US Airways MEC files lawsuit against AWA MEC

[JT8D]

Don't work there, so don't have a dog in this fight; but just how do you ever see the operations being combined??

You have to have a 'combined contract' before you can integrate the operations together; and the chances of that were Very Very 'dim' before the list came out, now is is probably "ZERO" I saw the contract (pay) proposal the company put out last month, and with "cheap A$$" drunk Parker (cost neutral guy), my guess is that was their "First, Last, Best and Final Offer"

So how do you realistically see the operations being combined?? Even if you get 'a little' more in the pay/contract area; you will NEVER have enough votes on the 'east side' now to get anything passed??????

That is why the 'list' doesn't really mean anything (my understanding), without a 'combined contract.' Just something to think about, for what's its worth.

DA

All good points...

The airline can be run "indefinitely" from what I understand with two separate pilot groups with separate metal. At this point I don't think it is hard to envision it staying that way into the foreseeable future...or until the airline's demise.

This "merger" was doomed from the get-go...forcing a prostitute with a heart of gold and a born loser no matter how hard he trys into a shotgun wedding...

Their offspring taint gonna be no good...

 

[luckytohaveajob]

The metal is already combined. Easties fly west equipment and vice a versa.

Yes the operations can be run separately indefinitely as it should be. The easties should be downsized, retired out the back while the west is expanded. all new deliveries should go to the west. all new routes should go to the west. everything new should go to the west.

the west saved the jobs of every east pilot and the west should benefit from this point forward.

also the east should decertify alpo, and send the message to darth prater that his leadership is vacuum.

 

[hockeypilot44]

The metal is already combined. Easties fly west equipment and vice a versa.

Yes the operations can be run separately indefinitely as it should be. The easties should be downsized, retired out the back while the west is expanded. all new deliveries should go to the west. all new routes should go to the west. everything new should go to the west.

the west saved the jobs of every east pilot and the west should benefit from this point forward.

also the east should decertify alpo, and send the message to darth prater that his leadership is vacuum.

I do not think that is accurate. Then metal is not combined yet. Also, as an outsider looking in, this was not a fair merger. It is fair short term, but does not take into account the mass retirements that will happen on the East side in the next five years. If there would have been some fences put up, the West pilots could justify the decision. That being said, arguing it on this board is not going to do anything. If I were a West pilot, I would just keep my mouth shut and go on with my job. Long term, this is a windfall for the West. Why degrade the East guys that just got ******************** on? It just shows lack of professionalism and compassion. If I were an East guy or part of the East MEC, I would do everything in my power to try and get this binding agreement thrown out. It is probably impossible to do, but not signing a combined contract is possible and probably is exactly what will happen. If they delay it for a few years, it can act as a temporary fence.

 

[klr1395]

I would like to think that most people are more objective than to truly believe this was not a symbiotic union. Yes, AAA was closer to actual liquidation, but let's not kid ourselves AWA would not be surviving let alone profitable without this merger. They needed AAA almost as much as it was the other way around. I don't have a dog in this fight, and yes the AAA fellas (or at least the vocal minority) seem to be acting a bit unreasonably but neither would be around and in the shape they are now without the other. To say the saving of jobs was one-sided is short sighted and somewhat obtuse in my opinion. Hey, What do I know, just a soon-too-be rookie here. Cheers and best to all on both sides, klr

 

[Hpilot]

From what I've seen on this board people that say, "I don't have a dog in this fight" or "outside looking in" either have no idea of what is going on or really do have a dog in the fight.

 

[klr1395]

Heck, I fly out of PNS on a regular basis and for better or worse US Airways is one of the better options so it is in my personal interests at this point to see them succeed.. As for not knowing what I am talking about are you really trying to tell me that AWA's balance sheet was strong and headed in the right direction prior to the merger?

