US Air firing pilot who's gun discharged

[NCFlyer]

NCflyer....All other flights are safer because of the FFDO program. You don't know if your pilots are armed or not, this in itself is a deterent for rush the flight deck door.

Possibly, but there is no way to quantify that for certain.

There is no way to make any door or barrier inpenetrable,

While that may be true I still think that I could make a door in less than a day that no one would be able to get through with something found on the aircraft.

The great thing about being american is we can disagree and no one will be hurt or persecuted for for their opinions. Personally, I am a strong supporter of the FFDO's and hope the program will continue at the same time hope for improvements in the current SOP's. Just curious, you criticize the training but have you been through the program?

Again as I said earlier, I won't have a falling out with some one that disagrees with me, I was just stating my own opinion and no more.

I don't believe that I criticized the training. If I sounded that way I apologize. I'm sure that the training is 1st rate. And no I haven't been through the program.

My beef is with the way the program is set up. Maybe because I haven't been through it I shouldn't comment 1 way or the other. My original point was: if you are going to make the pilots "federal" LEO's then give them the authority to carry the weapon. Not this mickey mouse program where some pilot has to carry his weapon around locked in his man purse and then at the appropriate time he is allowed to unlock & take out the weapon.

My other point was simply in response to the comment that any flight is safer with an armed pilot on board. I asked if arming the crew was required for flight safety then all crews needed to be armed.

 

[GuppyWN]

NCFlyer,

If people didn't speed there wouldn't be a need for speed traps.

If people didn't break into the cockpits and crash planes there wouldn't be a need for armed pilots.

If you don't like the program - no problem. Don't volunteer your time and $100's of dollars to sign up.

God forbid there ever comes a need for an FFDO to do what he was trained to do then I hope like hell he's on MY FLIGHT!

Gup

 

[kf4amu]

Like the training to carry concealed in FL? A 3 hour class that consists of how to fill out the application and then off to the range to fire 1 shot, which doesn't even have to hit the target.

The 2nd amendment doesn't require competency.

 

[Sig]

NCFlyer,

If people didn't speed there wouldn't be a need for speed traps.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IayHnA0cGuc

 

[PCL_128]

I'll presume he isn't getting back-pay and no doubt the FFDO program won't let him have another gun.

Correct. The lack of back pay is disturbing. I'm curious if USAPA used an attorney that had any experience in termination cases. In this case, DHS publicly stated numerous times that they were concerned with the faulty design of the holster, yet USAPA still couldn't get this guy a cent of back pay after 18 months? Troubling, to say the least.

I'm glad he's back at work, though. The termination was absolutely ridiculous.

 

[JAFI]

The 2nd amendment doesn't require competency.

Nither does being a parent,

Member of the House or Senate (always a good example)

President of the US (Now is a good example)

I do not have a dog in this fight but, to have this weapon discharge - because of it's specific safety - don't you have to pull the trigger? So why was the weapon out of the holster and pointing the direction it was? If he was putting it back in his holster would the hole in the aircraft be down not sideways? I'm told the hole was out the side of the aircraft.

I wonder what the cost was for fixing a bullet hole in an Airbus was? Should Airways have a mechanic job card for future "events" and what A,B, or C check should the walkaround look for bullet holes in the hull? I know it's not funny but it is.

I am not saying get rid of the program. I think any state certificated passenger should be armed if they wish. Either way this is a lesson in how not to handle a firearm like the video of the cop talking to a grade school group saying he was the only one qualified to handle a weapon as he shoots himself in the foot.....His pistol you had to pull the trigger to discharge the weapon too.

 

[Fly2AK]

My beef is with the way the program is set up. Maybe because I haven't been through it I shouldn't comment 1 way or the other. My original point was: if you are going to make the pilots "federal" LEO's then give them the authority to carry the weapon. Not this mickey mouse program where some pilot has to carry his weapon around locked in his man purse and then at the appropriate time he is allowed to unlock & take out the weapon.

NCflyer.......I agree with you on this point. Keep it safe, see ya!

 

[Fugawe]

??????

 

[A Squared]

Well, at first my thinking was, really tough to excuse an accidental discharge.

Then I watched the video.

YBSM!, they make you run the shackle of a padlock through the trigger guard? Of a loaded gun? a loaded gun with no safety? while it's in a holster and you can't see the trigger? And you do this every time you get up? WTH came up with that plan?

Now I'm just surprised that we've only had one AD in the FFDO program.

 

[PsubS]

Read the thread, man. It was not an accidental discharge.

It was an inadverdent discharge, and the pilot was to blame. I don't care if he keeps his job at USAir, but he dang sure did not do his job as an FFDO.

