UPT Scandal

[CCDiscoB]

Anyone know what the real story is behing the EPQ scandal? I find it hard to believe the AF is removing 12 students for Flight only (each test different per Flight) weekly quizzes. At least that's how it used to be.
I wonder how this became such an issue. Was it the Flt/CC or the SQ/CC?

 

[Huggyu2]

I scanned the AF Times, and it looked like an IP was involved with giving them the test answers. In any case, I see the USAF's point, but the USAF needs to realize that they breed this somewhat in the UPT environment. How many times have you heard "if you ain't cheatin', you ain't tryin", or "currencies are just a pencil stroke away", etc... I'd be very surprised if the Wing or squadron leadership at Columbus claimed they never used a "pony" our "gouge" when taking an IRC test, ACSC test, etc... If it's true, great. Otherwise, it's a bit hypocritical. So what is to be done? Spank these guys hard, but reinstate them into UPT. I don't condone their actions, but you shouldn't allow it for decades and the decide all at once to crush a dozen folks.

 

[MarineGrunt]

It all had to do with students showing up with the exact answers to the exact test that they were taking. So I'm told. A whole flight got the boot (minus 2). I think one or two got kicked out of the AF completely. Anyway, it was a big, BIG deal.

You have to be very careful with what type of gouge you get these days. No one even mentions the "g" word anymore.

 

[K-Mart]

I scanned the AF Times, and it looked like an IP was involved with giving them the test answers. In any case, I see the USAF's point, but the USAF needs to realize that they breed this somewhat in the UPT environment. How many times have you heard "if you ain't cheatin', you ain't tryin", or "currencies are just a pencil stroke away", etc... I'd be very surprised if the Wing or squadron leadership at Columbus claimed they never used a "pony" our "gouge" when taking an IRC test, ACSC test, etc... If it's true, great. Otherwise, it's a bit hypocritical. So what is to be done? Spank these guys hard, but reinstate them into UPT. I don't condone their actions, but you shouldn't allow it for decades and the decide all at once to crush a dozen folks.[/QUOTE]



What's really going on here, is some Lt Col trying to get promoted due to a mistake made by a Capt and a few Lt's. The higher ups will applaud the SQ/CC for showing such incredible integrity and holding his people to a higher than high standard. The media in turn will report showing how the AF strictly enforces its integrity rules. Publicity like this is good damage control inlight of other scandals at places like the AF Academey.

 

[HoursHore]

I hope they Don't look at the Stan Eval pubs and see all the highlighted sections that happen to correspond to the IRC, and open book tests.

 

[Huggyu2]

I hope they Don't look at the Stan Eval pubs and see all the highlighted sections that happen to correspond to the IRC, and open book tests.

Shack! I forgot about that.

 

[RJP]

So all the "cooperate and graduate" we did is now BAD? Just one more reason I'm glad I got out.

 

[TankerPuke]

What's really going on here, is some Lt Col trying to get promoted due to a mistake made by a Capt and a few Lt's. The higher ups will applaud the SQ/CC for showing such incredible integrity and holding his people to a higher than high standard. The media in turn will report showing how the AF strictly enforces its integrity rules. Publicity like this is good damage control inlight of other scandals at places like the AF Academey.

I couldn't agree more. Re-dick-u-lous. I'll never forget when my entire class busted a Tweet EPQ and our USEM pounded on his desk saying, "You are not using all of your resources availible to you!" Fooking Zoomies

PUKE

 

[B-727]

Does anyone here believe that the virtues of honor and integrity are worth striving for? It seems that this discussion topic is slanted toward how unfair it was that a number of UPT students were dismissed.

Consider how you would feel about being operated on by a cardiac surgeon who cheated his way through medical school. Or how you, as a pilot, would react if you learned that your mechanic had falsified a required maintenance sign-off. Or how you, as a passenger, would feel if you knew that your captain had cheated his way through flight school because he was not interested enough to put in the time required to learn the foundations of his profession.