 

[MK82Man]

It’ really unbelievable. What does the East really think? By filing a lawsuit that will drag on for years that they can stiff arm the process? OK, I guess that will happen. But in the mean time they are losing out on a minimum 15% pay raise per month. Go Figure? Where are the top 515 Captains on the East side? You’d think they’d be raising holy heck to get a combined contract – every month that goes by is money they don’t pocket. There lifestyle isn’t changing one bit … they are the top dogs at the new company and they are sitting there silent. Who does the lawsuit try to protect? The fuloughees don’t want to come back anyway as evidenced by the poor acceptance rate. With no mass migration between domicles, life for the line pilot isn’t going to change much anyway. Stephens will drag the East down, and so far; there is no groundswell of Easties trying to have him recalled. Prater’s video (if you haven’t been to the ALPA web site to see it, you should) was a polite lesson on what ALPA’s policy will be. They are trying to give the East some room (and yes they delayed it another month on Monday, now no resolution till July), but I guess they are really giving them the rope to hang themselves. Problem is they want to drag the West down at the same time. Prater will not allow it to drag ALPA down. And I’ve said it before, Parker won’t let that happen to the company as a whole either – he will move assets to the West side and grow the West. If the East does not come around very quickly, expect the West to open Section 6 contract talks on our own and secure a new contract … and yes profits from the East and West section will fuel that increase in West Pay and Benefits. The East will be stuck on the Bankruptcy contract until 1 Jan 1010 … and then the talks just start. Expect about 4 more years of your Bankruptcy Contract before you’d get a pay raise. I just don’t get it. The East MEC is suing the West MEC … unfreaking believable way to start a new airline. Every West Pilot probably wishes we would have just let ‘em go under. We haven’t had a single new hire in 2.5 years while we “worked” to merge with the East, most of us are beginning to think it was a waste of time. Who on the East will stand up and prove that we can make a go of it without suing each other? At some point the goodwill of West pilots will give out and we’ll just be the Hatfields and McCoys – there is still some chance to prevent it.

 

[PCL_128]

Stephens will drag the East down, and so far; there is no groundswell of Easties trying to have him recalled.

Perhaps you missed the fact that so many AAA pilots showed up to the Herndon offices for the EC meeting a few weeks ago that there wasn't even enough room in the conference rooms for them. Well over 200 Easties were there in person to tell Darth Prater and the EC that they demand action from National on this. So, it's obvious that Captain Stephan (not Stephens) is acting on his pilots wishes. Unlike Darth Prater, Captain Stephan is actually doing what his membership is demanding.

 

[JT8D]

And I’ve said it before, Parker won’t let that happen to the company as a whole either – he will move assets to the West side and grow the West. If the East does not come around very quickly, expect the West to open Section 6 contract talks on our own and secure a new contract .

And the new contract will suck...as all (both) the west's contracts have...

You sir...are definitely living in a dream world...

Welcome to the Majors.

 

[vtwin]

I have jumped on East iron several times and found the majority of pilots to be intelligent decent human beings. The one time I had a problem was with an FO who was in the union. If he had said the things he said in the cockpit to me in a bar somewhere I would have broken him in half. Unfortunately I think slime balls like this guy are calling the shots over there and it reflects poorly on the rest. Best of luck to the good people on both sides, screw the rest.

Oh hp, your such a bad ass with that attitude, I bet the chicks really dig you!

"Broken him in half", ohhh, what a tough guy. A legend in your own mind, and obviously not OK with yourself. Are you going to post your height and weight again to intimidate us?

I really like your kitty cat avatar!

 

[A350]

PCL128:

While I have disagreed with you on many things, mostly ALPA stuff, congrats on moving on to Airtran. It is nice to see there are some success stories out there for people who do love this profession.....

However, I notice the Darth Prater references and am wondering why the total turnaround on ALPA?