 

[A Squared]

It was not an accidental discharge. It was an inadverdent discharge,

You're going to have to explain in detail the difference between an "accidental" discharge and an "inadvertent" discharge and why exactly you think the difference is important, because it certainly seems to me like a meaningless semantic quibble with no real merit. But I'm always willing to learn.

 

[timmay]

Doesn't this situation beg the question, which is more likely to happen the "inadvertent" discharging of a firearm by a pilot or another hijacking. I would bet there will be more "Accidents" before hijack attempts.

 

[IBNAV8R]

Inadvertent or accidental, I've never heard of a modern firearm discharging without being manipulated.

 

[Fly-n-hi]

Doesn't this situation beg the question, which is more likely to happen the "inadvertent" discharging of a firearm by a pilot or another hijacking. I would bet there will be more "Accidents" before hijack attempts.

There have been at least 7 hijackings since 2006.

There has been 1 negligent discharge since the FFDO program was created in December, 2003.

None of the hijacked airliners were from US airlines. Coincidence?

Does this help to answer the question that was begged?




Source:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_notable_aircraft_hijackings#2000s

 

[A Squared]

Inadvertent or accidental, I've never heard of a modern firearm discharging without being manipulated.

Did you happen to watch the video? If not, do so and you'll see how the required procedure is an accident waiting to happen. Who in the He11 came up with the idea of threading the shackle of a padlock through the trigger guard, without being able to see where the trigger was? Granted, he apparently was performing this required procedure at a time when he should not have been; so if he'd been following the procedure according to SOP, it would have happened at the gate, rather than airborne. Would that have been better? Well they weren't airborne, so that's a bonus, but there are now people around the outside of the plane, so that's a minus.

 

[get2flyin]

Did you happen to watch the video? If not, do so and you'll see how the required procedure is an accident waiting to happen. Who in the He11 came up with the idea of threading the shackle of a padlock through the trigger guard, without being able to see where the trigger was?...................

There has only been on NEGLIGENT discharge because other people are following the procedure. Yeah..the trigger guard lock is goofy, but I guess they couldn't find a better way to secure make the weapon unusable without having it locked in the box so that's why they have a very specific set of procedures.

I think of it like this...you flew the DC-6, right? (*Love your avatar. Awesome airplane. Had a buddy who flew one for AeroFlight before the -215's) Say your company has a specific procedure for getting those tricky radials started and you decide to blow it off and come up with your own procedure. Say you're starting it one day using YOUR procedure and she catches fire and burns up. Who is to blame? Should you just get a slap on the wrist? If there is a procedure that they want you to use, use it. If you don't like it, get it changed. He didn't even wear the holster on this hip because he didn't like to have to undo his pretty little belt. He deserved walking papers.

 

[A Squared]

He didn't even wear the holster on this hip because he didn't like to have to undo his pretty little belt. He deserved walking papers.

Do you know this for a fact? Agreed that the gun was not on his hip when it discharged, but, if I understand correctly, you have to take the gun off, when you go to the restroom, and you have to take it off before you unass the airplane at the gate. And each time you thread the padlock through the trigger guard. Do you have any information which indicates he was doing something other than exactly what he would have been at the gate?

 

[get2flyin]

Do you know this for a fact? Agreed that the gun was not on his hip when it discharged, but, if I understand correctly, you have to take the gun off, when you go to the restroom, and you have to take it off before you unass the airplane at the gate. And each time you thread the padlock through the trigger guard. Do you have any information which indicates he was doing something other than exactly what he would have been at the gate?

I've watched the video that some wise-ass FFDO posted online to show how the holster is "faulty" and talked to guys that carry it. When the weapon is fully in the holster, the lock passes behind the trigger prohibiting removal from the holster. The ONLY way to get the padlock in front of the trigger where it could cause the weapon to fire is to undo the thumb snap and slide the weapon slightly out of the holster...THEN insert the padlock into the hole...THEN push the piston fully into the holster to secure the thumb strap. I don't know much about the TSA procedures, but I can say with 100% certainty that the thumb strap should NEVER be released unless the weapon is to be fully removed from the holster and the weapon should NEVER come out of the holster in the cockpit unless there is an actual threat to the security of the cockpit. Evidently, "Quick Draw McGraw's" personal procedure was to slide the thing slightly out of the holster because he felt that would give him a slight edge over the bad guys.

 

[Mr Wu]

Evidently, "Quick Draw McGraw's" personal procedure was to slide the thing slightly out of the holster because he felt that would give him a slight edge over the bad guys.

"Quick Draw McGraw's" personal procedure was to remove the weapon completely and place it on the glare shield during flight.

 

[ultrarunner]

"Quick Draw McGraw's" personal procedure was to remove the weapon completely and place it on the glare shield during flight.

C'mon, no one is THAT stupid! Not even an FFDO!