I acknowledge that none of us are perfect, yet there is value in trying to be so. In some professions, or lines of work, the consequences of dishonesty (or incompetence) can be measured in dollars lost (Enron, Worldcom, etc). In other professions, the consequences are literally life and death.

Perhaps the decision maker in the topic of this thread decided that the dismissed individuals were not only lacking in the character traits required of future leaders in positions of great responsibility, but also demonstrated a significant lack of interest in studying to learn the foundations of their future profession.

Is it really so bad that a commander would insist on adherance to a well known standard of integrity? Did any of those dismissed think that what they were doing was the "right" thing to do?

 

[TankerPuke]

Did any of those dismissed think that what they were doing was the "right" thing to do?

Quite possibly...yes. "as those that have gone before them..."


I don't think anyone in condoning what happened, I just think everyone feels quite a bit of sorrow for the individuals. I remember how much UPT meant to me, how difficult it was, the friends I made. All of it has been shoved down the toilet for a stupid move on their part.

As far as the CC - I have always had a problem with those "after a star". I don't know the details...but the whole class (except 2)??? When I was at UPT a lass was busted for the same thing - there was a test revolution, new EPQ's, new ROE, but nobody was kicked out. Disciplined, but not kicked out. Like I said, don't know the details, but sometimes I wonder...

PUKE

 

[Ih8AFYesmen]

Yep..... another one of those "desparate for O-6" making a move on the troops in the trenches. Step on whoever/whatever to shine; nothing ever changes! Cooperate to graduate has taken another whole new meaning. I'm guessing a lot of these geezards retire from the the military and become airline management.

 

[Batman]

More than just cheating...

There are many facts about the cheating scandal that have not been released. I will say that there was an inappropriate relationship going on between an IP and a student. This is probably the reason why the scandal went so high up the chain. Normally, Flight/Squadron CC's will take care of the situation in-house--Many of us graduates can attest to that. Since the Wing had to get involved, there is no they way could overlook the blatant cheating that was going on. It is one thing to have gouge, but it is a whole different thing to bring the actual test questions in to the test. In my opinion, some of the students should have been charged with stupidity rather than cheating.

 

[SIG600]

Wow... so much for classes looking after each other passing on gouge and helping each other out, in a genuine effort to see everyone succeed. If it wern't for gouge dissemination I know a LOT of dudes that would not be were they are today, and I'd be willing to be a months pay this LtCol was the recipient/user of gouge, and used the same system when he went through training.

 

[Fury220]

Everyone I know has been a part of "cooperate to graduate," but this went beyond that. Guys I talk to say that only a certain number of dudes had the "gouge" (read: actual test), and that it was kept from other people in the flight/class. Not cool, if you ask me.


Actually, there's a lot about this situation that's just not cool.

 

[talondriver]

There are many facts about the cheating scandal that have not been released. I will say that there was an inappropriate relationship going on between an IP and a student. This is probably the reason why the scandal went so high up the chain. Normally, Flight/Squadron CC's will take care of the situation in-house--Many of us graduates can attest to that. Since the Wing had to get involved, there is no they way could overlook the blatant cheating that was going on. It is one thing to have gouge, but it is a whole different thing to bring the actual test questions in to the test. In my opinion, some of the students should have been charged with stupidity rather than cheating.

Yes...there IS more to the situation.

We had to rework the testing process putting the test bank on a secure computer (which some geek stud will probably figure out in a couple of years). Then, AETC came by to check. I think they went to the other SUPT bases as well.

Half the class that went T-38 track were taken out of training. The guys that didn't get in trouble were T-6 students from Moody. The IP in question was yanked out of IFF.

The bottom line is stupid people wasted an opportunity of a lifetime.

 

[Fury220]

Yes...there IS more to the situation.

We had to rework the testing process putting the test bank on a secure computer (which some geek stud will probably figure out in a couple of years). Then, AETC came by to check. I think they went to the other SUPT bases as well.