A350

 

[AutoBus]

I do not think that is accurate. Then metal is not combined yet. Also, as an outsider looking in, this was not a fair merger. It is fair short term, but does not take into account the mass retirements that will happen on the East side in the next five years. If there would have been some fences put up, the West pilots could justify the decision. That being said, arguing it on this board is not going to do anything. If I were a West pilot, I would just keep my mouth shut and go on with my job. Long term, this is a windfall for the West. Why degrade the East guys that just got ******************** on? It just shows lack of professionalism and compassion. If I were an East guy or part of the East MEC, I would do everything in my power to try and get this binding agreement thrown out. It is probably impossible to do, but not signing a combined contract is possible and probably is exactly what will happen. If they delay it for a few years, it can act as a temporary fence.

Look Dude, I'm a West pilot, I am not too far from upgrade, as a senior FO a enjoy a great schedule. What RIGHT do the EAST GUYS have to my seniority? What rights do the EAST guys have to my upgrade? NONE!!!

Sorry, only the stupid, foolish or blind can't see that ALPA Merger Policy was followed! I am slightly below where I was (Thanks to the 517 widebodies), Should I have to give something up because the east guys are old and worked for a crappy company?

They don't like that thier 18 year guy is slotted next to our 3 month guy, well my question is, at what kind of company does the last guy on the list have 18 years of "time in service"? He had no seniority, none, he was the last guy on the list, how does that happen? why did that happen?

The only thing I can say is our bottom guy and thier bottom guy are on the bottom of the combined list, exactly where they deserve to be!

 

[PCL_128]

PCL128:

While I have disagreed with you on many things, mostly ALPA stuff, congrats on moving on to Airtran. It is nice to see there are some success stories out there for people who do love this profession.....

Thanks. I appreciate it.

However, I notice the Darth Prater references and am wondering why the total turnaround on ALPA?

No turnaround on ALPA at all. I'm still just as much an ALPA "cheerleader" as always. My disgust is directed only towards Prater, not towards the Association itself. Any organization is only as good as the people leading it, and unfortunately, Prater happens to be leading ALPA for the next few years. He's proven himself to be ineffective and incompetent with both the Age-60 issue and the AAA/AWA issue.

I guess I just miss Duane.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Thanks. I appreciate it.



No turnaround on ALPA at all. I'm still just as much an ALPA "cheerleader" as always. My disgust is directed only towards Prater, not towards the Association itself. Any organization is only as good as the people leading it, and unfortunately, Prater happens to be leading ALPA for the next few years. He's proven himself to be ineffective and incompetent with both the Age-60 issue and the AAA/AWA issue.

I guess I just miss Duane.

Of course you miss Duane.....

I agree that the USAir guys are getting screwed, but as they say, what goes around comes around..... What about the screwing that the wholly owned ALG/PDT/PSA guys got? What about the fact that ALPA merger policy has been manipulated for years? It's all about who's OX is getting gored...

By the way, what do think of the USAir MEC filing a lawsuit?

 

[PCL_128]

What about the screwing that the wholly owned ALG/PDT/PSA guys got?

I refer you to Captain Beebe's testimony on the Ford/Cooksey litigations. No "screwing" took place of the WO'd pilots. That's just RJDC propaganda.

What about the fact that ALPA merger policy has been manipulated for years?

I agree that ALPA merger policy has been manipulated. The UAL/AAA proposed merger is what precipitated the big change in policy. The UAL MEC knew that any inclusion of DOH in the policy would have put them at a disadvantage due to the extremely senior AAA group, so they worked hard to change the policy and remove any mention of DOH. Unfortunately, they were successful. It didn't end up helping the UAL guys since the merger never happened, but it still ended up screwing the AAA pilots in the end.

By the way, what do think of the USAir MEC filing a lawsuit?

Read towards the top of the thread, Joe. I already stated that I don't agree with lawsuits against fellow ALPA pilots. I understand that Captain Stephan and the AAA MEC feel the need to protect their pilots, but I disagree with that specific avenue.

 

[BeCareful!]

