USA Jet for Sale

[Way2Broke]

AvBug, simply put it is the difference between a career and a job. But my post was a weak attempt at humor. If I were any good at humor people would pay to see my stand-up routine.

 

[pilotyip]

Ditch diggers in Phoenix...no shortage. Qualified roofers, generally in demand.

The question is does one really see himself kneeling in hot tar in 106 degree weather beating his hands to a bloody pulp with a 32 oz hammer, 12 hours a day for eight dollars an hour? Or picking scorpions out of his boots while spitting out sand?

There's somewhat of a disparity between sitting down in a padded seat in a cockpit, and actually doing work. For the most part, though you wouldn't believe it from the bleeting and whining that goes on in the pilot community, flying is NOT work. It's a paid job, but far from work.

Ditch digging is not a skilled trade that I know of, but plumbing, electrical, auto mechanic are

 

[canadflyau]

Ditch diggers in Phoenix...no shortage. Qualified roofers, generally in demand.

The question is does one really see himself kneeling in hot tar in 106 degree weather beating his hands to a bloody pulp with a 32 oz hammer, 12 hours a day for eight dollars an hour? Or picking scorpions out of his boots while spitting out sand?

There's somewhat of a disparity between sitting down in a padded seat in a cockpit, and actually doing work. For the most part, though you wouldn't believe it from the bleeting and whining that goes on in the pilot community, flying is NOT work.

At 0 knots and 1 g... yep easy to say from the cheap seats. (and the tar doesn't move much faster) Don't like the scorpion, yep pick it up and move... Don't like smoke in the cockpit well..

Dude come on, this airline just had a pilot lose his life and another seriously injured just "doing his job in his padded seat."

Manual labor only constitutes a "real job" to you. Lot of snap second judgements that could result in loss of safety, violation, and/or ultimately harm/death.. I'll go look around the water cooler for carnage, b/c that is where I would head when things got tough and I needed a break when I did manual labor...

Give me a break!

I had Falcons get hotter than that in Laredo TX while I sat in the unconditioned a/c for Lord knows how long sweating gallons at well over a stagnant 110+ degrees!

 

[avbug]

Dude

Did you just say "Dude?" What are you...14 years old?

What do you want to be when you grow up?

Manual labor only constitutes a "real job" to you. Lot of snap second judgements that could result in loss of safety, violation, and/or ultimately harm/death.. I'll go look around the water cooler for carnage, b/c that is where I would head when things got tough and I needed a break when I did manual labor...

Aircraft mechanics work. Coal miners work. Auto mechanics work. A seven eleven employee on her feet all day works. Roofers work. A soldier on a foot patrol works.

Pilots who wear a white shirt and tie and sit for hours on end with a little finger twizzling here and there on the occasional button and knob...don't work...and if they claim they do...they clearly don't understand the concept.

I've knocked around down low between the powerlines and the crops and ended the day so sore I couldn't climb from the cockpit. That's work. I've helped load a clients bags and then flown them in an air conditioned cockpit using an autopilot and FMS to a destination three hours away...that's not work. If you think it is...you're sadly mistaken.

Ditch digging is not a skilled trade that I know of, but plumbing, electrical, auto mechanic are

For a guy with a masters degree, you're dangling your prepositions again, Yip. Truth is that digging ditches and operating heavy equipment is a skilled trade. Moreover, on the working end of things...it's a trade in demand, and it's certainly not one without hazards (go look up OSHA information on trench collapses). I've met more than a few auto mechanics, however, whom I wouldn't suffer to call "skilled." Not to say that about the entire profession, of course (mainly just the one who last worked on my transmission...).

 

[TWA]

Ditch digging is not a skilled trade that I know of, but plumbing, electrical, auto mechanic are

With recent advances in GIS and GPS technologies, ditch digging has become a very skilled trade. The ditches must be dug in very precise locations. Due to the increase in underground gas lines, water mains, and communication lines, there is very little room for error.

 

[canadflyau]

Sorry if the expression "dude" seems to imply or warrant something about me that can allow you to make a personal attack.. Ok you win, Avbug 1 canadflyau 0
(FWIW, I wish I could go back and be 14 again)



Those who can't... can't.

I have worked jobs of varying degrees of dirty, for low pay, and long hours. I don't need to justify to you my qualifications to compare flying to lots of other manual labor jobs I have done. I personally haven't been as lucky or as fortunate as others and been able to skip manual labor... just the way it worked for me personally.