Yep -- here at KSPS there's the computerized test bank, and all EPQ's have to be made from the MQF on that computer. The only IPs with the password, in fact, are Check Section guys. Line IPs are not allowed to have the password.


"When one guy craps his pants, everyone gets to wear diapers."

 

[Occam's Razor]

Geez! You mean the EIEIO at UPTH didn't CC the DINK?

Wow. When I was OCONUS in the USMC over in WESTPAC, we took NATOPS tests WAB. The CO never asked my RIO if that was A-OK, so WTF!

BAMCIS
FOCPIG
SMEAC
BOHICA
FIGMAC

Props to the first with all correct answers.

[Gets woozy reading too many acronyms...]

 

[Huggyu2]

TalonDriver,
This happened during T-38 phase, right? Also, you mentioned the IP getting pulled from IFF. I take it he left Columbus before all this got discovered, and they clipped him at Moody?

 

[MarineGrunt]

It happened when they were in Tweets, but it didn't catch up to them until they were in 38's and T-1s.

 

[SWAnnabee]

Wow. When I was OCONUS(Out of Continental U.S.) in the USMC (United States Marine Corps) over in WESTPAC (Western Pacific Theater of Operations), we took NATOPS (Naval Air Training Operations Procedures and Standardization) tests WAB. The CO (Commanding Officer) never asked my RIO (Radar Intercept Officer) if that was A-OK, so WTF (What The F--K)!

BAMCIS -Begin the planning, Arrange the recon, Make the recon, Complete the planning, Supervise No "I"
FOCPIG-Fire, Observed, Concealed, Protected, Integrated, non Geometric
SMEAC-Situation, Mission, Execution, Administration and logistics, Command and Signal)
BOHICA-Bend Over, Here It Comes Again
FIGMAC-????????

Oh well. Tired now. Must sleepofjsgoifdcsvgm lcvkxc .....................................

 

[TonyC]

I remember getting the gouge during the very first week of UPT. Back then, we called it the "Dash One."










.

 

[talondriver]

TalonDriver,
This happened during T-38 phase, right? Also, you mentioned the IP getting pulled from IFF. I take it he left Columbus before all this got discovered, and they clipped him at Moody?

The charges occured in phase three (T-38/T-1s) but the buffoonery happened in tweets. Apparently, students from other classes got their hands a little dirty but no charges were brought on them. It did prevent some of those students from FAIP assignments. Oh well. It would frustrate some if I said what one student got for an assignment.

The IP (FAIP) was going through IFF when the charges were slapped on him. He's back awaiting punishment.

 

[pkober]

UPT and all USAF course are based on a foundation of gouge. The USAF is sooooo hypocritical when it comes to this. Every course I have ever taken, and it's been alot, have started with comments from the instructors which went like this, " I just want to tell you that this course and all the tests haven't changed in five years" followed by the sounds of foot stomping.

Usually the people who complain the loudest about gouge are the ones who can't cope in the cockpit. The cockpit is the place where your true abilities come out. Not some test that was designed to test your test taking abilities. How many time do you see pilots who can spit back anything you tell them and shack every test they take but then can't figure out a holding entry?

If there is more to this story than so be it, but if this was just about "cheating" on an EPQ than its wrong.

My two cents.

CLAMBAKE

 

[Occam's Razor]

bozt45:

Wow. When I was OCONUS(Out of Continental U.S.) in the USMC (United States Marine Corps) over in WESTPAC (Western Pacific Theater of Operations), we took NATOPS (Naval Air Training and Operations Standardization) tests WAB. The CO (Commanding Officer) never asked my RIO (Radar Intercept Officer) if that was A-OK, so WTF (What The F--K)!

BAMCIS -Begin the planning, Arrange the recon, Make the recon, Complete the planning, Supervise No "I"
FOCPIG-Fire, Observed, Concealed, Protected, Integrated, non Geometric
SMEAC-Situation, Mission, Execution, Administration and logistics, Command and Signal)
BOHICA-Bend Over, Here It Comes Again
FIGMAC-????????

