US Airways' go-it-alone approach paying off

[johnnyb]

Jonny;
During that time pilot O'dell (who brought a job to the game)

Regards.

Since Mr O is now furloughed I disagree.

In addition, your pilot group is flying 24% of your block hours on the East side of the fence yet you continue to claim you 'brought jobs'.

Make no mistake, I don't want to see anyone out West on the street - just drop the attitude.

 

[get2flyin]

Since Mr O is now furloughed I disagree.

In addition, your pilot group is flying 24% of your block hours on the East side of the fence yet you continue to claim you 'brought jobs'.

Make no mistake, I don't want to see anyone out West on the street - just drop the attitude.

The flying between East and West has been intermingled. The West pilots have seen routes they have flown for years get transferred to East crews. You haven't "LOST" 24% of your flying to the West crews...even if that's what USAPA told you happened.

 

[johnnyb]

Ah the USAPA boogie man behind every sage cactus. Actually, it was our beloved CEO who rattled off the 24% vs 4% flying exchange.

 

[cactusboy53]

As you pointed out, Colello was furloughed as of 2003. As a result of the merger he was recalled to the bottom of your list. On the Nicolau list, Colello was placed at the bottom of the combined list of employed pilots. How is that not fair?

Once all of the furloughed pilots are recalled and hiring resumes in PHX, DOH with USAPA's C&R's would allow east pilots to bid 50% of the captain vacancies in PHX. At that point, Colello could hold a captain's slot on the A320 in PHX. Explain to me how that's fair.

Guppiedriver;
I am sorry for any losses that you and other former US Air pilots have gotten in the past. The "It's not fair" arguement simply doesn't fly in an arbitration. The AAA MEC gave it's marching orders to the MC: "DATE OF HIRE!". At no point did the AAA MC shoot for a more reasonable approach that may have included some sort of LOS. During the entire process, the AAA MEC informed the AAA pilot group that DOH was a LOCK!

It remains to be a long and drawn out process. This all because one party chose to not honor an agreement that was entered into collectively. All the fancy arguements on how F&B arbitration only applies to the MC members only (and all the other nonsense) will not change the end result. The AWA may ultimately lose this battle, but there is one court that no one escapes. All actions, statements, secrets and folly are seen by the judge. It says so in the big manual.

 

[PHXFLYR]

Since Mr O is now furloughed I disagree.

In addition, your pilot group is flying 24% of your block hours on the East side of the fence yet you continue to claim you 'brought jobs'.

Make no mistake, I don't want to see anyone out West on the street - just drop the attitude.

You first .

PHXFLYR

 

[Guppiedriver]

Guppiedriver;
I am sorry for any losses that you and other former US Air pilots have gotten in the past. The "It's not fair" arguement simply doesn't fly in an arbitration. The AAA MEC gave it's marching orders to the MC: "DATE OF HIRE!". At no point did the AAA MC shoot for a more reasonable approach that may have included some sort of LOS. During the entire process, the AAA MEC informed the AAA pilot group that DOH was a LOCK!

It remains to be a long and drawn out process. This all because one party chose to not honor an agreement that was entered into collectively. All the fancy arguements on how F&B arbitration only applies to the MC members only (and all the other nonsense) will not change the end result. The AWA may ultimately lose this battle, but there is one court that no one escapes. All actions, statements, secrets and folly are seen by the judge. It says so in the big manual.

Huh? Re-read my post.....I am a westie.

 

[cactusboy53]

Huh? Re-read my post.....I am a westie.

Sorry about that. I mis-read your post.
Regards.

 

[mesaserf]

Guppiedriver;
I am sorry for any losses that you and other former US Air pilots have gotten in the past. The "It's not fair" arguement simply doesn't fly in an arbitration. The AAA MEC gave it's marching orders to the MC: "DATE OF HIRE!". At no point did the AAA MC shoot for a more reasonable approach that may have included some sort of LOS. During the entire process, the AAA MEC informed the AAA pilot group that DOH was a LOCK!

It remains to be a long and drawn out process. This all because one party chose to not honor an agreement that was entered into collectively. All the fancy arguements on how F&B arbitration only applies to the MC members only (and all the other nonsense) will not change the end result. The AWA may ultimately lose this battle, but there is one court that no one escapes. All actions, statements, secrets and folly are seen by the judge. It says so in the big manual.

I can't see how the easties can ultimately win. There is no way in hell any court in the country would overturn the arbitrated award. The arbitration system is the safety valve for the court system to try to keep to a minimum the case backlog. If this is overturned it would be a true Pandora's box.

Or am I full of it?

 

[Full of LUV]

I can't see how the easties can ultimately win. There is no way in hell any court in the country would overturn the arbitrated award. The arbitration system is the safety valve for the court system to try to keep to a minimum the case backlog. If this is overturned it would be a true Pandora's box.