Look Dude, I'm a West pilot, I am not too far from upgrade, as a senior FO a enjoy a great schedule. What RIGHT do the EAST GUYS have to my seniority? What rights do the EAST guys have to my upgrade? NONE!!!

Hi Auto -

Sounds like a fence would take care of your seniority concerns. That's what any complicated integration like this one should have.

No one here wanted to harm you, but we did want to take part in the retirement-driven progression that was here in the East. I ask you: what right do west pilots have to ride that wave of retirements in front of east pilots?

A fence.....a really big one.....is the only thing that would allow this to be fair. Of course, it's a temporary fix and wouldn't prevent injustices from occurring when DP buys United.

There's still two things I can't find: 1) a West pilot who says he wanted this merger, and 2) a West pilot who doesn't mind a fence.

Hmmm....why is that?

 

[Scope out RJ's]

Hey 737 PYLT your girl is loose again go get her back before she bites someone

WD.

What's the matter, business on the street corners quiet tonight? Dress up a little better!
Stop back when you grow a pair!

 

[Scope out RJ's]

If you don't like your situation, I'd be gald to have you pull gear for me in my toy RJ.

Signed,

Another "little child".

He, He, He...........................

Frst of all, you need to be a captain, let alone pilot, lav boy!

 

[Fast43]

Hi Auto -


No one here wanted to harm you, but we did want to take part in the retirement-driven progression that was here in the East. I ask you: what right do west pilots have to ride that wave of retirements in front of east pilots?

quote]


Man what rock have you been hiding under. " No one here wanted to harm you!!!!!) What do you call MANIAICAL Insistance on DOH even after the Arbitrator said that DOH is DOA.

Absent the Merger you have no progression just one massive retirement of everyone. Remember, even your Union leaders were posting info on the message boards on how to apply for Unemployment in your respective States etc. Please explain to me how applying for unemployment equates to PROGRESSION??? That being said, please take a look at precisely how many retirements on the east side will actually be from the Captain seat. Not as many as you are led to believe.

The sense of entitlement of you east guys is sickening and embarrassing to say the least.

 

[linecheck]

This whole industry is MANIACAL!!!!

 

[737 Pylt]

I have jumped on East iron several times and found the majority of pilots to be intelligent decent human beings. The one time I had a problem was with an FO who was in the union. If he had said the things he said in the cockpit to me in a bar somewhere I would have broken him in half.

With what, your pocketbook???:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

737

 

[PHXFLYR]

sadly, I think a few slimeballs in the union are running the shots at every MEC. The really sad thing is the pilot groups at these airlines continue to elect the same pathetic union reps.

That's because they are the only knuckleheads that step up and run for the various positions.No sane and rational person would,that's for sure.

PHXFLYR

 

[TWA Dude]

There's still two things I can't find: 1) a West pilot who says he wanted this merger, and 2) a West pilot who doesn't mind a fence.

Hmmm....why is that?

Quote from "The Sixth Sense": "People see what they want to see."

1) Whether we wanted the merger or not is irrelevant. Management makes these decisions and we have to deal with it.

2) I don't mind a fence. Drop the nuisance suit, drop the dump-ALPA campaign, accept the Nicolau Award and let's negotiate as equals through the JNC.

 

[TWA Dude]

Unfortunately, they were successful. It didn't end up helping the UAL guys since the merger never happened, but it still ended up screwing the AAA pilots in the end.

I've never gotten a satisfactory explanation to this question: if not getting a DOH integration "screws" the USAir pilots, why don't you lament how a DOH integration would've stapled over 2/3 of the AWA pilots?

ALPA Merger Policy simply demands that neither pilot group be unfairly advantaged. Obviously many disagree with Nicolau's decision but that's what often happens in binding arbitration. Putting DOH into ALPA policy directly contradicts the no-windfall clause. DOH may be a fair way to integrate or may not. Aside from pure selfishness, I truly don't understand the "DOH is the only fair way" mantra.