Frankly I don't think anything I can post or share will cause you to be anything but defensive. Your posting history I have read shows me that. I will state again, however, that giving your life for your job is not a consequence paid in many other fields/jobs/professions, hinged directly to your judgement, skills, decision making. I don't really know why I am sharing this with another so called aviator, but humor me, and don't think I am trying to be patronizing.

I have been paying my dues via 6 airlines and 3 furloughs/layoffs. Each has added a new skill set for its challenges both physical and mental. While I look forward to that easy leg while I can sit in the padded seat and not do any mental work, everything goes just as it should, it doesn't deviate from the dispatchers plan, I get to fly in on an uncharged arrival at the speed of my choosing when being cleared to land by my own maneuvering, to taxi in with an airport that has no runways to cross other aircraft to contend with, no wrong turns, just glide straight into the gate with all personnel exactly where they should be and all equipment clear just for me. Yep, pretty easy considering my current pov, not looking at the thousands of building blocks it took to get here. Sure, It can be an enjoyable easy snapshot of a job.

That is just not the truth 99.9% of the time.

I got out of a 1900 between Pueblo and Denver that I was beat up so bad I was sore the next day.. my eyes hurt from trying to focus on flying, it was nonstop. Actually not that uncommon flying around the rocks in all weather below 250 in turboprops in and out around cumulo-granite non-radar, yep very mentally tasking. Being so hot and sweaty in an airplane that I couldn't wear my sunglasses without the flow of any air (I always enjoyed a nice breeze at other jobs.)

I have landed with 2 declared emergencies for actual a/c emergencies where the aircrafts flying abilities had been impaired, and Lord knows how many medical emergencies in busy airspace trying to fly a plane to the limit to get it on the ground ASAP. (I am sure you have your own stories.)

I can go on and on before getting into flying my piss poor work rules, fighting fatigue, both acute and chronic. Trying to maintain a QOL and family life while only getting 6-7 days at home a month. Being paid squat.

I am sorry that you feel the need to belittle the profession I "work" in. Maybe we had totally different experiences, and I am not here to measure anatomy with you (trust me I will lose.)

I am trying to say the beatings, workloads, exhaustion, physical and mental tasking, plus the ultimate price someone might pay to have this "job" has exceeded my experience when all I was asked for was my body, getting dirty, kinda work.

I would go so far to say that if I could continue to do those other non-flying hardworking jobs I have done in the past, and hopefully achieve the pay, QOL, and retirement that I hope to gain by continuing along flying, I would do it in a heartbeat! But that is just me... and where I currently work guys are bailing out of the cockpit for good at an alarming rate.

I am in no way implying I have to work harder, but when you look at the whole package it is just another way to make a living and it is not the easy street you make it out to be...

Again my condolences to the USAJet crew.

Sorry for the thread drift.

 

[skysharke]

Depends on whats digging the ditch....

http://www.popsci.com/scitech/article/2008-04/massive-underwater-ditch-digging-robot


Hmm,Lets see on call 24/7 pager, Pushing 2000 lbs skids to the back of an Falcon on a ramp in El Paso over 95 degrees, Flying was the easy part about this job and did I mention the 20 hour FREIGHT DELAYS.... It really is too bad that someone actually died while doing his job. Of course D Clifton said at the Monday morning crew meeting following the accident(USA director of operations)" Look what we are doing for the families. We are flying Lonnie's body back to Ohio. You can all be very proud that you work here"Enough said..

 

[avbug]

I will state again, however, that giving your life for your job is not a consequence paid in many other fields/jobs/professions, hinged directly to your judgement, skills, decision making. I don't really know why I am sharing this with another so called aviator, but humor me, and don't think I am trying to be patronizing.

You are being patronizing, but I'll humor you.

Give your life for your job? You mean pilots who die while being paid to be pilots? Of course it happens in may professions, and the truth is that pilots flying white collar shirt-and-tie type flying don't see it very often at all. I happen to have come from a segment of the industry that sees it more than any other segment of the industry, including the military...and certainly don't see flying as giving one's life to the profession.

Coal miners work hard, eventually die in the mine or out of the mine from the mine...and don't make what an airline pilot makes. I'd dare say that dog catchers are injured more often than pilots, as are law enforcement officers, probably hair dressers, and even the highly undervalued underwater basket weavers. What they don't do, and pilots do, is spend much of their waking time picketing and complaining about how hard they have it.

I have landed with 2 declared emergencies for actual a/c emergencies where the aircrafts flying abilities had been impaired, and Lord knows how many medical emergencies in busy airspace trying to fly a plane to the limit to get it on the ground ASAP. (I am sure you have your own stories.)