Or am I full of it?

I don't believe the intent is to overturn the arbitration, it's just to draw out the process as they are benefiting (in USAPA's opinion) by getting closer to retirement in their current seats. It's effectively permanent fences until the SLI is consumated.
USAPA hasn't sued to have NIC overturned, their only hope is that an exasperated AWA group finally gives in to opening up negotiations (in the guise of a PWA) that agrees to an SLI outside the NIC list.
Otherwise, short of that, the status quo is what they are implementing and hoping for a "snap back" provision in their contract to possibly kick in.
Like I stated before, eventually the much younger AWA group will outlive the majority of the USAPA group and then they will have enough of a majority to retake the union helm of the company and implement what's left of the Nic list, but apparently it's going to take quite some time.

 

[atpcliff]

they are recalling pilots as of today

 

[Metrojet]

I don't believe the intent is to overturn the arbitration, it's just to draw out the process as they are benefiting (in USAPA's opinion) by getting closer to retirement in their current seats. It's effectively permanent fences until the SLI is consumated.
USAPA hasn't sued to have NIC overturned, their only hope is that an exasperated AWA group finally gives in to opening up negotiations (in the guise of a PWA) that agrees to an SLI outside the NIC list.
Otherwise, short of that, the status quo is what they are implementing and hoping for a "snap back" provision in their contract to possibly kick in.
Like I stated before, eventually the much younger AWA group will outlive the majority of the USAPA group and then they will have enough of a majority to retake the union helm of the company and implement what's left of the Nic list, but apparently it's going to take quite some time.

The status quo is really not what we want - we want a raise for both the West and the East - but if the West continues to fight a JC with conditions and restrictions - then the majority of the East is willing to wait and see what happens in the LOA 93 pay issue - and if it is beneficial to the East - and we will be having additional retirements in 2.3 years - then the status quo would be fine.
Also, many of the Captains are now receiving PBGC benefits - so they are also fine with the status quo.
It is in the best interests of the younger "West" guys to convince their PHX rep to have AOL cease and desist with any further legal maneuvers - and instead work together for a JC with C&R. Otherwise - IMHO - it is going to be a very long time before we agree on anything - no less a new contract.
That is the reality -

Metrojet

 

[TWA Dude]

It is in the best interests of the younger "West" guys to convince their PHX rep to have AOL cease and desist with any further legal maneuvers - and instead work together for a JC with C&R.

I know you really really really want us to succumb to your tyranny but it just won't happen. Of course we fully believe you actually have our best interests in mind by sharing your sage advice.

Otherwise - IMHO - it is going to be a very long time before we agree on anything - no less a new contract.

Now that's probably true -- and just the way Dougweiser wants it.

 

[get2flyin]

The status quo is really not what we want - we want a raise for both the West and the East - but if the West continues to fight a JC with conditions and restrictions - then the majority of the East is willing to wait and see what happens in the LOA 93 pay issue - and if it is beneficial to the East - and we will be having additional retirements in 2.3 years - then the status quo would be fine.
Also, many of the Captains are now receiving PBGC benefits - so they are also fine with the status quo.

So, basically what you're saying is you know the law isn't on your side but you're hoping to try to hold the West hostage and hope they collapse into some sort of Stockholm Syndrome. While it does move much slower than is desirable, the wheels of law continue to turn. Besides, Karma is a bitch.

It is in the best interests of the younger "West" guys to convince their PHX rep to have AOL cease and desist with any further legal maneuvers - and instead work together for a JC with C&R. Otherwise - IMHO - it is going to be a very long time before we agree on anything - no less a new contract.
That is the reality -

Metrojet

You think? Because I just about to write a post that said:

"It was in the best interests of ALL the "East" guys to convince their PHL and CLT reps to have USAPA cease and desist with any further legal maneuvers - and instead work together for a JC that met the letter of the agreement they are already legally bound to. Otherwise - IMHO - it is going to be a very long time before we agree on anything - no less a new contract."
​

Wow, what are the odds? It's almost spooky.

get2flyin

 

[St. Nic]

I can't see how the easties can ultimately win. There is no way in hell any court in the country would overturn the arbitrated award. The arbitration system is the safety valve for the court system to try to keep to a minimum the case backlog. If this is overturned it would be a true Pandora's box.

Or am I full of it?

You need to read the 9th's decision- Nicolau was effectively overturned. Tashima and Graber gave USAPA full authority to negotiate a seniority list with the company and put it to vote. That's what we will do- DOH with conditions and protections for the west. The time is ticking and soon we will have a great contract (with or without the west).
USAPA stands for all pilots. ALPA couldn't finish this but USAPA is about to.