 

[PHXFLYR]

You had a chance a year and a half ago to negotiate a fence of some sort,but chose to push for a DOH intergration at the expense of everything else. Your negotation comittee gambled and loss. You now have to deal with it going forward. No fence. No how. Period . Deal with it.

PHXFLYR

 

[ultrarunner]

Today the East MEC filed a lawsuit against the AWA MEC in the Superior Court of the District of Columbia seeking to vacate the Nicolau Award.

Wouldn't you file suit agains Nicolau??? It' was his award, right?

WTF does the AWA MEC have to do with Nicolau's award? Both sides agreed to binding arbitration, right???

Seems like a good wast of money to me.

 

[PCL_128]

ALPA Merger Policy simply demands that neither pilot group be unfairly advantaged.

Don't you see that ALPA merger policy wasn't applied in that case? Don't you believe that you received an unfair advantage in this integration? Anyone in the West that claims they don't see that isn't being honest. Hundreds of East pilots will retire in the right seat having never upgraded, and meanwhile a bunch of young 90s hires at AWA will upgrade ahead of them. How is that not an unfair advantage?

Putting DOH into ALPA policy directly contradicts the no-windfall clause.

"Putting DOH into ALPA policy" isn't exactly accurate. Putting DOH back into merger policy is how it should be written. Until the UAL pilots fought to remove it, DOH was included in merger policy. The current policy is a relatively recent change.

 

[TWA Dude]

Don't you see that ALPA merger policy wasn't applied in that case?

TWA Dude writes:
No, I most certainly don't. The Policy states that Nicolau is the final decider. Disagreeing with his opinion doesn't mean Policy wasn't followed.

Don't you believe that you received an unfair advantage in this integration?

No, I most certainly don't. Why do you even bother asking?

Anyone in the West that claims they don't see that isn't being honest.

I'll accept that only if you accept that anyone in the East who claims DOH/LOS wouldn't be an unfair advantage to them is also being dishonest.

Hundreds of East pilots will retire in the right seat having never upgraded, and meanwhile a bunch of young 90s hires at AWA will upgrade ahead of them. How is that not an unfair advantage?

The disadvantaged AAA careers are a result of the company shrinking to almost half its size. You're misplacing blame. Why should our upgrades suffer unduly as a result of the merger? A fair integration shares the gains and pains.

"Putting DOH into ALPA policy" isn't exactly accurate. Putting DOH back into merger policy is how it should be written. Until the UAL pilots fought to remove it, DOH was included in merger policy.

You're right, DOH used to be there. Also, the industry used to be regulated, mergers use to be between two fairly old carriers, and carriers used to be much smaller. The industry changed and so did merger policy.

The current policy is a relatively recent change.

I believe DOH was removed from ALPA Policy in the early 90's. I wouldn't call that very recent.

Bottom lines:

The AWA pilots were given access to the daily arbitration hearing transcripts. The USA pilots weren't. Why not? Nicolau said some things the East pilots really needed to hear. For some reason the East pilots were led down a primrose path that DOH/LOS was somehow achievable. My understanding is that the East MC was told to fight for DOH/LOS or face recall. Hardly a realistic way to conduct a negotiation.

It's pointless to debate the merits of this method of integration or that now. Our sides debated for a year and a half. We both played by the rules and the arbitrator rendered his decision. Now, the East is trying to extort concessions from the West and that's despicable. It makes a mockery of due-process.

 

[Ace McCoy]

Hundreds of East pilots will retire in the right seat having never upgraded, and meanwhile a bunch of young 90s hires at AWA will upgrade ahead of them. How is that not an unfair advantage?

I don't understand. Wouldn't those guys have retired from the right seat without the merger?

So what's the difference now?

 

[ferlo]

It’ really unbelievable. What does the East really think? By filing a lawsuit that will drag on for years that they can stiff arm the process?

The suit will be thrown out inside of a few weeks, It won't drag on at all.