc.).

Wye ask Wye? It's the East's lie. Judge Silver just handed down a decision that says she WILL NOT release the company from litigation. USAPA is free to negotiate....BUT there are MILES of STRINGS attached to the base order. There may be a "wide range of reasonableness", but the lane you must travel is VERY NARROW.

Go ahead. See if you can get the company to participate. See if you can get the NMB to NOW see you as fairly representing ALL US Airways pilots.

Dollars well spent my friend. Hey, can we help USAPA with dues money that will be used against me...OH WAIT! We already are.

You know, people with integrity would fire up an assessment fund that you kids could pay for your DOH chase (vs. all union dues). Don't forget: There is NO WEST, there is NO EAST. USAPA represents 5000+ "professional airline pilots".........

Ok, enough of dwelling about the past. How are we going to move forward? USAPA negotiates as they see fit within a wide range of reasonableness, a ratification occurs, anyone then gets to sue while the rest of everyone else moves on. Cheers. Look to the future!

 

[doh]

Yes Turtle, the easties move on to paying their assessment for damages and the west moves on to collecting said damages! Because that is what will happen. $124/hr!?! I make that much as a fractional 5th year FO.

 

[cactusboy53]

Ok, enough of dwelling about the past. How are we going to move forward? USAPA negotiates as they see fit within a wide range of reasonableness, a ratification occurs, anyone then gets to sue while the rest of everyone else moves on. Cheers. Look to the future!

With an unaltered Nicolau seniority list. It's the only one that is presently on Doug's desk. If ANY list is proffered that loses one percentage point for ANY former AWA pilot, DONE.

LCC is NOT presently dismissed from being a named litigant. How do you suppose Mr. Parker is going to respond to DOH (because that is how USAPA has painted itself into a corner)? Further, USAPA constitution & bylaws (and the UOM) all state they will "maintain uniform principles of seniority based on date of hire and the perpetuation thereof, with reasonable conditions and restrictions to preserve each pilot's un-merged career expectations." USAPA is painted into a corner.

Here's some questions: What were the un-merged career expectations of the furloughed US Air pilots in May 2005? What were the un-merged career expectations of the now furloughed AWA pilots (40-50, as we continue to hire NEW PILOTS east) in May 2005?

Sorry Turtle, but you can not have a second bite of the apple. We (west class pilots) stand FIRMLY on legal, ethical, and moral HIGH GROUND. History is what makes our argument. USAPA has historically sought to recover the east pilot's career from the the former AWA (because that's the only place left to get it). USAPA has historically sought to persecute and damage the AWA pilots in the hopes of crushing us. We are well funded and and stand together. We did NOT create this mess, but we will assist in finishing it up.

So, how about that USAPA Assessment for funding the DOH chase yourselves? We could call it Assessment Saving Seniority Harbor of Legal Expenditures.....

 

[General Lee]

Here is a recap for the Easties

Judge Says US Airways and Pilots Can Negotiate, but Risk Seniority Lawsuit
By Ted Reed, Contributor
10/15/2012

A federal court ruling in Phoenix appears to pave the way for US Airways to negotiate a new contract with its pilots, but acknowledges that the contract is likely to result in litigation.

The ruling by Judge Roslyn Silver doesn’t seem to satisfy the concerns the airline raised when it filed a request for a declaratory judgment in July 2010, asking for a ruling on whether it should include a controversial 2007 seniority ruling in a new contract. The seniority ruling has divided pilots following a 2005 merger between US Airways and America West.

In 2008, pilots left the Air Line Pilots Association after 57 years and created a new union, the U.S. Airline Pilots Association, dedicated to a date-of-hiring seniority list favored by pilots from “the east” and opposed by those from “the west.” West pilots’ litigation has argued that USAPA does not fairly represent them.

“This is a hard case” was the first sentence in Silver’s nine page ruling, issued Oct. 11. Later she wrote: “In the end, the court cannot provide as much guidance as it had hoped it could.” She reaffirmed a 2010 appeals court decision, part of the long series of legal battling over the ruling that the case is not “ripe” because it is based on future actions that may or may not occur.

“USAPA is free to pursue any seniority position it wishes during the collective bargaining negotiations,” Silver wrote. “But with that freedom comes risk” of being sued.