This happens to you a lot, does it? I've flown for three different aeromedical operations in the past, dealing with patients of every ilk and trauma and complaint, and can only imagine I've seen a very few occasions, if any, involving trying to get the airplane to the ground ASAP. You've had a truly difficult career thus far.

While I look forward to that easy leg while I can sit in the padded seat and not do any mental work, everything goes just as it should, it doesn't deviate from the dispatchers plan, I get to fly in on an uncharged arrival at the speed of my choosing when being cleared to land by my own maneuvering, to taxi in with an airport that has no runways to cross other aircraft to contend with, no wrong turns, just glide straight into the gate with all personnel exactly where they should be and all equipment clear just for me.

What's an uncharged arrival? You get charged for your arrivals? You do have a difficult job.

I had no idea you had to cross runways. That's very rough. And other aircraft to contend with (with which to contend, actually)...very, very rough. Taxi drivers in NYC must be grateful they don't have your job. That taxi to the gate is a real killer...to say nothing of parking. Please don't tell me they actually make you fly an approach you didn't choose...I don't think I can bear to hear it. If only the public understood this hardship, I'm sure they'd donate a house or possibly build a monument to the hard working pilot. Perhaps move the Vietnam War Memorial over, or something like that, to make room for those who really have it tough.

I personally haven't been as lucky or as fortunate as others and been able to skip manual labor... just the way it worked for me personally.

To skip manual labor? What is manual labor? Some kind of lesser function that's just a step on the way to a job where one need only sit and push buttons? Skip manual labor? How truly arrogant. "Oh, I don't do manual labor, you see...I skipped it to come here". Mindbendingly unbelievable, and oh, so arrogant. We're all only a step removed from the gutter at any given time...some of us actually work for a living.

Manual labor is really something to be skipped? Good thing nobody told that to the people who built your airplane. Or maintain it. Or built the terminal where you enplane and deplane, or the runways, or the airway facilities...or the FMS or other trying, difficult, and complex gadget upon which you are forced to leave the imprint of one, solitary finger.

I am sorry that you feel the need to belittle the profession I "work" in.

Mmmm. Truth hurts, doesn't it?

You see, I work here too. Dick Scobee said it best, not long before he was killed. He said "You know, it's a real crime to be paid for something I have so much fun doing."

He understood. It's employment. It's a job. It's not work.

One day you'll understand too...even if you never got to "skip" manual labor.

 

[canadflyau]

I am so sorry my points have fallen deaf on you, and you stoop to pretending to know me and absolutely twist most of everything I have said.. So uncle, Avbug 2 canadflyau 2

Go check out the studies of pilots and life spans I can post links if you would like.. cancer rates. Yep doing the job absolutely takes a major toll on ones health.

At what point did I indicate I have skipped manual labor... couldn't be farther from the truth! I just have flown with lots of pilots whom have never worked a minute outside of aviation. Again, that was their course not mine, not for my era. Timing is everything, mine in the aviation sense has been terrible, but I wouldn't trade my experiences from the world. In fact some I loved, if only those jobs could have met my long term goals.

Yep, stuff breaks, and yes people have heart attack, fall unconscious, etc. and have needed other urgent care that requires them on the ground ASAP, sorry that is too much for you to grasp.

You, sir are patronizing. Hopefully I have given you enough to get another smart response.. I can't wait.

You can fly my schedule and let me know what you think anytime.... it is just such a breeze!

 

[avbug]

Yep, stuff breaks, and yes people have heart attack, fall unconscious, etc. and have needed other urgent care that requires them on the ground ASAP, sorry that is too much for you to grasp.

This happens to you a lot, then? These medical emergencies, too many to count? And not even during medical operations?

I've spent much of my career flying emergency operations...real emergency operations mind you involving constant threat to life and property...medical, fire, and law enforcement. Off the top of my head, I can think of one time out of thousands of hours of missions, in which I ever had to expedite "ASAP."

I must say I'm in awe of your experience. For an airline pilot it's a wonder to behold.

I have landed with 2 declared emergencies for actual a/c emergencies where the aircrafts flying abilities had been impaired, and Lord knows how many medical emergencies in busy airspace trying to fly a plane to the limit to get it on the ground ASAP.

The Lord does know how many, I've no doubt, but I seiously don't think it's quite so many as you believe. If it is then perhaps you're simply a disaster magnet.