Not bad! The bubbas at TBS would be proud of you.

The one's you missed:

"WAB"= With a buddy. The rule in our squadron was you never flew without a wingman...cross-country, airshow, divert, etc.
"FOCPIG" = you were close. It's the principles for a defensive position: Fields of Fire, Obstacles, Concealment...
"FIGMAC" = F**K it...Got My Air Contract! (frequently heard during land nav at TBS)
"BAMCIS" = The "I" is for "Issue the order"

Semper Fi!

 

[talondriver]

UPT and all USAF course are based on a foundation of gouge. The USAF is sooooo hypocritical when it comes to this. Every course I have ever taken, and it's been alot, have started with comments from the instructors which went like this, " I just want to tell you that this course and all the tests haven't changed in five years" followed by the sounds of foot stomping. CLAMBAKE

You're right. We've all used gouges. But we never wanted to know where/whom/what or how it was compiled. I think these people (especially the IP accused) crossed that line between using a gouge or verbal intel from senior classes and blatant stealing of controlled items (AETC's equivalent to selling classified stuff). When you cross that line, the wing leadership has no choice but to throw the book.

 

[Goose17]

the extra mile

Gouge, it was good.


We went the extra mile and put a baby monitor in the IP room. Every morning they would go in there and lock the door. They would talk about the students as well as discuss that mornings "standup". They would discuss who would be selected that morning giving the individual about 10 minutes worth of excellent real time intel to get ahead of the battle.

All was well until the selected student was reading the exact page in his dash 1 when and instructor walked by. They got suspiscious and the next morning they all bolted from the IP room to find us huddled around a baby receiver producing nothing but static.

We were in trouble and we got our pee pees wacked, but the instructors all said on the side that they were quite impressed with our tactics.

I hope these guys survive.

Goose17

 

[CobraKai]

At least they came out of the room. Ours, after deciding the weather was not going to let us fly, bolted for breakfast burritos. It took about 10 minutes before we sent someone to check on them.

 

[K-Mart]

Gouge, it was good.


We went the extra mile and put a baby monitor in the IP room. Every morning they would go in there and lock the door. They would talk about the students as well as discuss that mornings "standup". They would discuss who would be selected that morning giving the individual about 10 minutes worth of excellent real time intel to get ahead of the battle.

All was well until the selected student was reading the exact page in his dash 1 when and instructor walked by. They got suspiscious and the next morning they all bolted from the IP room to find us huddled around a baby receiver producing nothing but static.

We were in trouble and we got our pee pees wacked, but the instructors all said on the side that they were quite impressed with our tactics.

I hope these guys survive.

Goose17

What a great class. Very impressive!!

While we don't know the whole story, I believe it is a bunch of garbage that students will be kicked out UPT and even worse the AF, over something like an EPQ. Totally pathetic. Good leadership, in my opinion, would take these Lts out back behind the hanger and give them a lesson. We should take better care of our own in the military. This is a key element of leadership.These kids deserve better. Emphasis kids.

 

[CCDiscoB]

...would feel if you knew that your captain had cheated his way through flight school...

I see what you're saying but that doesn't really apply. Cheating for a pilot would be having someone else fly your maneuvers. The weekly tests we're talking about are just a little "haze" AETC devised to add to the final grading criteria. When I went through our USEM in 38s wrote his own questions. The tests were not standardized and Friday afternoons were much better after you learned you passed the test. Apparently the tests are standardized command wide and getting an MQF would not be hard to do.

What student/IP relationship are we talking about? Was it dating each other? That would be bad. I wouldn't have allowed that in my flt.

 

[talondriver]

What student/IP relationship are we talking about? Was it dating each other? That would be bad. I wouldn't have allowed that in my flt.

We'll know for sure about the specifics after his court martial next month.

A quote from one of our "ol' skool" fighter pilots about co-ed squadrons:

"Back in the old days, if two pilots were dating each other we called them f*ggots!!"