USAir East West NIC Award Resolution? Very soon!

[Superbird]

Interesting that you bring up "majority" after election day - in that regard i would always choose to be smarter and in the minority rather than dumb but say i am in the majority = but for now I guess we in the East are both smarter and in the majority

Metrojet

You're "smarter" alright, if you insist. Dougweiser appreciates how "smart" you have been on your concessionary contract. Stay "smart".

 

[cactusboy53]

The lawyers for USAir are either the most incompetent boobs or the most despicable, conniving, manipulators...

....Sending crap like the excerpt below to the court that told them... the COMPANY MUST NEGOTIATE WITH USAPA... incompetent boobs or conniving manipulators.. either way it is disgusting!!

---The COMPANY has NOT negotiated with USAPA for any amount of time, much less four years. They refuse to come to the table and pretend that USAPA and the West Pilots are the rightful place to negotiate... HOGWASH is for PIGS.)

Yea, you got it brother. USAPA's legal team has them on the run! USAPA's legal wins demonstrate that they are the champions! There is no way the LCC could possibly have better legal advice (or Leonidas).

It's all ALPA's fault. It's all Nicolau's fault. It's all the Westies fault. It's all the company's fault. It's all the NMB's fault. It's always someone else's fault.

Clues: It's your fault & the fault of your previous company(s).

 

[cactusboy53]

Hi Becket!!!! Where was the "over a billion dollars in lost income" going to come from? I only have a math degree and your ex-con CEO has it. Are you really saying chug-a-lug dui parker was going to give it me????? Look at the public records and after tell me how he hides things from the public.

I don't know about a billion. I do know that the the JNC had 27 closed sections of a 30-some section contract. The company testified that they were looking at giving an additional 7-8% on top of the Kirby Proposal (essentially the AWA contract).

Here's what has been lost since 2007ish:

• An increase of 10-11% in hourly wage for Westies. That's about a $33 an hour increase for an East NB captain. A NB captain would have been making $158 or so an hour (as early as 2007).
• 31 days of vacation a year (maximum)
• Full DH, Mechanical & Cancellation.
• With the contract improvements (vacation time, etc.), we would have had to HIRE - Not furlough.
• With one contract, one group: the opportunity to GROW the airline properly vs. placing ALL the growth in CLT & PHL because you be cheap, Jack.
• You would be contributing less for medical than you are right now.

The sad thing is that Dug has played USAPA like a Charlie Daniels fiddle (and continues to do so). Through omission, commission or just outright deceit he has managed to take all of this away. LOA93 & delay is all that USAPA has bought, and it has cost us all dearly.

• USAPA has spent OVER 10 MILLION dollars in legal expenses (Addington, RICO I & RICO II, Address-Gate, Work Action, Injunction, etc.)
• Leonidas is up around 3 Mil.
• WE HAVE ZERO DOLLARS IN A MERGER FUND. How do you think that is going to work out for us?????

The PHX pilot group didn't start this, but we will most assuredly finish it. It is just a matter of money, time and patience. We have all three.

SYIC-A (see you in court-again).

 

[cactusboy53]

We can keep arguing about the viability of the merged companies and we can now see that past projections were incorrect. USAir has been hiring since last year and plans over 300 new pilots next year even though the former AWA pilots already fly 24 % of the USAir routes. AWA has shrunk, has pilots laid off, won't be hiring to replace retirees at least through all of next year, and doesn't even have enough profitable routes to even employ all the pilots they currently have, as Parker has repeatedly told everyone.

All that doesn't matter.

Folks can keep bitching that they don't agree with the majority or they can propose an alternative that is acceptable to the majority.

Democracy is what it is.

So DEMOCRACY is another way of saying it's OK to renege? How about arguing keeping your word, doing what you promised, don't cheat, don't lie, etc.?? Those all seem to be pretty easy tenets to live by.

The Nicolau Seniority list IS the COMPROMISE, it IS the MIDDLE GROUND. We stand FIRMLY on legal, moral and ethical HIGH GROUND.

We did not start this, but we will finish it.