 

[Metrojet]

So, basically what you're saying is you know the law isn't on your side but you're hoping to try to hold the West hostage and hope they collapse into some sort of Stockholm Syndrome. While it does move much slower than is desirable, the wheels of law continue to turn. Besides, Karma is a bitch.



You think? Because I just about to write a post that said:

"It was in the best interests of ALL the "East" guys to convince their PHL and CLT reps to have USAPA cease and desist with any further legal maneuvers - and instead work together for a JC that met the letter of the agreement they are already legally bound to. Otherwise - IMHO - it is going to be a very long time before we agree on anything - no less a new contract."
​

Wow, what are the odds? It's almost spooky.

get2flyin

Well - if you asked - since I am not an attorney - I don't quote the law - I will just defer to the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeal in SFO - and I believe you probably read the decision they rendered.

Metrojet

 

[get2flyin]

You need to read the 9th's decision- Nicolau was effectively overturned. Tashima and Graber gave USAPA full authority to negotiate a seniority list with the company and put it to vote. That's what we will do- DOH with conditions and protections for the west. The time is ticking and soon we will have a great contract (with or without the west).
USAPA stands for all pilots. ALPA couldn't finish this but USAPA is about to.

Great contract? You might see a contract that is better than what you have now, but it will be achieved by gutting the West contract to do it. Don't believe me?

Example: The West "OUT" time (when your paycheck starts) was triggered by Cabin door closed and Parking Brake released. The East "OUT" time started when *ALL* external doors were closed and the aircraft moved. USAPA essentially agreed to split the difference with the company and now the clock starts when the ALL doors are closed and P-Brake is released. Got everybody on-board but the ground crew is still loading cargo? Your doing it for free, compliments of USAPA...at the expense of the West. Same with "IN" time. Use to be last Setting of P-brake with the CABIN door open for the West. Now it's ANY door...and the FIRST thing the Ground crews do when the motors stop is pop the cargo door to get the "IN" time. A gain for East pilots (and a loss for West pilots) thanks to USAPA.
​

Yet you applaud and think you all have really achieved something. You'll all vote YES on your crappy contract because ANYTHING would be an improvement for the East...and...then...the DFR hearing will be ripe. It will be like all the sacrifices that the East made in the past to save their precious retirement...which they then had taken away. You'll get a crappy contract with DOH, and then the NIC will get put in. History has an amazing way for repeating itself, at the East pilot's expense, because you let yourselves get lead down the same paths by the same people.

 

[TWA Dude]

You need to read the 9th's decision- Nicolau was effectively overturned. .

No, you need to understand that the suit was overturned on ripeness and on ripeness alone. The judges' opinions are non-binding and are in fact irrelevant. But don't take my word for it.

DFR-II -- do you feel lucky?

 

[Guppiedriver]

You need to read the 9th's decision- Nicolau was effectively overturned. Tashima and Graber gave USAPA full authority to negotiate a seniority list with the company and put it to vote. That's what we will do- DOH with conditions and protections for the west. The time is ticking and soon we will have a great contract (with or without the west).
USAPA stands for all pilots. ALPA couldn't finish this but USAPA is about to.

Judge Tashima says......

"we leave USAPA to bargain in good faith pursuant to its DFR, with the interests of all members— both East and West — in mind, under pain of an unquestionably ripe DFR suit, once a contract is ratified."

 

[Crzipilot]

Why don't you include the quote that stipulates that a contract not including the NIC, in itself is not necessarily a cause for DFR lawsuit?

Kinda puts your quote into context....

 

[Crzipilot]

Well I'm feeling nice today, figured I'd do it for you.

As the majority opinion stated... " Additionally, USAPA’s final proposal may yet be one
that does not work the disadvantages Plaintiffs fear, even if
that proposal is not the Nicolau Award.3"

Oh and Footnote 3??? Seems they threw a shot at the dissenting opinion, wonder why that was????

3We do not address the thorny question of the extent to which the
Nicolau Award is binding on USAPA. We note, as the district court recognized, that USAPA is at least as free to abandon the Nicolau Award as was
its predecessor, ALPA. The dissent appears implicitly to assume that the
Nicolau Award, the product of the internal rules and processes of ALPA, is binding on USAPA.

Even the 9th says, We aren't going to say whether it's binding, or approach that issue, as the NIC award was a product of the INTERNAL rules and Processes of ALPA.

I believe that's what the bold letters say? Correct? So if I read that right, they are hinting that, if something comes out that doesn't include the NIC, it is not necessarily a DFR. And on top of that you must then prove that a new union is inherently stuck with the INTERNAL POLICIES of the union it replaced.

That's a good one......... Now boys and girls, can you tell me how that is different from say.....Uhmmmmmmmmmmmm inheriting the T/A or the West CBA and East CBA from alpa????


So do ya feel lucky? Got a spare 2 million laying around?