Looking ahead, “If USAPA wishes to abandon the Nicolau Award and accept the consequences of this course of action, it is free to do so,” she wrote. “By discarding the result of a valid arbitration and negotiating for a different seniority regime, USAPA is running the risk that it will be sued by the disadvantaged pilots when the new collective bargaining agreement is finalized. An impartial arbitrator’s decision regarding an appropriate method of seniority integration is powerful evidence of a fair result. Discarding the Nicolau award places USAPA on dangerous ground.”

US Airways spokeswoman Michelle Mohr said the airline “has only one interest in the case: ensuring that we negotiate a collective bargaining agreement with our pilots union that is consistent with our legal obligations.”

Both pilot groups found something to like. In an email message, Leonidas, a group that represents west pilots, said that “the Nicolau doesn’t disappear. Rather it will be the yardstick against which any non-Nicolau will be measured.”

USAPA believes it now has the freedom to negotiate a contract, and that as long as west pilots are fairly represented, the contract can survive a court challenge, even if the Nicolau award is not included. Said union spokesman James Ray, “We look forward to pursuing a contract agreement that is fair to all parties.”

Further complicating the case, it is possible that any contract agreement would follow a merger with American Airlines and would be negotiated with the Allied Pilots Association, which represents American pilots. An APA spokesman has said it would be up to the courts to resolve the US Airways pilot seniority dispute, but the 2008 McCaskill Bond statute enables a contract to be signed before resolution of a seniority dispute – a course that so far has not so far been pursued to US Airways.








Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Bringupthebird]

Sure, go back to the judge and prove USAPA is delaying a vote on a new contract...

We live in a digital world with plenty of loose e-mails floating about. Like the one Stephen Bradford received warning him that his motive behind forming USAPA would be discovered.

 

[flygirlqt]

The judges order is an obvious warning for the potential liability towards USAPA discarding the Nicolau award. To ignore, disregard or minimize the language in her order would be perilous from a legal standpoint for USAPA as a defendant.

 

[ackattacker]

The judges order is an obvious warning for the potential liability towards USAPA discarding the Nicolau award. To ignore, disregard or minimize the language in her order would be perilous from a legal standpoint for USAPA as a defendant.

I don't know, it seems to me that by the time such a lawsuit went through the system the fait would be pretty much accompli. Probably USAPA wouldn't even exist anymore. Former TWA pilots won their DFR lawsuit against ALPA but it didn't bring back that decade of their lives so it seems like a fairly hollow victory.

 

[flygirlqt]

I don't know, it seems to me that by the time such a lawsuit went through the system the fait would be pretty much accompli. Probably USAPA wouldn't even exist anymore. Former TWA pilots won their DFR lawsuit against ALPA but it didn't bring back that decade of their lives so it seems like a fairly hollow victory.

That is a valid point but the potential exists and it could become a very real liability in the future. The judges order as written would give a lot of grounds and credibility for an injunction before a dismantling of the list before that scenario would occur though in my opinion.

I could not ethically advise USAPA to proceed down the path of abrogating the Nicolau after this ruling. On the surface the order did not bring closure to certain issues but it is very perilous none the less to ignore.

 

[Turtle21]

Wide range of reasonableness.. Easy to stay in a wide rage of reasonableness... Every other labor group was DOH, but did not include generous conditions and restrictions.

A future lawsuit is a given. The future existence of USAPA is doubtful. 100 years from now an original copy of the Nic will have the same value as confederate money.

 

[johnnyb]

Had the Pilots accepted the POS Kirby proposal....as offered, un-modified, the Company would have paid out well over ONE BILLION additional W2 Wages to the pilots over the last 7 years. Fact. I know how hard those are for you to deal with.

97% was going East to bring Parity. You blew it.

Fu get lost. Deal with that.

 

[General Lee]

Wide range of reasonableness.. Easy to stay in a wide rage of reasonableness... Every other labor group was DOH, but did not include generous conditions and restrictions.

A future lawsuit is a given. The future existence of USAPA is doubtful. 100 years from now an original copy of the Nic will have the same value as confederate money.

And the Easties will still be making "Confederate" wages thanks to their stubbornness. Oh well.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[TWA Dude]

Easy to stay in a wide rage of reasonableness... .

First of all, Easties don't know the meaning of that word. Second, Judge Silver acknowledged in writing that USAPA was created primarily to circumvent the Nicolau award so any future court would know exactly what's going on. Lastly, all this is moot until we hear from Dug if he's even going to entertain a non-Nic list at the negotiating table. At this point your wet-dream list is still dead in the water.

Speaking of my second point above, remember how for many years Easties lied about how USAPA wasn't created just to evade the Nic? Funny how we don't hear that boast anymore.