SYIC-A

 

[charlie2]

I don't know about a billion. I do know that the the JNC had 27 closed sections of a 30-some section contract. The company testified that they were looking at giving an additional 7-8% on top of the Kirby Proposal (essentially the AWA contract).

Here's what has been lost since 2007ish:

• An increase of 10-11% in hourly wage for Westies. That's about a $33 an hour increase for an East NB captain. A NB captain would have been making $158 or so an hour (as early as 2007).
• 31 days of vacation a year (maximum)
• Full DH, Mechanical & Cancellation.
• With the contract improvements (vacation time, etc.), we would have had to HIRE - Not furlough.
• With one contract, one group: the opportunity to GROW the airline properly vs. placing ALL the growth in CLT & PHL because you be cheap, Jack.
• You would be contributing less for medical than you are right now.

The sad thing is that Dug has played USAPA like a Charlie Daniels fiddle (and continues to do so). Through omission, commission or just outright deceit he has managed to take all of this away. LOA93 & delay is all that USAPA has bought, and it has cost us all dearly.

• USAPA has spent OVER 10 MILLION dollars in legal expenses (Addington, RICO I & RICO II, Address-Gate, Work Action, Injunction, etc.)
• Leonidas is up around 3 Mil.
• WE HAVE ZERO DOLLARS IN A MERGER FUND. How do you think that is going to work out for us?????

The PHX pilot group didn't start this, but we will most assuredly finish it. It is just a matter of money, time and patience. We have all three.

SYIC-A (see you in court-again).

Hey Dave! I was specific in my question. How was Dug gonna pay for Kirby? We didn't make enough money to pay for that lousy offer! If we voted in Kirby or a slight improvemnet the company would have had to go to court again and get another 1013c.

 

[cactusboy53]

Hey Dave! I was specific in my question. How was Dug gonna pay for Kirby? We didn't make enough money to pay for that lousy offer! If we voted in Kirby or a slight improvement the company would have had to go to court again and get another 1013c.

The same way he pays for everything else: By finding money, finance & marketing. I am a simple man. I don't care where he gets the money, I simply want to be paid. The Kirby Proposal is STILL on the table (according to a recent Crew News), and testimony at the trial said they were willing to go 7-8% higher. My job is to get the people from point A to point B. I'll let Dug figure out where he's gonna find the money.

Wages and 401K ALONE, I'm short $80,000 (since 2007). Never to be recovered. Mike Gillies is the "biggest loser" at over $172,000.00 (estimates based on the above w/ the AWA contract rules). Also never to be recovered.

Every day that goes by is money lost, additional time off lost, contract improvements lost. period.

 

[charlie2]

The same way he pays for everything else: By finding money, finance & marketing. I am a simple man. I don't care where he gets the money, I simply want to be paid. The Kirby Proposal is STILL on the table (according to a recent Crew News), and testimony at the trial said they were willing to go 7-8% higher. My job is to get the people from point A to point B. I'll let Dug figure out where he's gonna find the money.

Wages and 401K ALONE, I'm short $80,000 (since 2007). Never to be recovered. Mike Gillies is the "biggest loser" at over $172,000.00 (estimates based on the above w/ the AWA contract rules). Also never to be recovered.

Every day that goes by is money lost, additional time off lost, contract improvements lost. period.

There was no money to pay for Kirby. This year may be an exception though. Kirby is a really good example of a bad example. Please don't vote to let Dug have no min fleet and no min utilization rates...please Dave please?

 

[cactusboy53]

There was no money to pay for Kirby. This year may be an exception though. Kirby is a really good example of a bad example. Please don't vote to let Dug have no min fleet and no min utilization rates...please Dave please?

It's not my job to find money, but can get money to shoot out of many orifices. What's fleet min have to do with it? West is at fleet min, and east is getting any and all new / replacement aircraft.

I want a new contract and I want to be paid like our peers. That's also my job. We can take the KP, and adjust fleet mins & utilization. Why on earth would we want to keep our current contracts while the industry is making WAY MORE?