 

[canadflyau]

Of course it happens in may professions, and the truth is that pilots flying white collar shirt-and-tie type flying don't see it very often at all.

Yep, I hope to never have to deal with it again.

You've had a truly difficult career thus far.

You know me well.

What's an uncharged arrival? You get charged for your arrivals? You do have a difficult job. I had no idea you had to cross runways. That's very rough.

lol... (sorry schpelling) Why am I going to explain an illustration, that very little actually goes exactly as planned and such mundane tasks (as viewed by us) can still have fatal or undesirable circumstance.. even in the dullest/simplest part of the job.

Manual labor is really something to be skipped?

I keep saying things without actually saying them. But for the jury, I am very glad to have worked a multitude of jobs, and am glad to have had experiences well away from airplanes on my resume, in character building, and skill-set. Many of which I could have done for the rest of my life. Nowhere did I say, unappreciated or beneath me, or that I am above... please strike those assertions from the record.

He said "You know, it's a real crime to be paid for something I have so much fun doing."

He understood. It's employment. It's a job. It's not work.

Yep it employment, its a job, but it is not a crime. I work hard, try to play hard, but flying in the end is just a job that I had to put a lot into that I have gotten very little out of. The fun is waining at best and not the determinant of QOL pay. JMHO, but obviously not. Somehow you and I can't just agree to disagree and this is more about me. Not sure how the fact I think we work hard and you don't has led to this..

Good luck!

 

[canadflyau]

If it is then perhaps you're simply a disaster magnet.

Actually you make me laugh b/c I could argue this point to be true.

This happens to you a lot, then? These medical emergencies, too many to count? And not even during medical operations?

We don't give health exams to board passengers. I have had lots of people nod off heading to FL. Had seizures. A lady become unresponsive smack dab in the middle of an ETOPS flight.

We don't second guess when medlink says get it on the ground ASAP.. If you declare a medical emergency, aww never-mind. Nothing special here, not sure why you find this so amazing..

 

[canadflyau]

I must say I'm in awe of your experience. For an airline pilot it's a wonder to behold.

Is this where you and I seem to diverge and is bringing on personal attack? I am sorry that I now fly for an airline (you assume) and it is causing a stumbling block.

I am very sorry for the thread drift, and am sorry that this guy got my blood pressure up on a USAJet thread (where I used to work) and talk about this job being simple with them recently losing an airplane a man's life and jobs.

So Avbug please forgive me for being defensive, I must have crossed the line with you. Thank you for trying to persecute me over my defense of the profession. Like I said I would rather just agree to disagree.

Best of luck to you.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

Avbug,

Granted, flying isn't as physically demanding as an occupation which requires brut strength and endurance. But to say a professional pilots job isn't real work, well, that's an insult to you and everyone else who gets paid a cent to turn one, two, three or four engines.

You know yourself that there is plenty of tasks to be attended to between the long boring legs. Plenty. To me that constitutes work which requires knowledge that was acquired through a LOT of hard work. Aside from pushing buttons, there aretimes where a plane MUST be hand flown, and depending on what and why, this can be physically demanding. But what I think most pilots feel is mental fatigue and maybe that's not the same as being physically sore, it is none the less fatiguing to the point of inducing pilot error.

Maybe this is a point of who hurts more at the end of the day, but suffice it to say, the whole commuting (many times part of the job) and flying WILL leave you fatigued. This is not much different than the unskilled laborer at the end of his day.

 

[avbug]

But to say a professional pilots job isn't real work, well, that's an insult to you and everyone else who gets paid a cent to turn one, two, three or four engines.

Not really. I agree with Dick Scobee.

 

[DeltaLima21]

Regardless of whose right and whose wrong...Having that attitude will never stop the downward trend of this career....

 

[JohnDoe]

canadflyau:

Don't bother. In case you haven't noticed by avbug's recent and past posts, he:

-Is always right and everybody else is wrong
-Has "been there and done that" with regards to everything
-He's always done harder jobs than everybody else

Just kneel before the alter dedicated to avbug and move on.

 

[ABUSED PILOT]

Avbug- As A Neutral Party Observing The Whole Exchange You Have A Lot Of Growing Up To Do. You MORON

 

[avbug]

Very professional. You probably don't do much work, either. Truth hurts, doesn't it?

 

[Big Beer Belly]

Very professional. You probably don't do much work, either. Truth hurts, doesn't it?

You just received a well-deserved bitch slap from several posters and that's your erudite comeback? D-u-d-e! :laugh:


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