CB

 

[charlie2]

It's not my job to find money, but can get money to shoot out of many orifices. What's fleet min have to do with it? West is at fleet min, and east is getting any and all new / replacement aircraft.

I want a new contract and I want to be paid like our peers. That's also my job. We can take the KP, and adjust fleet mins & utilization. Why on earth would we want to keep our current contracts while the industry is making WAY MORE?

CB

Dave you should know that Dug is saying he WILL shrink the airline if we merge. He violated us a few years ago and we won in arbitration and I can forward that info if you can't get on our web site. Use some logic for a second...if management would violate a contract section about keeping a min utilization rate (JOBS!!!) why wouldn't they rape us if it wasn't in the contract to begin with?

 

[cactusboy53]

Dave you should know that Dug is saying he WILL shrink the airline if we merge. He violated us a few years ago and we won in arbitration and I can forward that info if you can't get on our web site. Use some logic for a second...if management would violate a contract section about keeping a min utilization rate (JOBS!!!) why wouldn't they rape us if it wasn't in the contract to begin with?

Dug said no such thing. In fact he stated the opposite on many occasions. The presentation that was delivered shows very little overlap, and supports the business model he has proposed. Why on earth would ANY business person merge two airlines (like LCC & AA) to make the worlds largest airline, just to shrink it to 3rd or 4th? Considering our loads, that would be the true definition of STUPID.

With the retirements, new rest rules, possible changes in experience level for new FO's, etc., we are looking at JOBS! LCC is hiring 300-350 a year NOW - with or without a merger. Can you imagine how we might be able to GROW if Dug didn't have to worry about running two airlines? Heck, we might even be able to GROW and not need to merge.

Industry "experts" say pretty much the same thing, including the possibility of growing PHX (because there is little space to grow out of LAX). Also growth to South America and perhaps the Pacific Rim.

Look at the past 10 years. LCC management can't utter a sentence without using the terms "merger" or "consolidation". Logic tells me that he is hell bent on doing this if at all possible - with or without our assistance.

Without our assistance, we would become a single carrier quickly and we would have new CBA. That CBA would dictate what we would get in a new contract.

With our assistance we get a voice, equal and timely pay, pay parity, etc. IMHO the benefits outweigh the detriments.

Pretending that our current protections would remain just because we want them to is foolish and short sighted. I'll admit there is a leap of faith to be made, but logically it looks like the best path.

 

[FR8mastr]

Kirby, if we were ever stupid enough to ask for it, was to be paid for with all the reductions in QOL. and the loss in other benefits.
They were hoping for the shortsighted to jump at a pay rate and not look into anything else. The majority of West pilots would vote for anything that gave them the NIC, so it almost worked.
I cant believe that even with hind site some are still advocating that piece of garbage. Once you give up work rules and benefits that took decades to get, you will never get them back.
I'll give you $5 cash for that $20 credit card... Sounds like a great deal to me.

 

[cactusboy53]

Kirby, if we were ever stupid enough to ask for it, was to be paid for with all the reductions in QOL. and the loss in other benefits.
They were hoping for the shortsighted to jump at a pay rate and not look into anything else. The majority of West pilots would vote for anything that gave them the NIC, so it almost worked.
I cant believe that even with hind site some are still advocating that piece of garbage. Once you give up work rules and benefits that took decades to get, you will never get them back.
I'll give you $5 cash for that $20 credit card... Sounds like a great deal to me.

And there you have it Ladies & Gentlemen: EMOTION vs. LOGIC. The KP was / is essentially the AWA contract with an increase of 3-11% (above the AWA wage).


Here are your "losses" in quality of life:

• 31 DAYS OF VACATION (MAXIMUM)
• FULL PAY MECHANICAL
• FULL PAY DEADHEAD
• FULL PAY CANCELLATION
• DUTY & RIG IMPROVEMENTS (5:15 A DAY FOR EACH 24 HOUR PERIOD SITTING)
• PAY INCREASE
• 401K INCREASE
• CONTINUED PROFIT SHARING (If you brain surgeons would STOP burning two engines and the APU as much as you do, it would be an amazing improvement). Even with the limited participation this year will be the BEST ever!
• YOU WOULD BE PAYING LESS FOR MEDICAL COST INCREASES THAN YOU ARE RIGHT NOW (mine went up only a couple of bucks).

I'll bet a beer that you haven't actually even read the KP details, or for that matter know where to find it. Further, IF you took the time to read it...you STILL wouldn't get it.

Hang in there buddy! You've got us right where we want you! Voting in the Nic has NOTHING to do with it. The Nicolau seniority list is the ONLY LEGAL LIST that all parties agreed to. Changing your name & persecuting the west pilots have only bought you delay. Money that you will never see, because it's all in LCC's pocket. Dug says THANKS!

 

[weasel_lips]

Waste of time.... Like posting here is going to win something, anything. Change someone's mind.... Waste of time..... Move on.....

 

[Flybywire44]

Yea, you got it brother. USAPA's legal team has them on the run! USAPA's legal wins demonstrate that they are the champions! There is no way the LCC could possibly have better legal advice (or Leonidas).

It's all ALPA's fault. It's all Nicolau's fault. It's all the Westies fault. It's all the company's fault. It's all the NMB's fault. It's always someone else's fault.

Clues: It's your fault & the fault of your previous company(s).

Both East and West are equally responsible for this status quo.

East values maintaining seniority and attrition over QOL.

 

[vetrider]

Both East and West are equally responsible for this status quo.

QUOTE]

And the woman with two black eyes just didn't know when to shut up. Sure.

 

[Ocity]

Both East and West are equally responsible for this status quo.

East values maintaining seniority and attrition over QOL.

Right......

The West played by the rules and trusted the other two parties would do the same. THAT'S what the West is guilty of. Won't EVER happen again.

 

[Bringupthebird]

Both East and West are equally responsible for this status quo.

No, ALPA is largely responsible for this status quo by not completing their responsibility and merging the 2 MECs and signing a joint contract in lieu of membership ratification. They thought they could keep the dues from US if they leaned on the west to negotiate against themselves after the award came out.

You can see how that went.

 

[Flybywire44]

Binding or not, the Nic award was unfair and, as Just Silver recently made clear, Nic is not binding.

Both pilot groups were disingenuous and had an all or nothing mentality—this is where both parties went wrong.

West ALPA started the process of drafting an MOU to the Nic award when they saw that USAPA was being created. WALPA should have immediately drafted that MOU when Nic was awarded to avoid today's status quo.

Blow back is especially brutal in this case to all parties.

 

[becket]

Binding or not, the Nic award was unfair and, as Just Silver recently made clear, Nic is not binding.

Both pilot groups were disingenuous and had an all or nothing mentality—this is where both parties went wrong.

West ALPA started the process of drafting an MOU to the Nic award when they saw that USAPA was being created. WALPA should have immediately drafted that MOU when Nic was awarded to avoid today's status quo.

Blow back is especially brutal in this case to all parties.

You have absolutely NO IDEA what you're talking about. Silver was very careful to say that the Nic wasn't binding ONLY if USAPA could identify a legitimate union purpose to do so. A purpose that would survive a trial. Guess what? They don't have one. Never did....and a jury already shoved their claimed "legitimate" purpose straight up their asses. Who are you to arbitrarily decide the "fairness" of the Nic award? You're a NOBODY. We're you there for the months of testimony? No. Are you an experienced Lawyer? No. Are you an arbitrator? No. Nothing.

Every Federal Judge has pinned the Nic on USAPA. USAPA plays stupid. They don't care if they go BK in court because USAPA knows damn well their days are numbered no matter what. They just want to get something ratified because they are under the very mistaken idea that will solidify DOH.

I could go on and on correcting your completely clueless ass but ill just leave you with the very good advice to simply STFU about things you have no understanding of.

 

[Bringupthebird]

West ALPA started the process of drafting an MOU to the Nic award when they saw that USAPA was being created.

They did no such thing. They did quite the opposite and refused to negotiate against themselves and buckle under to the demands of the east.

It was never about fairness, it was always about the east having sufficient votes to get their way, even if they didn't know what to do with it once they got it.